Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

***Vic*** · 07-25-2009, 06:59 PM

(07-25-2009 06:51 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Vic,

That info above is all great, so thanks.

But let me ask what does it mean?

Obviously There are not all of these positions in the church that are not defined? Obviously there is some overlap and Paul is using different words that have similar meanings to describe the same offices? Dont ya think? Also I believe that a pastor shouldnt be conducting ministry for "filthy lucre". And Vic most of us would do our jobs for free, I would but my church has decided to give me a pay check. There is nothing wrong with that. Paul was condemning greed not pastoral compensation. An interpretation that suggests that Paul is condemning pastoral compensation would be based upon faulty and even reckless hermeneutics.

But what I need to you to do for me is this, please explain the difference between a pastor, and overseer, a presbyter, an elder, a a shepherd etc. It is clear to me and every seminary in the country that these terms mean something and that many of them are refering to the same office. There is divergence about whether a "bishop" is different etc. but the overwhelming consesus of Denominations, and Greek scholars believe that the pastoral ministry is mentioned and described in the above words. You cannot with it away. So please prove your point.

thanks

I wasn't proving anything or specifically discussing things, Chris. I simply presented information, scriptural and linguistics for clarification so readers have an idea on what the words mean, and can research it further if they wish.

Rose of Shushan · 07-25-2009, 07:22 PM

KJV Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Chris you are taking it upon yourself to say that those who rule over us in that verse are pastors.You are choosing to apply the rule over us part to pastors.But trhe word of God is for all and pastors are not our rulers.
I personally cannot accept this verse to mean pastors there, seriously.

Quote:it also says that They watch over your souls as those who will give an account

This means that they will be held accountable for your spiritual health. This means that God holds Pastors/leaders accountable, not disgruntled church members. At least this is God's model according to Hebrews. Then it basically says to make sure their job is not one that causes "grief". In other words, dont give them heartache while they are "watching over your souls".

[b]No, pastors are not accountable for my spiritual health although all of us will be held accountable if we teach false doctrine.consider this scripture

Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? or why do you despise your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

There it clearly says that each one of us shall give account of ourselves and in the Hebrews verse what I see there is that the rulers who lead the people to do evil will themselves give account of their own conduct as rulers.And if what they caused others to do evil of course he will be grieved on Judgement day.
At the time of writing this the people were not ruled by pastors.and as far as I know pastors have never ruled for the past 2000 years

Quote:1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 (NKJV)
12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

Again Paul tells the churches to recognize those who are "over you in the Lord" and to "esteem them very highly in love"

Where is the word pastors there also? Those over them in the Lord are probably mature believers and those like timothy or others who had probably more contact with the apostles and not just new converts in Christ.

Quote:1 Corinthians 16:14-18 (NKJV)
14 Let all that you do be done with love.
15 I urge you, brethren--you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints--
16 that you also submit to such, and to everyone who works and labors with us.
17 I am glad about the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, for what was lacking on your part they supplied.
18 For they refreshed my spirit and yours. Therefore acknowledge such men.

In the above verse Stephanus had obviously been set apart for ministry Paul asks the people to submit. I highly encourage a study of the greek word for "submit" in the scriptures, in means what it says.

Chris you think you are the only one in ministry? Or that only pastors are? We all have , or should have some type of ministry.Every believer has to discern how to use their talents in some form of ministry withion the body of Christ.. Why do you want us in a church? So that we can go and hear a sermon that the pastor spent a few hours preparing.And then you will expect me to tithe/give to that pastor? Quite frankly I have much better things to do with my time ,I save the pastor all those hours he could have been doing something else and my money is spent on a real ministry (mine ) reaching people and making a difference. .

Chris you then posted the verse from timothy where again the word elder is used not pastor. I consider an elder someone mature in the faith and with sound doctrine.We cannot just insert the title pastor everywhere, I believe its only mentioned once in the NT when not referring to Christ. (Someone correct me if Im wrong here)So how you can interpret all the verses you posted to be referring to pastors is beyond me.

Strefanash · 07-25-2009, 08:43 PM

The verse about not muzzling the ox is applicable here, and seem to imply that the pastor has the right to be paid. But I recall elsewhere that St Paul supported himself by his trade as a tentmaker and refused payment for his pastoral work even though he had a right to it.

I believe myself called to some kind of fulltime ministry some time in the future, but if my message is the free gift of God I would not be keen on weakening this by taking payment for my preaching.

So it seems that a pastor has the right to payment but St Paul refused payment lest he be seen to me making merchandize out of the gospel.

Certainly those televangelists with there hands out for money and sporting their big houses and gold watches (yes we have one in NZ too) are not of God and cause His name to be further blasphemed among the gentiles

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 07-25-2009 08:58 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Since when is an ox ever paid?

Quote:And again Paul teaches that Pastors who teach and preach and (rule well) should receive "double honor" . He goes onto say not to "muzzle the ox", clearly he is taking about pastoral compensation. The verse in context seems to be saying that those who rule well should be "doubly compensated". Whether or not you are comfortable with this or not the scripture teaches that Pastors who teach the Word well and rule well should be compensated well. What that means is open for debate but a paid ministry is absolutely taught.

I do not agree with your assumption that not muzzling the ox means pastoral compensation and that it teaches to compensate pastors well. The way I see this verse is that those who work for the gospels sake are allowed any perks of the job so to speak. These perks may take many form, food , a meal, clothing, financial gifts.But I see them as perks..same way that an ox would graze while treading.So for example, a missionary should not feel guilty to accept the gifts and hospitality of the brethren if that will enable him to continue his work.If Vic for example were to accept a donation from someone blessed by the ministry or if one of the people Ive helped along the line decides to repay me back with a generous gift, it would not be wrong to accept it. However for us to demand payment for what should be a free sharing of that which we have received freely, no way!!

~~pastor_chris~~ · 07-25-2009, 10:54 PM

Rose? Are you for real?

An ox is compensated with grain or corn, what is a human being compensated with? Is a person an ox? The compensation is a cultural decision. In africa it might be food, in America it is money. Every culture is different.

This is really ubelieveable. This must be motivated by a disdain for Pastors. I dont get it.

sheep wrecked · 07-25-2009, 11:10 PM

(07-25-2009 10:54 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Rose? Are you for real?

An ox is compensated with grain or corn, what is a human being compensated with? Is a person an ox? The compensation is a cultural decision. In africa it might be food, in America it is money. Every culture is different.

This is really ubelieveable. This must be motivated by a disdain for Pastors. I dont get it.

The ox is not compensated with grain or corn. They eat a ration of food fed to them by the "farmer". What they eat while they tread is "extra" - a little incentive so-to-speak Cow

Are you saying that if one is in America, one does not have to eat? Food baskets are quite popular here, as are food pantries, and projects to collect food for the needy. I would think that a "pastor" would be grateful if someone gave them food. I am not sure what culture has to do with it.

No one is disdaining pastors. You assume that because we do not agree with your perception, that we are against all pastors. You do not exactly exude a positive role model. Respect is earned - it is not a privilege 7100

~~pastor_chris~~ · 07-25-2009, 11:26 PM

Back at ya

sheep wrecked · 07-25-2009, 11:42 PM

(07-25-2009 11:26 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Back at ya

If I were you, I would definitely be scoping out an attitude adjustment. If you keep antagonizing the admins, your stay here is minimalized every time you post something derogatory.

Rose of Shushan · 07-26-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:Rose? Are you for real?

An ox is compensated with grain or corn, what is a human being compensated with? Is a person an ox? The compensation is a cultural decision. In africa it might be food, in America it is money. Every culture is different.

This is really ubelieveable. This must be motivated by a disdain for Pastors. I dont get it.

Thanks Sheep for explaining it to Chris. Chris, oxen are not compensated with food.As sheep pointed out they get their daily food as a need not a compensation.When they are treading the grain theyre not having their daily food supply,they are working! However if they wanna have a little nibble now and there in the process, then its ok.However it is not compensation for what they are doing..its a perk an extra .Let me try to give you another analogy that doesnt sound too silly.
Lets say you get a job at a wonderful luxury hotel with an awesome gym,luxury pools etc so your employer tells you that you have complete access to the amenities since you are an employee.However chris would you spend your time that you should be working there basking in the pool and having a sauna followed by a workout? Or do you instead take advantage of the "perks" by maybe a swim after you finish work. Or maybe go in half an hour early and then do your work out at their fantastic gym before your daily day starts.Do you see what I mean one would be taking advantage of your employer's generosity and the other would be taking advantage of his kind offer without abusing his generosity.

I dont know why you brought compensation into it because the ox wasnt getting compensated in the first place. He was working! And oxen dont get salaries Smile

what they eat while treading the grain is NOT compensation.

Chris I do not have a disdain for pastors.But now it seems you have disdain for women teaching and seeing as we are three women admins that does seem a bit comical.
Kudos to Vic for the patience she is having with you despite all the things you are saying to her.But that goes to show you Chris that she is not eager to ban you as you seem to think! She genuinely wants, as we all do, to discuss Scripture with you and what the Scriptures say on the topics you choose to involve yourself in. However you seem to be trying at all costs to get yourself that ban.Is it cos you dont want to continue here among women who you think have no place in teaching?

Mark · 07-26-2009, 09:16 AM

I guess I am very surprised at the negative attitude of a pastor here. If I were attending a church where the pastor felt this dissatisfied with the fact that they are not making enough money, I would definitely be seeking another church. Jesus NEVER took this kind of attitude. I never heard Him complaining about not being compensated enough. In fact I believe I recall Him saying that "but the Son of Man hath not where to lay His head", yet He did not demand that He be compensated more than anyone else.
As far as American's needing money and African's needing food, I strongly disagree. There are many Americans living under bridges, in cardboard boxes, in overcrowded shelters, or wherever they can find, and I am quite sure that if someone were to offer them $100 or a hot meal and a place to stay, they would gladly accept the latter. The money will be gone quickly, but the security of shelter and food lasts longer and offers them fellowship as well. People are too ready to hand out money and think that takes care of the problem. Does money solve lonliness or depression? "For the love of money is the root of all evil". I think that statement is even truer in churches today.