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sheep wrecked · 11-04-2009, 05:26 PM

(11-04-2009 03:34 PM)Ed J Wrote: Religious leaders sometimes view information that they do not understand
as ‘apostate’; I believe this is the case of Non-canonical books.

The Book of Enoch is a great read for the Christian looking for advanced studies.
This book describes the course of humanity, from a standpoint of Spirituality.

The book of Clement (of Philip.4:3) is a good read as well; it reads much like
Steven’s dissertation in the book of Acts, but longer and of greater detail.

The dead sea scrolls is another fine read; these writings date back before Christ.
God is so fast, for any Christian to think they know all truth truly limits only there
own growth potential.

God bless
Ed J

The reason that non-canonical books are called apostate is because they are. They were not added to the canon for good reason ------ God did not want them in there because they contradict Scripture.

The book of Enoch is the worst of the worst. It is full of occultism and magic. It's only spirituality is demonic.

The truth is not dependent on gnostic writings or the DSS. The DSS simply confirmed what we already knew. The Truth is found in the Bible - what we have today as given by God, inspired by Him and revealed to us through the Holy Spirit from whom ALL wisdom comes. No more is necessary for God gave ALL that we needed in His written Word. It is perfect, infallible, a miracle which can compare to none other since Jesus Christ. It is Awesome, Eternal, Infinite 47b20s0

~~Ed J~~ · 11-04-2009, 05:33 PM

(11-04-2009 05:26 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(11-04-2009 03:34 PM)Ed J Wrote: Religious leaders sometimes view information that they do not understand
as ‘apostate’; I believe this is the case of Non-canonical books.

The Book of Enoch is a great read for the Christian looking for advanced studies.
This book describes the course of humanity, from a standpoint of Spirituality.

The book of Clement (of Philip.4:3) is a good read as well; it reads much like
Steven’s dissertation in the book of Acts, but longer and of greater detail.

The dead sea scrolls is another fine read; these writings date back before Christ.
God is so fast, for any Christian to think they know all truth truly limits only there
own growth potential.

God bless
Ed J

The reason that non-canonical books are called apostate is because they are. They were not added to the canon for good reason ------ God did not want them in there because they contradict Scripture.

The book of Enoch is the worst of the worst. It is full of occultism and magic. It's only spirituality is demonic.

The truth is not dependent on gnostic writings or the DSS. The DSS simply confirmed what we already knew. The Truth is found in the Bible - what we have today as given by God, inspired by Him and revealed to us through the Holy Spirit from whom ALL wisdom comes. No more is necessary for God gave ALL that we needed in His written Word. It is perfect, infallible, a miracle which can compare to none other since Jesus Christ. It is Awesome, Eternal, Infinite

I made no mention gnostic writings.

God bless
Ed J

sheep wrecked · 11-04-2009, 05:37 PM

(11-04-2009 05:33 PM)Ed J Wrote:
(11-04-2009 05:26 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(11-04-2009 03:34 PM)Ed J Wrote: Religious leaders sometimes view information that they do not understand
as ‘apostate’; I believe this is the case of Non-canonical books.

The Book of Enoch is a great read for the Christian looking for advanced studies.
This book describes the course of humanity, from a standpoint of Spirituality.

The book of Clement (of Philip.4:3) is a good read as well; it reads much like
Steven’s dissertation in the book of Acts, but longer and of greater detail.

The dead sea scrolls is another fine read; these writings date back before Christ.
God is so fast, for any Christian to think they know all truth truly limits only there
own growth potential.

God bless
Ed J

The reason that non-canonical books are called apostate is because they are. They were not added to the canon for good reason ------ God did not want them in there because they contradict Scripture.

The book of Enoch is the worst of the worst. It is full of occultism and magic. It's only spirituality is demonic.

The truth is not dependent on gnostic writings or the DSS. The DSS simply confirmed what we already knew. The Truth is found in the Bible - what we have today as given by God, inspired by Him and revealed to us through the Holy Spirit from whom ALL wisdom comes. No more is necessary for God gave ALL that we needed in His written Word. It is perfect, infallible, a miracle which can compare to none other since Jesus Christ. It is Awesome, Eternal, Infinite

I made no mention gnostic writings.

God bless
Ed J

The Book of Enoch is a gnostic writing, as are most of the non-canonical writings. The book of Clement simply quotes the NT - it is not an original writing.

ps: please check your private messages - thanx.

~~rancherforChrist~~ · 11-06-2009, 12:33 PM

(08-14-2009 02:21 PM)grafted Wrote: Does anyone else read or use as reference or study-aid, the different apocrypha's and non-canonical books?

While engaged in personal research I happened across an interesting Wiki site which list their references in the main biblical cannon; which was of interesting note.

Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

Wow, you all have some cool discussions here. This is one of the few forums I've ever seen that has broached the subject of Apocrypha's.

I hadn't read them until a few months ago, simply because the Lord had made it clear to me that He didn't want me to read them yet. Then one day He told me to read all of them, so I did (but I didn't read them all in one day). Whether or not it is the inspired word of God, I will not venture to say. Is there any truth in those writings? I would have to say, absolutely! Often times we have a tendency to label things a certain way because others have before us. I'm sure that pretty much everyone here has read other literature besides the bible, and probably everyone here has found that no matter what you read, you can usually find some truth and some lies in pretty much any literature. As it is with the bible, the Word is to be rightly divided.

2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only way that I know of for that to happen, is through Holy Spirit within us. The bible says that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance.

John 14:26 (New King James Version)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

I saw on another post on the forum, that someone stated how alive the word of God is. Amen to that. It isn't just alive as words on a page. The word is a living being.

John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The scripture even calls the Word "He". Jesus said that He is The Way, The Truth and The Life.

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Word really is alive, and He is even alive in us who believe, because the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Love ya,
Chris

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 11-06-2009 01:52 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(11-06-2009 12:33 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote: Wow, you all have some cool discussions here. This is one of the few forums I've ever seen that has broached the subject of Apocrypha's.

I hadn't read them until a few months ago, simply because the Lord had made it clear to me that He didn't want me to read them yet. Then one day He told me to read all of them, so I did (but I didn't read them all in one day). Whether or not it is the inspired word of God, I will not venture to say. Is there any truth in those writings? I would have to say, absolutely! Often times we have a tendency to label things a certain way because others have before us. I'm sure that pretty much everyone here has read other literature besides the bible, and probably everyone here has found that no matter what you read, you can usually find some truth and some lies in pretty much any literature. As it is with the bible, the Word is to be rightly divided.

2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only way that I know of for that to happen, is through Holy Spirit within us. The bible says that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance.

John 14:26 (New King James Version)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

I saw on another post on the forum, that someone stated how alive the word of God is. Amen to that. It isn't just alive as words on a page. The word is a living being.

John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The scripture even calls the Word "He". Jesus said that He is The Way, The Truth and The Life.

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Word really is alive, and He is even alive in us who believe, because the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Love ya,
Chris

A lot of people find the apoc interesting. The Catholic Church views them as inspired and has included them in their canon.

I found an article on the apoc written by a King James group and thought it might be something to think about. You can find the full article here:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

Quote:What is the Apocrypha anyway?

The Apocrypha is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by various individuals. The Catholic religion considers these books as scripture just like a Bible-believer believes that our 66 books are the word of God, i.e., Genesis to Revelation. We are going to examine some verses from the Apocrypha later in our discussion.

At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In reality, the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic doctrine comes primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible names. In my reading of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: "You have to keep the Bible in perspective." Catholics do not believe that the Bible is God's complete revelation for man.

The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:

First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna*

*A reader says: "Susanna is in the Roman Catholic canon. It is Daniel 13."

Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

My question would be - can we apply what Jesus said to the apoc?

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Or what Paul states:

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Any thoughts?

***Vic*** · 11-06-2009, 01:46 PM

(11-06-2009 12:33 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote: Wow, you all have some cool discussions here. This is one of the few forums I've ever seen that has broached the subject of Apocrypha's.

I hadn't read them until a few months ago, simply because the Lord had made it clear to me that He didn't want me to read them yet. Then one day He told me to read all of them, so I did (but I didn't read them all in one day). Whether or not it is the inspired word of God, I will not venture to say. Is there any truth in those writings? I would have to say, absolutely! Often times we have a tendency to label things a certain way because others have before us. I'm sure that pretty much everyone here has read other literature besides the bible, and probably everyone here has found that no matter what you read, you can usually find some truth and some lies in pretty much any literature. As it is with the bible, the Word is to be rightly divided.

2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only way that I know of for that to happen, is through Holy Spirit within us. The bible says that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance.

John 14:26 (New King James Version)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

I saw on another post on the forum, that someone stated how alive the word of God is. Amen to that. It isn't just alive as words on a page. The word is a living being.

John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The scripture even calls the Word "He". Jesus said that He is The Way, The Truth and The Life.

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Word really is alive, and He is even alive in us who believe, because the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Love ya,
Chris

Chris, You have some really good points here about the Word and Christ---being alive--Amen to all of that.

One of the problems with the religious writings and the whole truth and error content is that many people do not know the Word well enough to be able to discern between the truth and error. They therefore will take these books and accept them as inspired and canon--just like the Bible. When they are not. Nor are they generally presented as such, but people get swept up in the what ifs and maybes pretty easily.

The Bible is the only Word of God we have that contains Truth that we know has been given, inspired and protected by Him. One of the greatest tools of deception is to present truth alongside error, because people have been conditioned to think it's ok to pick and choose which truth they can grab and "spit out the bones", but many don't see the errors in order to 'spit them out'. Jesus warned that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Hence the need to get our doctrine from the Scriptures. The Bible doesn't have any bones to choke on. People who are unable to discern between the truth and errors have that leaven permeating their beliefs, even when they don't even know they have been affected. 10171

~~rancherforChrist~~ · 11-06-2009, 01:47 PM

(11-06-2009 01:36 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(11-06-2009 12:33 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote: Wow, you all have some cool discussions here. This is one of the few forums I've ever seen that has broached the subject of Apocrypha's.

I hadn't read them until a few months ago, simply because the Lord had made it clear to me that He didn't want me to read them yet. Then one day He told me to read all of them, so I did (but I didn't read them all in one day). Whether or not it is the inspired word of God, I will not venture to say. Is there any truth in those writings? I would have to say, absolutely! Often times we have a tendency to label things a certain way because others have before us. I'm sure that pretty much everyone here has read other literature besides the bible, and probably everyone here has found that no matter what you read, you can usually find some truth and some lies in pretty much any literature. As it is with the bible, the Word is to be rightly divided.

2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only way that I know of for that to happen, is through Holy Spirit within us. The bible says that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance.

John 14:26 (New King James Version)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

I saw on another post on the forum, that someone stated how alive the word of God is. Amen to that. It isn't just alive as words on a page. The word is a living being.

John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The scripture even calls the Word "He". Jesus said that He is The Way, The Truth and The Life.

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Word really is alive, and He is even alive in us who believe, because the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Love ya,
Chris

[b]A lot of people find the apoc interesting. The Catholic Church views them as inspired and has included them in their canon.

I found an article on the apoc written by a King James group and thought it might be something to think about. You can find the full article here:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

Quote:What is the Apocrypha anyway?

The Apocrypha is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by various individuals. The Catholic religion considers these books as scripture just like a Bible-believer believes that our 66 books are the word of God, i.e., Genesis to Revelation. We are going to examine some verses from the Apocrypha later in our discussion.

At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In reality, the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic doctrine comes primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible names. In my reading of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: "You have to keep the Bible in perspective." Catholics do not believe that the Bible is God's complete revelation for man.

The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:

First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna*

*A reader says: "Susanna is in the Roman Catholic canon. It is Daniel 13."

Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

My question would be - can we apply what Jesus said to the apoc?

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Or what Paul states:

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I have read some of the King James group's writings about the apocrypha I don't fully agree with them. Neither do I fully agree with the Catholic position on this matter.

I know all of the scriptures that you listed in your response. I'm just not sure what your intended message is, to how they relate to the validity of the apocrypha.

I have to sign off for now, but maybe we can continue in this discussion later.

Love ya,
Chris

sheep wrecked · 11-06-2009, 05:48 PM

(11-06-2009 01:47 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:
Quote:What is the Apocrypha anyway?

The Apocrypha is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by various individuals. The Catholic religion considers these books as scripture just like a Bible-believer believes that our 66 books are the word of God, i.e., Genesis to Revelation. We are going to examine some verses from the Apocrypha later in our discussion.

At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In reality, the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic doctrine comes primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible names. In my reading of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: "You have to keep the Bible in perspective." Catholics do not believe that the Bible is God's complete revelation for man.

The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:

First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna*

*A reader says: "Susanna is in the Roman Catholic canon. It is Daniel 13."

Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

My question would be - can we apply what Jesus said to the apoc?

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Or what Paul states:

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I have read some of the King James group's writings about the apocrypha I don't fully agree with them. Neither do I fully agree with the Catholic position on this matter.

I know all of the scriptures that you listed in your response. I'm just not sure what your intended message is, to how they relate to the validity of the apocrypha.

I have to sign off for now, but maybe we can continue in this discussion later.

Love ya,
Chris
[/quote]

I am not sure what you mean about the quote above. Could you expound on that a bit - like clarify what your disagreements are? 14949

The Scriptures I posted have to do with a little evil contaminating the whole "loaf". In other words, the Apoc is not inspired, yet people think they are worth digging into for bits of truth. When Jesus stated that an evil tree does not bear forth good fruit - can you see how the apoc fits? Because it contains contradictions to Scripture, has magic and the occult in it, and declares false theology it is an evil tree and therefore cannot produce good fruit.

Do you agree with that?