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Karebear
08-09-2009, 04:12 AM
Post: #1
Karebear
Greetings,
Firstly i would like to say that i found this website because i googled "hebrew roots".
I have been attending a hebrew roots church for about a month now, one that my mother has attended for over 5 years. I have deep respect for my mother as she has been a Christian for a long time and has always studied her bible daily, since leaving mormonism when i was very young. She is very aware of the signs of a cult and can spot one a mile away.
I have been a Christian nearly my whole life and as a teenager became an avid reader of scripture and have had a great interest in understanding other religeons and cultures and history, so i suppose the hebrew roots appeals to me for that reason.
I was saddened to read the negative commentary on this site regarding the hebrew roots movement, but not suprised as i have learned that there are some groups who use this name and are really way off base from scripture, even denying that Jesus is the son of God, one with God.
I would love to express my opinion here if it will be heard with an open heart and mind.
I am new to this kind of teaching and yet it is not new. It consists of the same bible, the same translations (King James, NIV etc) that i grew up with and studied. I am not finding any change in doctrine but a shift in perspective which really brings it all together more clearly.
I hope that any of you who have decided to reject this perspective will reconsider, so that if God is willing you will see what a blessing it is!
I would love to share my testimony if anyone is willing to hear.
I hope you will take me at my word when i say that I have not changed my religeon or my foundation in the word of God and Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but I am learning to understand things more clearly which before did not always make sense or ring true, and often caused confusion. The bible is one book, old and new testament and the entire bible reveals Gods plan for salvation for us. It is not only the new testament that is for instruction, but the whole word of God. In your articles about Hebrew Roots you quoted many scriptures and each one of them, as I read them confirms to me that the Hebrew Roots movement (at least the one that i am learning from)
is correct and true! I am perplexed that we can see the same scripture so differently, for example you quote this scripture:


Galatians 1:9

"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Now as i understand this scripture and the other warnings that were given, this is a warning against new and different gospels being brought in to the church. This was speaking to the early church, the first christians, who were primarily Jewish and had been raised according to the Torah and all of the Jewish customs. The entire new testament is perfectly aligned and in agreement with the old testament, in fact there is nothing in the new testament that is not in the old. Jesus did say that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfull it. You may not know that the word Law in the King James is translated from Torah, and Torah actually means instruction. So all of the 10 commandments are not abolished but are still good for us today.

2 Timothy 3:13-17:
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be throughly furnished unto all good works."
The Holy Scriptures that they learned as children were the Torah, better known as the 5 books of Moses! So they were to use that basis to identify false teaching.
That is what I am learning and it is easy for me to see that this is plainly and simply true.
Anyone who studies the history of the church knows that church doctrines changed dramatically over the next several hundred years, to the point where it hardly resembles the first church. This is what was warned of! There is so much paganism, greek philosophy etc embedded in modern day christianity and many Christians do not even know it.
But it is time for the church to wake up and return to the original pure gospel. When we read it we have to read it in context of the people and the times it was written in, and then apply it to our modern lives, not the other way around. God gave the 10 commandments and covenents in the right order, so why do you want to read the bible backwards? God did not make a mistake!
I think that when whoever wrote these arguments against the hebrew roots movement researched it, they did not do it with the honest intent to make an objective and logical study, but rather to find ways to disprove it.
I am not smarter than anyone else, but I see it as so simple to understand.
The early church was warned of false doctrines and false messiahs that would come, and they did come and are still coming, but to return to the same teaching, and understand the life and times of that first church cannot be described as such, that just makes no sense.
There are many lies even being spread about the hebrew roots movement (I am not directing an accusation at this site). My own pastor was recently accused of saying and teaching things that are so untrue and rediculously opposite of the truth of what he teaches.
In fact each sermon consists of a study of a section of the old testament (called a torah portion) and within that study we include corresponding scripture from the new testament, so the two are confirming one another. There is harmony in Gods Word, and there is beauty and meaning in His traditions. So I hope that if anyone has closed off there mind to the idea of learning about our faith from a Hebrew mindset (the same mindset the apostles and early church!) I hope you will reconsider, because it has much to offer and you dont need to fear that you will be following a different Jesus. His mother called him Yeshua. Jesus is what we call him in English. Who has changed his name?
Have you considered the possibility that Satan doesnt want the church to know about the value of its jewish roots? Wouldnt he try to smear the reputation with lies and false teachers who corrupt the truth?
I feel as if The Church ( as a larger institution) as robbed me of so much valuable insight and replaced it with centuries of false doctrine which now has to be waded through and filtered out, in order to present a spotless bride to Christ when he returns.
What is wrong with accepting that God chose the descendants of Abraham for a divine purpose? He made covenents with them that He swore to keep forever. This does not make me want to be a Jew, but it makes me want to be on the same side God is on, which is on the side of the Jews. I know that every promise he made to them now applies to me, to the Jew first and to the Gentile. I know that I can observe the sabbath and it pleases God, and it pleases me too. It is a joy, not a burden.
So, i have written a whole article myself im afraid! I am sorry my first post is so long and i hope that it does not disturb anyone. I know that you all love the Lord as i do and i only hope that there will be unity among us and not discord. So when i see the negative light being shed on what i believe to be true and good, i want to defend the faith in love.
Blessings
Karebear
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08-09-2009, 12:34 PM
Post: #2
RE: Please Introduce Yourself!
(08-09-2009 04:12 AM)karebear Wrote:  Greetings,
Firstly i would like to say that i found this website because i googled "hebrew roots".
I have been attending a hebrew roots church for about a month now, one that my mother has attended for over 5 years. I have deep respect for my mother as she has been a Christian for a long time and has always studied her bible daily, since leaving mormonism when i was very young. She is very aware of the signs of a cult and can spot one a mile away.
I have been a Christian nearly my whole life and as a teenager became an avid reader of scripture and have had a great interest in understanding other religeons and cultures and history, so i suppose the hebrew roots appeals to me for that reason.
I was saddened to read the negative commentary on this site regarding the hebrew roots movement, but not suprised as i have learned that there are some groups who use this name and are really way off base from scripture, even denying that Jesus is the son of God, one with God.
I would love to express my opinion here if it will be heard with an open heart and mind.
I am new to this kind of teaching and yet it is not new. It....So, i have written a whole article myself im afraid! I am sorry my first post is so long and i hope that it does not disturb anyone. I know that you all love the Lord as i do and i only hope that there will be unity among us and not discord. So when i see the negative light being shed on what i believe to be true and good, i want to defend the faith in love.
Blessings
Karebear

HornHorn Smilies-30066 Karebear,

Quote: I was saddened to read the negative commentary on this site regarding the hebrew roots movement, but not suprised as i have learned that there are some groups who use this name and are really way off base from scripture, even denying that Jesus is the son of God, one with God.
I would love to express my opinion here if it will be heard with an open heart and mind.
I am new to this kind of teaching and yet it is not new.

First, let's be clear that you are not here to teach anyone. Having read your 3 posts, you are not off to a good start of wanting to discuss anything with anyone.

What is coming across is that you think this website, and forum are in serious error concerning Hebrew Roots, and Biblical truth. Since you claim to have been in the Hebrew Roots movement or church only a month, you are not an expert on the beliefs, the biblical truths being overturned, nor do you understand why it is wrong. I would highly recommend that you spend time reading the vast amount of discussion of all the beliefs with the biblical refutations as to the error.


Quote:I think that when whoever wrote these arguments against the hebrew roots movement researched it, they did not do it with the honest intent to make an objective and logical study, but rather to find ways to disprove it.

Well, karebear, that 'dishonest' intended person was me. I have researched HR since 1998, with full intent at seeking TRUTH. I think I probably know a little bit about HR. And if you had read the initial To Embrace Hebrew Roots series on my site, you would know I had been asked to join a couple of HR groups and was given particular information. However, proving all things to the Scriptures and factually revealed error upon error. Icon_runforhills

For someone who has been so shortly involved you seem to have the propaganda down pretty pat. Smilies-34791

So here's your first wake up call. Snapoutofit

Torah--is not just the first 5 books of the Bible-which consists of 66 books. Jesus referenced the Law and the Prophets---all the OT. Guess you missed that in HR 101.Sign0007

Next. Jesus brought in the NEW covenant, not Renewed, and with the change of Priesthood---He is our High Priest, came a change in the law--which is written on our hearts. Read Hebrews. In fact, every time Jesus said, it has been written and then said, but I say unto you...He made a new commandment--not in the Mosaic law. 15249

So....you need to do some serious reading in the articles and on this forum before you will be allowed to continue. Because. Sheep and Rose--the other admins of the forum- were both involved aka part of the Messianic/ Hebrew Roots movements...and they too know it inside and out. 5522

What you bring is not new---there is nothing new under the sun. What you bring is indeed another gospel and for many in HR, another Jesus. Shame5


So you are clear > the Messianic/HR forums and related information/discussion are:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=9 there's 60 plus threads to get acquainted with

HR leaders etc:
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=29
20 plus threads

From the Christianity section : Are Paul's Writings Scripture?

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=8

Tithing > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=116

In the Bible versions section--see the didache, shem tov, \LXX, David Sterns Complete Jewish Bible, The ISR, Translational Inconsistencies

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=8

The Bible - Language and History---most threads apply

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=10


From my website---which according to you is "biased"--which means direct quotes from sources and proving or disproving to the Scriptures and factually is being biased....

http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm ALL articles and series

http://www.seekgod.ca/topichrministries.htm#ml ALL series


There's more after you have caught up and actually read and noted the Scriptures, source quotes and footnotes. Yes

I would also recommend rereading the Forum Rules which you agreed to upons your signing up. Just as a reminder. 17434

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=28

Btw Th_- to our group.
Crowd

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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08-09-2009, 05:07 PM
Post: #3
RE: Please Introduce Yourself!
Wow....
Well, i can see that this is not the friendly discussion that i had hoped it would be. I had to walk away for a while to calm my hurt feelings at your response. It was not my desire to engage in argument or to try to teach but to simply present my own opinion and experience for concideration, as i don't claim to know it all, ever!
I can see that nothing i say here will be even concidered as worth discussing. Especially after reading so much of the writings on your site, it is clear that you are very intelligent and studious but also completely convinced that you alone are qualified to read and understand scripture. It is sad that you feel the duty to expose false teachings and yet are unable to concider the possibility that you too may be capable of being mistaken, or that you may be able to learn something new which will enrich your understanding of scripture. I always like to remember to take the mote out of my own eye before trying to remove the speck out of anothers. It is good advice from our savior which keeps us from being blinded by our own self confidence.
Of course the church as a whole is so imperfect and none of us has a perfect understanding of the scriptures, and we do not all agree, but in love we should search out the truth and help one another, and if one of us sees another going the wrong way we should correct them in love, just as the early christians did. I dont know if you mean to, but you do not come off loving at all, but rather seem to take joy in tearing others down. Your words were very hurtful to me, when i tried to open a dialogue with you in a friendly way (and i am sorry if i seemed to call you dishonest, that was not my intent).
If your response had come of an attitude of truly desiring to study out the truth with me, we could have had a lively discussion which would certainly bring new understanding to everyone, as always happens when the bible is studied with a heart to learn. But instead you have struck down your gavel and passed your judgment and proclaimed that this way is wrong and that i should therefore study your writings as proof of that.
The more i read your commentary on Hebrew Roots (and some of your other commentaries) the more i know that what you are talking about is not what I have seen or experienced in my walk. I've seen some ministries get off base but the examples you give are all so extreme! It is not fair to say that "just looking at the homepage" of El Shaddai...you see all the warning signs (or whatever it was you said to that effect). I have not studied the same Hebrew Roots teachings that you have, I have only studied from El Shaddai and another website which is hugely informative called Hebrew4christians, and of course have always read the old testament and the new. The thing is that most of the old testament was hard to understand because its such a different culture! Now that i have begun to understand it more, the whole bible is much more clear and the new testament is even better! It proves what a miricle of revelation the entire word of God is! Its amazing and onlly confirms again and again that Jesus is the Messiah!
You should be more careful, because to blashpheme the holy spirit is to call what is holy unholy, and it would be a tragic mistake on your part if you were doing that because you condemn something you dont fully understand.
I am sorry if i broke your rules. I did read them and thought that i was following them, but apparently to disagree is to break the rules, and so, since it is my opinion that you are making the mistake of lumping all hebrew roots, pentacostal, charismatic and evangelical ministries together with some that have clearly gone off the deep end of the truth of Gods word and given the whole bunch a bad rap, as all being the same evil deception of satan, then I am clearly in the wrong discussion forum and will now say goodbye.
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08-09-2009, 06:10 PM
Post: #4
RE: Please Introduce Yourself!
(08-09-2009 05:07 PM)karebear Wrote:  Wow....
Well, i can see that this is not the friendly discussion that i had hoped it would be. I had to walk away for a while to calm my hurt feelings at your response. It was not my desire to engage in argument or to try to teach but to simply present my own opinion and experience for concideration, as i don't claim to know it all, ever!
I can see that nothing i say here will be even concidered as worth discussing. Especially after reading so much of the writings on your site, it is clear that you are very intelligent and studious but also completely convinced that you alone are qualified to read and understand scripture. It is sad that you feel the duty to expose false teachings and yet are unable to concider the possibility that you too may be capable of being mistaken, or that you may be able to learn something new which will enrich your understanding of scripture. I always like to remember to take the mote out of my own eye before trying to remove the speck out of anothers. It is good advice from our savior which keeps us from being blinded by our own self confidence.
Of course the church as a whole is so imperfect and none of us has a perfect understanding of the scriptures, and we do not all agree, but in love we should search out the truth and help one another, and if one of us sees another going the wrong way we should correct them in love, just as the early christians did. I dont know if you mean to, but you do not come off loving at all, but rather seem to take joy in tearing others down. Your words were very hurtful to me, when i tried to open a dialogue with you in a friendly way (and i am sorry if i seemed to call you dishonest, that was not my intent).
If your response had come of an attitude of truly desiring to study out the truth with me, we could have had a lively discussion which would certainly bring new understanding to everyone, as always happens when the bible is studied with a heart to learn. But instead you have struck down your gavel and passed your judgment and proclaimed that this way is wrong and that i should therefore study your writings as proof of that.
The more i read your commentary on Hebrew Roots (and some of your other commentaries) the more i know that what you are talking about is not what I have seen or experienced in my walk. I've seen some ministries get off base but the examples you give are all so extreme! It is not fair to say that "just looking at the homepage" of El Shaddai...you see all the warning signs (or whatever it was you said to that effect). I have not studied the same Hebrew Roots teachings that you have, I have only studied from El Shaddai and another website which is hugely informative called Hebrew4christians, and of course have always read the old testament and the new. The thing is that most of the old testament was hard to understand because its such a different culture! Now that i have begun to understand it more, the whole bible is much more clear and the new testament is even better! It proves what a miricle of revelation the entire word of God is! Its amazing and onlly confirms again and again that Jesus is the Messiah!
You should be more careful, because to blashpheme the holy spirit is to call what is holy unholy, and it would be a tragic mistake on your part if you were doing that because you condemn something you dont fully understand.
I am sorry if i broke your rules. I did read them and thought that i was following them, but apparently to disagree is to break the rules, and so, since it is my opinion that you are making the mistake of lumping all hebrew roots, pentacostal, charismatic and evangelical ministries together with some that have clearly gone off the deep end of the truth of Gods word and given the whole bunch a bad rap, as all being the same evil deception of satan, then I am clearly in the wrong discussion forum and will now say goodbye.

Karebear, you need to stop playing the victim. It's really inappropriate. Smack You came on dissing the forum and my website. And you continue to do so in this response. 6788

Fyi IF you had taken the time to read the threads you would have seen discussion with and among many people --who agree and disagree. If the object was to have only someone who agreed on everything with me, I certainly would not have a website or a forum, and allow people to contact me at all. Reaction

You say in this your month of incredible growth in understanding in HR you can acknowledge there are some bad ones. But your experience has been good. Here's the thing. We have combined roughly 20 years of the admins dealing with or involved in Hebrew roots. And Sheep particularly was involved with many many of the HR ministries---as a follower. I have an extensive library of the many teachings, video, audio, books, website teachings and so on. Do you really think we don't get it? Interview

You don't want dialogue, unless it's to bring others into what you have become entangled in. Therefore to you, to not be in agreement with you, is to be unloving. To point you to the Truth in the Scriptures, show facts and so on, to you is an unloving attack. Smiley-cooloff If I didn't care, Karebear, I simply would have deleted your posts.

Your analysis of me is inconsequential. From what I can see, all you want is to promote what you now call truth. That isn't coming to dialogue. That's coming with an agenda. People can read your posts. They aren't blind. And neither are we. This is a research and apologetics forum and website, Karebear. 13666

Now, if you had wanted to come and discuss, you might have started out by saying you had become involved in the HR movement the last month and are surprised by the extensive discussion and research on here and the website, and are confused why there would be such a difference of opinion and belief over this. 10167

Instead you came and made statements which showed you were going to promote your beliefs, while stating those who didn't agree were, "dishonest', biased" not looking for the truth, not understanding the truth, didn't know the Scriptures, shouldn't be listened to, but you should be, etc' Smilies-34787

You haven't even proven you know Christ. We are called to try the spirits and prove all to the Word of God. What you are promoting doesn't pass the test of Scripture. Th_smiley_nope

Take a look at a former HR leader, who wrote me:

http://www.seekgod.ca/hrarticle.htm

The whole premise of the Scriptures being hard to understand until you get into Hebrew Roots is false...and contrary to Scriptures.

Here's why.
Th_ththink

2 Peter 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

2 Peter 1:1-11 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:13-17 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


You might want to check back at your other posts, because I believe Sheep and Rose intend to answer. If you are interested in dialogue. Th_emotionsshrug

Vic
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3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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08-09-2009, 06:50 PM
Post: #5
RE: Karebear
again i say Wow! If i did not come here to look at other opinions then why have i been reading the posts? Why did i read through so much of your writings? Again i apologise i did not intend to call you dishonest.
"Now, if you had wanted to come and discuss, you might have started out by saying you had become involved in the HR movement the last month and are surprised by the extensive discussion and research on here and the website, and are confused why there would be such a difference of opinion and belief over this."
This is essentially what i did mean to say, although you have worded it differently, my intent is/was exactly that.
I did not come on here looking for someone to beat up, i came here to learn something.
And in reading more posts on this subject i have learned that others experiences are not similar to my own.
You keep pointing out that i am so new to HR but i am only new to the fellowship, where as i said my mother has been attending for over 5 years and she has been educating me and i have studied on my own.
How you expect me to prove that I know Jesus I have no idea...how is that done exactly?
I was Born again and 15 and I am led by the spirit of God. I believe the whole bible is the word of God.
Maybe, just maybe the entire HR movement is not bad, maybe just the ones you have studied. Maybe satan had done a really good job of distortiing and corrupting the truth? Just like he did the the RCC...he is after all the father of lies.
Do we through out the baby with the bathwater (the baby being the word of God and the bathwater being false doctrines?)
And as for reading the threads...well i am reading as fast as i can, but its a lot of threads so forgive me if i have not read everything you have written yet.
And as for playing the victim...well you reallly are coming across as very mean spirited, even your smileys are sarcastic.
So, i suppose im probably close to getting banned and thats okay. I have seen enough. I know now that what you are all attacking is not what i am into, so i'll be sure to watch out for those other HR teachings with are not scriptual. so i'm good. Thanks.
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08-09-2009, 07:04 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2009 07:13 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #6
RE: Karebear
Karebear,

Your words are bewitching to some, but I am not bewitched.

Jesus Christ is the end of the law to them that believe.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

It is because He fulfilled it and we cannot.

You, yourself cannot keep the commandments and you yourself cannot keep the law. You have failed to keep the law and therefore since that is what you trust in, then you are under condemnation.

So, I don't see how keeping the law and walking by Faith are in agreement. You cannot trust in your own righteousness and Christ's righteousness at the same time.

I do see, however, that loving one another fulfills the law.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.


Meditate on this and tell me what it means to you.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Karebear, we cannot BEAR the yoke that you are trying to put on us. No one has EVER been able to bear this yoke. Where do you people come from and why doesn't the simplicity of Jesus Christ and the Scriptures speak to you?

Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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08-09-2009, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2009 07:35 PM by karebear.)
Post: #7
RE: Karebear
yes, i agree with you. Did i say that by keeping the law i am saved? I know that i am saved by grace alone, by the blood of Jesus alone. Does that mean that its okay to lie or steal or commit adultery?
As for the Sabbath day wasnt it the RCC that changed it to Sunday for their own agenda (and how can one calculate that Christ rose on a Sunday?) Is it wrong for me to want to keep the seventh day holy and set it apart from the other days?
I understand that the Gentiles were not under the Law of Moses, and do not take the law onto myself but to simply obey the 10 commandments is not difficult at all, and it is good an actually pretty universal. I want to keep them to show my gratitude for the sacrifice that Christ made to save me, its the least i can do! This is not legalism, this is my expression of love and respect to God. I know that his law is good for me.
Now if i fail Jesus blood is sufficient to cover me and the holy spirit helps me do better. I'm not trying to earn it or anything else. I struggled with that as a new christian some 30 years ago and i've been over it for a long time. I know I am saved by Grace and God will change me into who he wants me to be without my interference! I belong to Him and He is in control.
I can do nothing but fail by myself.
I realize that there is much more to "the law" than the 10 commandments, and that the rest is useful for teaching, and that i am not bound to it. I'm not afraid to eat Bacon for example.
Im not afraid to put a Christmas Tree in my house, because I know that I am not doing it as a pagan ritual, but i am fully aware that it is not something commanded by God for us to do either. I see it as a secular holiday and a time to remember Christs birth, even though he wasnt actually born in December. I already prayed about that and searched the Scriptures about it when my mom decided it wasnt for her. And that is her choice and i respect it.
I am not under the Law. I am free in Christ.
My words are bewitching? I hope you are saying what it sounds like your saying...am i now being accused of witchcraft?
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08-09-2009, 08:53 PM
Post: #8
RE: Karebear
(08-09-2009 07:27 PM)karebear Wrote:  My words are bewitching? I hope you are saying what it sounds like your saying...am i now being accused of witchcraft?

Karebear, Heb13 was referring to this when he used the word of bewitching. No one is accusing you of witchcraft. You should know these Scriptures, I would think:

Galatians 3:1-11 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4. Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

If I understand you, you on the hand say you are keeping the law, then just the ten commandments. No one can keep the law as God decreed through Moses. If you think you can, you need to read them all, and then list all the ones you do not keep. And where do you do the required sacrifices for sin, and other issues, with no Temple in Jerusalem? Aside from all the other laws that anyone who claims to keep the law MUST keep. Incidently. Christians, those who belong to Jesus Christ do not make a habit of lying, cheating, murdering, committing adultery and such. Because of the New covenant and the law written on our hearts and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There's over a thousand do's and don'ts in the NT. Have you really taken a close look at those issues and seen that? Our righteousness is only because of Christ. Th_ththink

Vic
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3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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08-09-2009, 09:00 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2009 09:02 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #9
RE: Karebear
(08-09-2009 07:27 PM)karebear Wrote:  yes, i agree with you. Did i say that by keeping the law i am saved? I know that i am saved by grace alone, by the blood of Jesus alone. Does that mean that its okay to lie or steal or commit adultery?

If one tries to keep the old covenant and then state or imply that by keeping it one is truly obedient to Christ, then indeed keeping the law has become a salvation issue. By keeping Torah, one is not saved by grace alone, one actually is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Quote:As for the Sabbath day wasnt it the RCC that changed it to Sunday for their own agenda (and how can one calculate that Christ rose on a Sunday?) Is it wrong for me to want to keep the seventh day holy and set it apart from the other days?

No one "changed the Sabbath to Sunday". The new believers were celebrating the resurrection of Christ. He arose on the first day of the week according to Scripture aka Sunday, on today's calendar. In the 4th century, Sunday was made the official day of worship to FORMALIZE what was already practiced for over 300 years by believers of all nations, including Jewish believers.

Quote:I understand that the Gentiles were not under the Law of Moses, and do not take the law onto myself but to simply obey the 10 commandments is not difficult at all, and it is good an actually pretty universal. I want to keep them to show my gratitude for the sacrifice that Christ made to save me, its the least i can do! This is not legalism, this is my expression of love and respect to God. I know that his law is good for me.

If you are keeping the 10 commandments out of gratitude, I think you are missing a bit. The 10 commandments are the Laws of God pertaining to righteousness and holiness. Keeping the commandments may be an expression of love, but not the foundation for it. And, perhaps you didn't notice, but the 10 commandments all changed as taught in the new testament by Jesus and the disciples. According to Torah, one cannot do this. So, did Jesus have the authority to do so? and the greater question is why?

hint: new covenant under a new High Priesthood.


Quote:Now if i fail Jesus blood is sufficient to cover me and the holy spirit helps me do better. I'm not trying to earn it or anything else. I struggled with that as a new christian some 30 years ago and i've been over it for a long time. I know I am saved by Grace and God will change me into who he wants me to be without my interference! I belong to Him and He is in control.
I can do nothing but fail by myself.

Then why are you interfering with God by keeping a covenant that has been broken and replaced? Why makes you think that by keeping the Law God can change you? The Law does not change anyone. We are new creatures in Christ - His Law, the Law of Christ - is written on the heart, not Torah.

Quote:I realize that there is much more to "the law" than the 10 commandments, and that the rest is useful for teaching, and that i am not bound to it. I'm not afraid to eat Bacon for example.
Im not afraid to put a Christmas Tree in my house, because I know that I am not doing it as a pagan ritual, but i am fully aware that it is not something commanded by God for us to do either. I see it as a secular holiday and a time to remember Christs birth, even though he wasnt actually born in December. I already prayed about that and searched the Scriptures about it when my mom decided it wasnt for her. And that is her choice and i respect it.
I am not under the Law. I am free in Christ.

So what I think you are saying is that it is up to you to decide which laws you keep and which ones you ignore, which ones you add and which ones you change to fit your lifestyle, regardless if they are "pagan" or not. Whoa - that is definitely Torah observantTh_57cb9f3e
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08-15-2009, 04:51 PM
Post: #10
RE: Karebear
(08-09-2009 09:00 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  
(08-09-2009 07:27 PM)karebear Wrote:  yes, i agree with you. Did i say that by keeping the law i am saved? I know that i am saved by grace alone, by the blood of Jesus alone. Does that mean that its okay to lie or steal or commit adultery?

If one tries to keep the old covenant and then state or imply that by keeping it one is truly obedient to Christ, then indeed keeping the law has become a salvation issue. By keeping Torah, one is not saved by grace alone, one actually is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Quote:As for the Sabbath day wasnt it the RCC that changed it to Sunday for their own agenda (and how can one calculate that Christ rose on a Sunday?) Is it wrong for me to want to keep the seventh day holy and set it apart from the other days?

No one "changed the Sabbath to Sunday". The new believers were celebrating the resurrection of Christ. He arose on the first day of the week according to Scripture aka Sunday, on today's calendar. In the 4th century, Sunday was made the official day of worship to FORMALIZE what was already practiced for over 300 years by believers of all nations, including Jewish believers.

Quote:I understand that the Gentiles were not under the Law of Moses, and do not take the law onto myself but to simply obey the 10 commandments is not difficult at all, and it is good an actually pretty universal. I want to keep them to show my gratitude for the sacrifice that Christ made to save me, its the least i can do! This is not legalism, this is my expression of love and respect to God. I know that his law is good for me.

If you are keeping the 10 commandments out of gratitude, I think you are missing a bit. The 10 commandments are the Laws of God pertaining to righteousness and holiness. Keeping the commandments may be an expression of love, but not the foundation for it. And, perhaps you didn't notice, but the 10 commandments all changed as taught in the new testament by Jesus and the disciples. According to Torah, one cannot do this. So, did Jesus have the authority to do so? and the greater question is why?

hint: new covenant under a new High Priesthood.


Quote:Now if i fail Jesus blood is sufficient to cover me and the holy spirit helps me do better. I'm not trying to earn it or anything else. I struggled with that as a new christian some 30 years ago and i've been over it for a long time. I know I am saved by Grace and God will change me into who he wants me to be without my interference! I belong to Him and He is in control.
I can do nothing but fail by myself.

Then why are you interfering with God by keeping a covenant that has been broken and replaced? Why makes you think that by keeping the Law God can change you? The Law does not change anyone. We are new creatures in Christ - His Law, the Law of Christ - is written on the heart, not Torah.

Quote:I realize that there is much more to "the law" than the 10 commandments, and that the rest is useful for teaching, and that i am not bound to it. I'm not afraid to eat Bacon for example.
Im not afraid to put a Christmas Tree in my house, because I know that I am not doing it as a pagan ritual, but i am fully aware that it is not something commanded by God for us to do either. I see it as a secular holiday and a time to remember Christs birth, even though he wasnt actually born in December. I already prayed about that and searched the Scriptures about it when my mom decided it wasnt for her. And that is her choice and i respect it.
I am not under the Law. I am free in Christ.

So what I think you are saying is that it is up to you to decide which laws you keep and which ones you ignore, which ones you add and which ones you change to fit your lifestyle, regardless if they are "pagan" or not. Whoa - that is definitely Torah observantTh_57cb9f3e

Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
your statement: "By keeping Torah, one is not saved by grace alone, one actually is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross"
I chose to believe scripture.

you said "No one "changed the Sabbath to Sunday" and then followed by "..Sunday was made the official day of worship..." First you said by "no one" and then you said that someone authorized it. Who. Where is "thus saith the Lord" And then I would ask WWJD?
It seems that Karebears is correct in her understandings and I don't understand youre devaluing the commandments of God.
And then there was your use in "Free in Christ" .. is that free to keep on sinning? or by expunging our sentence by repenting from our sins, and of-course sins are disobedience to the Law
The Messiah said: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
There seems to be no question as to what Law He is talking about and He did not come to abolish it but to fulfill. I would be careful about teaching others to break, even the smallest part, Gods Law
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