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Karebear
08-15-2009, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 08-15-2009 07:34 PM by Vic.)
Post: #11
RE: Karebear
(08-15-2009 04:51 PM)stormy Wrote:  ....
Quote:I realize that there is much more to "the law" than the 10 commandments, and that the rest is useful for teaching, and that i am not bound to it. I'm not afraid to eat Bacon for example.
Im not afraid to put a Christmas Tree in my house, because I know that I am not doing it as a pagan ritual, but i am fully aware that it is not something commanded by God for us to do either. I see it as a secular holiday and a time to remember Christs birth, even though he wasnt actually born in December. I already prayed about that and searched the Scriptures about it when my mom decided it wasnt for her. And that is her choice and i respect it.
I am not under the Law. I am free in Christ.

So what I think you are saying is that it is up to you to decide which laws you keep and which ones you ignore, which ones you add and which ones you change to fit your lifestyle, regardless if they are "pagan" or not. Whoa - that is definitely Torah observantTh_57cb9f3e

Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
your statement: "By keeping Torah, one is not saved by grace alone, one actually is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross"
I chose to believe scripture.

you said "No one "changed the Sabbath to Sunday" and then followed by "..Sunday was made the official day of worship..." First you said by "no one" and then you said that someone authorized it. Who. Where is "thus saith the Lord" And then I would ask WWJD?
It seems that Karebears is correct in her understandings and I don't understand youre devaluing the commandments of God.
And then there was your use in "Free in Christ" .. is that free to keep on sinning? or by expunging our sentence by repenting from our sins, and of-course sins are disobedience to the Law
The Messiah said: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
There seems to be no question as to what Law He is talking about and He did not come to abolish it but to fulfill. I would be careful about teaching others to break, even the smallest part, Gods Law
[/quote]

Th_airplane stormy, Storm

Before you post further, I would highly recommend you take the time to read the same threads karebear was encouraged to read. In post 2 of this thread. Please do that. Because you are parroting the HR propaganda and misuse and misunderstanding of Scripture, and false accusation concerning those who belong to Christ advocating going and having a free for all sinfest. Gaah

Christians do not make a habit of murdering, stealing, committing adultery, lying cheating....you know...those sin issues. Foot

You appear to claim to keep all the Mosaic Law. And my challenge to you is, make a list of all the ones you DO NOT keep, all of them. And I can guarantee you do not , nor can you keep all the law----which means you violate the command to keep all of them, and incur the curses for not. Because that is part of the Old covenant commandments. Fyi And you can't keep the feasts without giving sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem. Do you do that?

Jesus brought the promised new covenant....not a renewed one. And he brought a new law, along with the new priesthood---as it says in Hebrews. Rest in Him is what is required---every day....not just a one day issue. You also need to comprehend the difference between when Jesus was bringing in the New Covenant and when He said, "It is finished" , and the curtain was rent in the Temple from top to bottom when He died on the cross, rose again, and is ever makes intercession for those who belong to Him, at the right hand of the Father. The NT holds over a 1000 do's and don'ts and we are held to a higher standard becaase of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Because we have no righteousness in ourselves, but it comes from Christ in us. And it is because of Him we do the things that PLEASE HIM.47b20s0

I would highly recommend that you pay attention to what I have said to you. Do not presume to come on here promoting keeping the law. Read and become familiar with what is discussed here. You are not here to teach us as is the attitude of many HR or messianics who come to "set the pagan Christians straight." Ecomcity We abide the Word of God. That is our standard. 15249

Further, WWJD---It's in the Scriptures what Jesus did. It's also in the Scriptures what we are to do and not do. And the pat phrase of WWJD isn't there.Sign0007 However, these thoughts and many others are:


Ephesians 2:18-22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Galatians 4:4-9 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


1 Peter 2:5-10 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


And, before you proceed any further, make sure you have clearly understood the forum rules---and that you have actually read them. 7143 Also, this section of the forum is for Introductions. Any further discussion on these other topics needs to be addressed in the appropriate threads---and all you have stated is already in existing threads. Please use them if you have anything further to discuss. 519

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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08-15-2009, 07:30 PM (This post was last modified: 08-15-2009 08:51 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #12
RE: Karebear
(08-15-2009 04:51 PM)stormy Wrote:  Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

your statement: "By keeping Torah, one is not saved by grace alone, one actually is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross"

I chose to believe scripture.

Are you saying that Scripture supports keeping Torah to be saved?

The word commandments in this text are not referring to the Mosaic Law. The word used in Rev 14:12 is entole, indicative of commandments in general - like what Jesus taught. The word for the Law of Moses is "nomos". Jesus did not teach keeping Torah - He changed it by adding to it and taking away from it ------ which is forbidden by Torah.
Jesus was teaching a new covenant, because the old covenant or Torah had been rejected by Israel and broken.


Quote:you said "No one "changed the Sabbath to Sunday" and then followed by "..Sunday was made the official day of worship..." First you said by "no one" and then you said that someone authorized it. Who. Where is "thus saith the Lord" And then I would ask WWJD?

The formalization of Sunday as a day of worship did not replace the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not kept by anyone in the first century, nor is is kept today. It cannot be replaced as the 7th day because it is the day that God rested from His creation. The problem is that Messianics mix terms and Biblical concepts to create a day to observe with all their additions and Rabbinic practices - none of which is Biblical. We are free in Christ. At complete rest 24/7 in Him, who is Lord of the Sabbath. Sunday is a new day, just as life in Christ is new - our focus is on Christ. Awesome!

Jesus did not keep the Sabbath either. Torah states that keepers of the Law remain in their tents on the Sabbath.
oops .........


Quote:It seems that Karebears is correct in her understandings and I don't understand youre devaluing the commandments of God.

You agree with karebear because she is Messianic, not because she is speaking the truth.


Quote:And then there was your use in "Free in Christ" .. is that free to keep on sinning? or by expunging our sentence by repenting from our sins, and of-course sins are disobedience to the Law

We are free in Christ from the bondage of sin and death and the curse from not keeping the Law. We have been delivered from the old covenant. This is not a license to sin. The NT is clear what is reprehensible to God and what is righteous.

The only people who assume that Christians are "free to sin" are Messianics. Hmmmmm - something is wrong with this picture - ya think?


Quote:The Messiah said: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

There seems to be no question as to what Law He is talking about and He did not come to abolish it but to fulfill. I would be careful about teaching others to break, even the smallest part, Gods Law

The Mosaic Law was indeed fulfilled. It was not abolished, but was replaced with the New Covenant. You can read all about it in Jeremiah 31:31, 32. Jesus said He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets in Luke 24 - perhaps you missed that part Smile God's Law is not Torah. God's Law is the Law of Christ. Torah was just a shadow, a pattern of what was to come.

Even Moses prophesied that one would come that the people should listen to. Not within the frame of the Levitical old covenant system, but in the Melchizedek High Priesthood of Christ and the new covenant. God also spoke on the Mt of Transfiguration. Moses was there. God said, "This is My Beloved Son, LISTEN TO HIM" - not to Moses, but to JESUS. And Jesus said His commandment was NEW, not renewed, not Torah, but NEW.

Please respond with Scripture, refuting what has been said in your own words. Putting forth Hebrew Roots concepts is not helpful to the discussion as we are more than familiar with them. Thanx.
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08-17-2009, 11:48 AM
Post: #13
RE: Karebear
stormy's last post of HR/messianic questions moved to:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=455


Pillowfight

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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