Who has it right?

[Vic]

(11-06-2009 07:10 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  Hello Vicki,

I actually never implied or said that Jesus put mine or anyone's salvation on the table. I am saying that I put my salvation at the feet of Jesus, for Him to do with whatever he chooses. Ya see, I don't believe that Jesus owes me anything, nor does He take from me. Just as no one took His life or anything else from Him. He laid down His life willingly. Certainly the scripture does clearly state that our very souls are more important than our lives.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


I also believe that Jesus paid the price for me. All that I have and all that I am belongs to Him, even my soul. What I lay at the feet of Jesus, I do so willingly and gladly because I love Him. I also love the brethren and would gladly lay down my life and my very salvation for any one of them. That doesn't mean that I am anything compared to Jesus. What Jesus laid down for each one of us is far more than His life, and far more than I could possibly lay down. I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Love ya,
Chris

Hi Chris, I am sure you believe that everything we hold as doctrine or believe must be able to withstand the test of Scripture. You have made some statements that I have never heard before and are certainly not in any Scriptures that come to my mind. So the question would be, do they contradict the Scriptures?

You said

Quote: I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Let's look at what God says about what of us belongs to Him--when we come to Christ and believe. And the issue of our bodies, souls and spirits.

1 Corinthians 6:15-17 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. ... 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

If we already belong to God, and everything is already His, and He is already the Shepherd/keeper and Bishop of our souls; and salvation is a free gift that we can accept or reject, and if we accept it, we have the promise of eternal life, and "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls"...isn't to 'give' salvation and your soul back to Christ, to reject that gift?

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I am not trying to upset you. But I am having a really hard time wrapping my mind around your statements on these issues. I just don't see the Scriptures supporting those concepts. If you have them, please do show me as I am quite willing to learn. I always struggle a bit with new phrasings and ideas, so please bear with me.

Don't you think that if what you are saying is a sound concept, there should be Scriptures to support it?

Our bodies are to be living sacrifices,holy, acceptable unto God--which is your reasonable service. I am unable to find any Scripture that suggests we give our salvation--which is a gift from God to begin with--and give it (or our souls) back to Christ so He can do with it what He will.

He promised salvation to those who believe Him, didn't He? So what would He do with it?

Don't our souls already belong to Him according to the Scriptures?

[rancherforChrist]

(11-06-2009 09:10 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(11-06-2009 07:10 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  Hello Vicki,

I actually never implied or said that Jesus put mine or anyone's salvation on the table. I am saying that I put my salvation at the feet of Jesus, for Him to do with whatever he chooses. Ya see, I don't believe that Jesus owes me anything, nor does He take from me. Just as no one took His life or anything else from Him. He laid down His life willingly. Certainly the scripture does clearly state that our very souls are more important than our lives.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


I also believe that Jesus paid the price for me. All that I have and all that I am belongs to Him, even my soul. What I lay at the feet of Jesus, I do so willingly and gladly because I love Him. I also love the brethren and would gladly lay down my life and my very salvation for any one of them. That doesn't mean that I am anything compared to Jesus. What Jesus laid down for each one of us is far more than His life, and far more than I could possibly lay down. I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Love ya,
Chris

Hi Chris, I am sure you believe that everything we hold as doctrine or believe must be able to withstand the test of Scripture. You have made some statements that I have never heard before and are certainly not in any Scriptures that come to my mind. So the question would be, do they contradict the Scriptures?

You said

Quote: I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Let's look at what God says about what of us belongs to Him--when we come to Christ and believe. And the issue of our bodies, souls and spirits.

1 Corinthians 6:15-17 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. ... 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

If we already belong to God, and everything is already His, and He is already the Shepherd/keeper and Bishop of our souls; and salvation is a free gift that we can accept or reject, and if we accept it, we have the promise of eternal life, and "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls"...isn't to 'give' salvation and your soul back to Christ, to reject that gift?

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I am not trying to upset you. But I am having a really hard time wrapping my mind around your statements on these issues. I just don't see the Scriptures supporting those concepts. If you have them, please do show me as I am quite willing to learn. I always struggle a bit with new phrasings and ideas, so please bear with me.

Don't you think that if what you are saying is a sound concept, there should be Scriptures to support it?

Our bodies are to be living sacrifices,holy, acceptable unto God--which is your reasonable service. I am unable to find any Scripture that suggests we give our salvation--which is a gift from God to begin with--and give it (or our souls) back to Christ so He can do with it what He will.

He promised salvation to those who believe Him, didn't He? So what would He do with it?

Don't our souls already belong to Him according to the Scriptures?

Hi Vicki,

You haven't offended me at all. I actually like your questions. They're good questions. The concept that I am talking about is simple, but please allow me to lay a question on the table for you to consider first. When Jesus gave His life for us, did that mean that He was rejecting His throne or the Father or even His nature as God? Surely it didn't mean that He was rejecting any of that.

So, here is the simple concept that I am sharing. Please understand that I know that you or others may not agree with me, and I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. I'm just sharing this concept that I live my life by, for Jesus. I don't want to hold on to anyone or anything more tightly than I hold to Christ. Let me even take it one step further. For most of my life I have heard christians speak of the reward that awaits those who love Jesus and live for Him. Though there is a promise of reward, I don't do the things that I do for reward. If I do, then what I do would not be love. Love is selfless. If I work or minister or do anything that I do for reward, then my doing is no longer an act of love, because I am seeking what I can get out of it. My laying down all, even my salvation, at the feet of Jesus is not rejection of Him or His gift to me. I lay my salvation at His feet because I love Him and I trust Him. I trust that He will always do what is best for me and most glorious for Him.

I'm sure that you know this next scripture well, because I have seen you use it as a quote.

Proverbs 3:5&6 NKJV
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, Lean not on your own understanding, In all your ways acknowledge God, And He will direct your paths

I simply believe that All means All, and that is how I try to live my life for Jesus. I don't want to try and hold anything out of His reach. I don't want to hold on to anything, because if my hands are full of things that I'm holding on to, it makes it real hard to embrace Jesus. I want my hands open wide, and I receive all that He has for me. Then I lay it all back at His feet again and I say, "ok Lord, thanks for everything that You have given me. Now please Lord, tell me what you want me to do with what You've given me, because it all belongs to You."

I was created by God and for Him, not the other way around.

I hope that makes sense because I'm not sure if I can explain it any better.

Love ya,
Chris

[Strefanash]

Who has it right? None of us. Oh, we have the Bible, but being carnal minded we will and so ignore parts of it and often do not know we are doing it.

St Paul said we see through a glass dimly. And we are all like the blindmen in the room with the elephant, one feels the trunk and says the elephant is long and thick, another the tal and says it is long and thin.

Oh yes!! Christianity has the ENTIRE TRUTH when it comes to relevant issues. I wasn't even thinking of let alone considering the contrary.

But look at the fractured state of the church. Each has somer part of the truth as regards doctrinal proposition (truth the Person is another matter), so none of us has all of it.

And if we do not love we do not know the lord, for all our doctrine (I John).

If I were to be honest my belief would be riddled with heresy, and my fruit are bad. I submit this applies to all of us

---

QUOTE:

I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same.

Stref: conviction of sins, including the sins of unbelief, mean i have long ago given up this notion. I do withhold everything I can from Him, and pious talk about how wonderful or great he is makes no difference.

Giving all to Jesus? A pious conceit I have had to abandon. I am carnal, therefore I think carnal and the gospel is nonsense to me as scripture says it is to the carnal mind.

It is not about my giving to God but God's continued giving to me, giving of his time and patience in the on going conversation which leads me to repent.

Any biblical notion, for me to acquire it, requires me to admit the contrary in me to be led to repent. bypassing this is presumption, to jump the fence and ignore the door who is the Lord

[Mary]

(11-06-2009 07:10 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  

(11-06-2009 05:52 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 03:46 PM)Ed J Wrote:  Nobody or Group has a corner on all truth; we must all see the truths
that others hold to truly see "the big picture" (GOD).

God bless
Ed J

Ed, Contrary to what you have in your beliefs in your book, that "

Quote: What Does This Book Reveal?
Nobody has the entire "Truth"! Not Christianly, Judaism, Islam nor the great minds of science! Because the forces of evil have blinded everyone's eyes until now, even the most learned![website Why it was Written]

The Truth is available and found in Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In other words. Jesus is the way to Truth. Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is Life. No one can get to God any other way. That is the Truth of the matter.

Further, Chris, Jesus said Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

You said, ""are you willing to lay down all that you have and all that you are for any one of them, even unto your own salvation?"

If I am understanding the phrase, even unto your own salvation--it sounds like being willing to give up your salvation for someone else.
Jesus never said even to our own salvation, but the greatest love--which He demonstrated, was by giving up His own life for us, which means the greatest love is being willing to die for someone else. We don't lose our salvation by dying for someone. I understand the concept of loving Christ enough to be willing to die for Him. I believe we all must have that resolution, because that is really giving our whole selves to Him, and as the apostles demonstrated with their lives in many cases. Some will also die while serving Him. But He never put our salvation on the table as being up for grabs as part of giving of ourselves for His service.

Hello Vicki,

I actually never implied or said that Jesus put mine or anyone's salvation on the table. I am saying that I put my salvation at the feet of Jesus, for Him to do with whatever he chooses. Ya see, I don't believe that Jesus owes me anything, nor does He take from me. Just as no one took His life or anything else from Him. He laid down His life willingly. Certainly the scripture does clearly state that our very souls are more important than our lives.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


I also believe that Jesus paid the price for me. All that I have and all that I am belongs to Him, even my soul. What I lay at the feet of Jesus, I do so willingly and gladly because I love Him. I also love the brethren and would gladly lay down my life and my very salvation for any one of them. That doesn't mean that I am anything compared to Jesus. What Jesus laid down for each one of us is far more than His life, and far more than I could possibly lay down. I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Love ya,
Chris

(11-06-2009 09:48 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  

(11-06-2009 09:10 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(11-06-2009 07:10 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  Hello Vicki,

I actually never implied or said that Jesus put mine or anyone's salvation on the table. I am saying that I put my salvation at the feet of Jesus, for Him to do with whatever he chooses. Ya see, I don't believe that Jesus owes me anything, nor does He take from me. Just as no one took His life or anything else from Him. He laid down His life willingly. Certainly the scripture does clearly state that our very souls are more important than our lives.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


I also believe that Jesus paid the price for me. All that I have and all that I am belongs to Him, even my soul. What I lay at the feet of Jesus, I do so willingly and gladly because I love Him. I also love the brethren and would gladly lay down my life and my very salvation for any one of them. That doesn't mean that I am anything compared to Jesus. What Jesus laid down for each one of us is far more than His life, and far more than I could possibly lay down. I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Love ya,
Chris

Hi Chris, I am sure you believe that everything we hold as doctrine or believe must be able to withstand the test of Scripture. You have made some statements that I have never heard before and are certainly not in any Scriptures that come to my mind. So the question would be, do they contradict the Scriptures?

You said

Quote: I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Let's look at what God says about what of us belongs to Him--when we come to Christ and believe. And the issue of our bodies, souls and spirits.

1 Corinthians 6:15-17 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. ... 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

If we already belong to God, and everything is already His, and He is already the Shepherd/keeper and Bishop of our souls; and salvation is a free gift that we can accept or reject, and if we accept it, we have the promise of eternal life, and "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls"...isn't to 'give' salvation and your soul back to Christ, to reject that gift?

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I am not trying to upset you. But I am having a really hard time wrapping my mind around your statements on these issues. I just don't see the Scriptures supporting those concepts. If you have them, please do show me as I am quite willing to learn. I always struggle a bit with new phrasings and ideas, so please bear with me.

Don't you think that if what you are saying is a sound concept, there should be Scriptures to support it?

Our bodies are to be living sacrifices,holy, acceptable unto God--which is your reasonable service. I am unable to find any Scripture that suggests we give our salvation--which is a gift from God to begin with--and give it (or our souls) back to Christ so He can do with it what He will.

He promised salvation to those who believe Him, didn't He? So what would He do with it?

Don't our souls already belong to Him according to the Scriptures?

Hi Vicki,

You haven't offended me at all. I actually like your questions. They're good questions. The concept that I am talking about is simple, but please allow me to lay a question on the table for you to consider first. When Jesus gave His life for us, did that mean that He was rejecting His throne or the Father or even His nature as God? Surely it didn't mean that He was rejecting any of that.

So, here is the simple concept that I am sharing. Please understand that I know that you or others may not agree with me, and I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. I'm just sharing this concept that I live my life by, for Jesus. I don't want to hold on to anyone or anything more tightly than I hold to Christ. Let me even take it one step further. For most of my life I have heard christians speak of the reward that awaits those who love Jesus and live for Him. Though there is a promise of reward, I don't do the things that I do for reward. If I do, then what I do would not be love. Love is selfless. If I work or minister or do anything that I do for reward, then my doing is no longer an act of love, because I am seeking what I can get out of it. My laying down all, even my salvation, at the feet of Jesus is not rejection of Him or His gift to me. I lay my salvation at His feet because I love Him and I trust Him. I trust that He will always do what is best for me and most glorious for Him.

I'm sure that you know this next scripture well, because I have seen you use it as a quote.

Proverbs 3:5&6 NKJV
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, Lean not on your own understanding, In all your ways acknowledge God, And He will direct your paths

I simply believe that All means All, and that is how I try to live my life for Jesus. I don't want to try and hold anything out of His reach. I don't want to hold on to anything, because if my hands are full of things that I'm holding on to, it makes it real hard to embrace Jesus. I want my hands open wide, and I receive all that He has for me. Then I lay it all back at His feet again and I say, "ok Lord, thanks for everything that You have given me. Now please Lord, tell me what you want me to do with what You've given me, because it all belongs to You."

I was created by God and for Him, not the other way around.

I hope that makes sense because I'm not sure if I can explain it any better.

Love ya,
Chris

These are my thoughts when reading your reply Chris - you are controlling your relationship with God. He gives you salvation and you give it back. You embrace Him.. you lay it all back at his feet. It all sounds very holy, but it really seems like you are the one in control.
You say you don't want to hold anything back from Him, as if you could if you wanted to.

We are told "be ye thankful" - how are you being thankful?

---

(11-08-2009 01:40 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  Who has it right? None of us. Oh, we have the Bible, but being carnal minded we will and so ignore parts of it and often do not know we are doing it.

St Paul said we see through a glass dimly. And we are all like the blindmen in the room with the elephant, one feels the trunk and says the elephant is long and thick, another the tal and says it is long and thin.

Oh yes!! Christianity has the ENTIRE TRUTH when it comes to relevant issues. I wasn't even thinking of let alone considering the contrary.

But look at the fractured state of the church. Each has somer part of the truth as regards doctrinal proposition (truth the Person is another matter), so none of us has all of it.

And if we do not love we do not know the lord, for all our doctrine (I John).

If I were to be honest my belief would be riddled with heresy, and my fruit are bad. I submit this applies to all of us

---

QUOTE:

I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same.

Stref: conviction of sins, including the sins of unbelief, mean i have long ago given up this notion. I do withhold everything I can from Him, and pious talk about how wonderful or great he is makes no difference.

Giving all to Jesus? A pious conceit I have had to abandon. I am carnal, therefore I think carnal and the gospel is nonsense to me as scripture says it is to the carnal mind.

It is not about my giving to God but God's continued giving to me, giving of his time and patience in the on going conversation which leads me to repent.

Any biblical notion, for me to acquire it, requires me to admit the contrary in me to be led to repent. bypassing this is presumption, to jump the fence and ignore the door who is the Lord

To be honest, I feel that when I read your replies Strefanesh, I am looking through a glass dimly. I think a lot of what you say is your own wall built up to keep God out, and your cool intellectualism lifts you above us ordinary folk, who just cannot argue/discuss with you.
I read psalm 39 this morning...
5b ... "verily, every man at his best state is altogether vanity"
You may find the whole psalm enlightening.

I'm going to quote again what Vic has already quoted:
2 Peter 1: 2 - 9
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Now I'll quote a song from Michael Card:
"give up on your pondering, fall down on your knees"

[Barley]

(08-22-2009 11:50 PM)grafted Wrote:  ..Which church, or denomination has it right, or wrong?

..Where do they get it right at and equally where do they get it wrong and WHY.

..Is there really any place where one can get it right?

........................................................
The Bible teaches that God is Spirit.
That if you draw near to God He will draw near to you.
We get it wrong when we think that if we go to the right group or right person we will get it right but nothing could be father from the truth.

The Spirit of God testifies of Jesus.
It is when we humble ourselves and accept the gift of eternal life that Jesus has bought for us that the Fullness of God, Father, Son and Spirit come to live in Spirit form within us.

It is the Holy Spirit that will teach us all things.
Many today think the Holy Spirit only led the early Church leaders, many today think all sorts of crasey things.
But if YOU want the truth them go to the Bible, seek the truth about Jesus, accept His gift to you, recieve the Holy Spirit and begin walking in His Light.
People will want to lead you, tell you what to do, what to say, what to believe. They really are trying to play God, their own pride blinds them.
But for yourself, you follow the Lord, He will lead you and guide you. Follow Him with your whole heart.

It is not that God can't speak to you through other people but be very carefull, for their are many wolves in sheeps clothing.
You, really need to learn to test all things and to know His Voice, His Word.

Barley

[sheep wrecked]

(12-11-2009 11:33 AM)Barley Wrote:  The Bible teaches that God is Spirit.
That if you draw near to God He will draw near to you.
We get it wrong when we think that if we go to the right group or right person we will get it right but nothing could be father from the truth.

The Spirit of God testifies of Jesus.
It is when we humble ourselves and accept the gift of eternal life that Jesus has bought for us that the Fullness of God, Father, Son and Spirit come to live in Spirit form within us.

It is the Holy Spirit that will teach us all things.
Many today think the Holy Spirit only led the early Church leaders, many today think all sorts of crasey things.
But if YOU want the truth them go to the Bible, seek the truth about Jesus, accept His gift to you, recieve the Holy Spirit and begin walking in His Light.
People will want to lead you, tell you what to do, what to say, what to believe. They really are trying to play God, their own pride blinds them.
But for yourself, you follow the Lord, He will lead you and guide you. Follow Him with your whole heart.

It is not that God can't speak to you through other people but be very carefull, for their are many wolves in sheeps clothing.
You, really need to learn to test all things and to know His Voice, His Word.

Barley

Barley,

You may think that you have your theology all tied up in a neat little package, but the underlying foundation of your belief system is a voice. You are not being led by the Holy Spirit, but by a voice.

The voice you hear is a curse, it is not of God, as was clearly shown in your other posts in which you misapply Scripture and promote ideas and concepts that are not in the Word of God.

The transformation of the Holy Spirit is *spiritual* - in our spirits - it is not a voice that gives us revelation or what to wear in the morning. The NT does not tell us to go after a voice, but to take up our cross and follow Jesus Christ and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide through the grace and mercy of God. He will get us where we need to go, He does not need to give us a google map or a text message or an echo in our heads

Why am I so anti voice? Because I heard the voice for many years. It became the conduit between me and Christ. I would do nothing without the voice. When I read the Bible, I depended on the voice to show me "truth". When I would receive "words", I believed that the Holy Spirit was speaking through me.

The strange thing is that I was always seeking for confirmation, to make sure what I heard was "truth", so I would tell God that I would not move unless He revealed His perfect will to me and confirmed that what I head was Him, not satan. It was vicious circle that consumed my life. I got to the point that I dare not move unless the voice instructed me, so I would lay down on the floor in silence and wait for God to "speak".

Perhaps your dependence was not as extreme as that. There are many who are not, but by encouraging people to listen for a voice, they are entering a world of mysticism and deception.

[Barley]

You may think that you have your theology all tied up in a neat little package, but the underlying foundation of your belief system is a voice. You are not being led by the Holy Spirit, but by a voice.

The voice you hear is a curse, it is not of God, as was clearly shown in your other posts in which you misapply Scripture and promote ideas and concepts that are not in the Word of God.

The transformation of the Holy Spirit is *spiritual* - in our spirits - it is not a voice that gives us revelation or what to wear in the morning. The NT does not tell us to go after a voice, but to take up our cross and follow Jesus Christ and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide through the grace and mercy of God. He will get us where we need to go, He does not need to give us a google map or a text message or an echo in our heads

Why am I so anti voice? Because I heard the voice for many years. It became the conduit between me and Christ. I would do nothing without the voice. When I read the Bible, I depended on the voice to show me "truth". When I would receive "words", I believed that the Holy Spirit was speaking through me.

The strange thing is that I was always seeking for confirmation, to make sure what I heard was "truth", so I would tell God that I would not move unless He revealed His perfect will to me and confirmed that what I head was Him, not satan. It was vicious circle that consumed my life. I got to the point that I dare not move unless the voice instructed me, so I would lay down on the floor in silence and wait for God to "speak".

Perhaps your dependence was not as extreme as that. There are many who are not, but by encouraging people to listen for a voice, they are entering a world of mysticism and deception. [/b][/color]
[/quote]

..........................................
....................................


I don’t deny that you may indeed have been hearing a voice that was not of God.
However the Bible tells us over and over again that if we have ears to hear then we can hear from the Lord.
According to your story you did not hear the voice of the Lord but the voice of a deceiver.
That is very common among people. However that does not mean that God has not spoken to many, many people.
I hope you repented of it.
There is no conduit between us and the Lord. When He speaks to us by His Spirit it is Him speaking.
God is Spirit.
It is a mistake to follow after other voices, to follow other shepherds.
It is just a wrong to follow yourself.
Here are a few verses on the subject, there are plenty more.
I encourage people to get to know Jesus really, really, well. And to trust in Him alone and then they need not fear getting sucked into following something else. Jesus ability to reveal is far greater than satans ability to conceal.

Barley


Jer 11:7-8
7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.
(KJV)

John 10:1-5
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
(KJV)

John 10:6-14
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
(KJV)

John 10:24-30
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

Acts 9:4-5
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
(KJV)

Ezek 12:1-2
1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
(NIV)

Matt 13:8-16
8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-- a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
9 He who has ears, let him hear."
10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
(NIV)

Matt 13:41-43
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(KJV)

[sheep wrecked]

(12-11-2009 06:56 PM)Barley Wrote:  I don’t deny that you may indeed have been hearing a voice that was not of God.
However the Bible tells us over and over again that if we have ears to hear then we can hear from the Lord.
According to your story you did not hear the voice of the Lord but the voice of a deceiver.
That is very common among people. However that does not mean that God has not spoken to many, many people.
I hope you repented of it.
There is no conduit between us and the Lord. When He speaks to us by His Spirit it is Him speaking.
God is Spirit.
It is a mistake to follow after other voices, to follow other shepherds.
It is just a wrong to follow yourself.
Here are a few verses on the subject, there are plenty more.
I encourage people to get to know Jesus really, really, well. And to trust in Him alone and then they need not fear getting sucked into following something else. Jesus ability to reveal is far greater than satans ability to conceal.

Barley


Jer 11:7-8
7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.
(KJV)

John 10:1-5
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
(KJV)

John 10:6-14
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
(KJV)

John 10:24-30
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

Acts 9:4-5
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
(KJV)

Ezek 12:1-2
1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
(NIV)

Matt 13:8-16
8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-- a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
9 He who has ears, let him hear."
10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
(NIV)

Matt 13:41-43
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(KJV)

Barley,

You certainly do have a strange way of finding Scripts to support your concepts. None of those verses refer to hearing an actual voice other than Paul who really did. What is written, was spoken, and therefore; that is the "voice" of God to us - in written form. Jesus even stated that His disciples would write down what He said. Anyone who hears a voice today is hearing additions to God's Word.

Let me ask you this - if Jesus voice is literal, then are we literal sheep, in a literal pen, coming in through a literal gate? Why is it that one can interpret one word and as being literal, and the rest is accepted as allegorical? Does an actual wolf come in among the sheep? Do we actually and literally go grazing in a meadow?

He who hath an ear, let him hear, is not referring to voice - it means the written Word of God.

I especially love it when I tell people that I heard a voice for many years and was obedient to it - and because they don't agree with my conclusions then say I was not hearing God, but they are better or more spiritually superior than me, and they really do hear God speak in a voice. What I thot was God speaking to me, was the exact same thing that you think is the voice of God, and what 1000s of others think is His voice. Whatever you think is God speaking to you, is exactly the same that I thought was God. We are no different, accept I chose to walk away from it because I realized it was deception. You want to revel in it, thinking you are above getting tricked/deceived. It just ain't so You believe that the voice you hear is your connection to God, and without the voice you do not have the Holy Spirit and cannot know the will of God.

I have a whole box full of things written down that the "Lord" spoke to me. I would bet my last dollar, that if you read what was written down, you would say it was God.

[Mary]

It is just so much easier to hear a "voice", and one would feel very special. I have had some experiences that anyone may comment upon.

At one time I was friends with a woman who was in a charismatic church. She related hearing God's voice, speaking in tongues and feeling His presence. She seemed so enrapt and blissful about it that I was envious and wished I had the same close experience of God that she did. I prayed about it, and I dreamed one night that I had woken and Jesus was in the room next to the bed. I felt loved and comforted. Then, he came closer and closer, and as he got right next to me I saw an evil face and felt extremely frightened, for a few seconds, then it went away, and I woke up properly with a clear thought in my head that the mystic experiences promoted by charismatics is not of God, and is a deception. Over the past few years I have been spending more and more time studying and reading the bible for myself, instead of just listening to preachers and reading others commentaries etc, and Praise God I can say I have been well taught in the past. I am sure I understood that the charismatic stuff was nonsense, and my subconscious formed the dream - I don't think it was some mystical revelation from God, but I was and am grateful for the reminder.

At other times, when I have prayed about something, a book of the bible, or a particular verse/s has come to mind, which when I read it gives me comfort, consolation, and or understanding. Here are some examples: terrorists stormed into St James Church in Cape Town one Sunday morning and shot at the congregation, killing and injuring many. When praying about it and feeling very grieved and shocked, the thought came into my mind to read Habbakuk. This book was not familiar to me at that time : it was a great comfort and help. When I was suffering a miscarriage, while praying, the thought 2 Peter 5 came to mind, which I read, and which sustained me throughout that hard time. There are many others. Often when I'm reading the Bible, verses or passages have a particular application at that time to my experiences or feelings, and again comfort and give me understanding; or may be for me to use to encourage others.

What do I know? I know that the Holy Spirit is our comforter, is my comforter. If I should hear a voice directing me about or to anything other than God's written word, then it is not the Holy Spirit. Also I never experience the Holy Spirit as "explaining" anything to me in the Bible - it is more that I have understanding as I read. When I don't understand something, I pray about it, and I know that at some stage God will give me understanding.

[Barley]

(12-11-2009 09:00 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(12-11-2009 06:56 PM)Barley Wrote:  I don’t deny that you may indeed have been hearing a voice that was not of God.
However the Bible tells us over and over again that if we have ears to hear then we can hear from the Lord.
According to your story you did not hear the voice of the Lord but the voice of a deceiver.
That is very common among people. However that does not mean that God has not spoken to many, many people.
I hope you repented of it.
There is no conduit between us and the Lord. When He speaks to us by His Spirit it is Him speaking.
God is Spirit.
It is a mistake to follow after other voices, to follow other shepherds.
It is just a wrong to follow yourself.
Here are a few verses on the subject, there are plenty more.
I encourage people to get to know Jesus really, really, well. And to trust in Him alone and then they need not fear getting sucked into following something else. Jesus ability to reveal is far greater than satans ability to conceal.

Barley


Jer 11:7-8
7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.
(KJV)

John 10:1-5
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
(KJV)

John 10:6-14
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
(KJV)

John 10:24-30
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

Acts 9:4-5
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
(KJV)

Ezek 12:1-2
1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.
(NIV)

Matt 13:8-16
8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-- a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
9 He who has ears, let him hear."
10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
(NIV)

Matt 13:41-43
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(KJV)

Barley,

You certainly do have a strange way of finding Scripts to support your concepts. None of those verses refer to hearing an actual voice other than Paul who really did. What is written, was spoken, and therefore; that is the "voice" of God to us - in written form. Jesus even stated that His disciples would write down what He said. Anyone who hears a voice today is hearing additions to God's Word.

Let me ask you this - if Jesus voice is literal, then are we literal sheep, in a literal pen, coming in through a literal gate? Why is it that one can interpret one word and as being literal, and the rest is accepted as allegorical? Does an actual wolf come in among the sheep? Do we actually and literally go grazing in a meadow?

He who hath an ear, let him hear, is not referring to voice - it means the written Word of God.

I especially love it when I tell people that I heard a voice for many years and was obedient to it - and because they don't agree with my conclusions then say I was not hearing God, but they are better or more spiritually superior than me, and they really do hear God speak in a voice. What I thot was God speaking to me, was the exact same thing that you think is the voice of God, and what 1000s of others think is His voice. Whatever you think is God speaking to you, is exactly the same that I thought was God. We are no different, accept I chose to walk away from it because I realized it was deception. You want to revel in it, thinking you are above getting tricked/deceived. It just ain't so You believe that the voice you hear is your connection to God, and without the voice you do not have the Holy Spirit and cannot know the will of God.

I have a whole box full of things written down that the "Lord" spoke to me. I would bet my last dollar, that if you read what was written down, you would say it was God.

..................................
....................................


Lets see if I get this right.
You used to follow a voice you thought was Gods.
Now you think that voice you trusted as Gods was really a demon.
You made no mention of repenting of that.
Now you follow your own idea of what the Bible really says? Or is it that you follow someone else’s ideas?
Now you say that sometimes when the Bible says voice it means voice and sometimes it means written word.
You have stated over and over that you do not believe the plainly written words of Jesus, and you say that you can not hear the direct word from the Spirit.
Hmm, what exactly are you left with. A new interpretation of what you think Scripture is saying according to your experiences?
John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV)

John 14:15-18
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(KJV)

I Jn 2:27-28
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
(KJV)

Please explain to me how, if the plain and simple meaning of the very words of Jesus means something other than what He says, and you can not hear from the Spirit, but you can hear from demons, how just how do you think you can understand anything of God?
You can answer me if you like but I will not reply to anymore of your statements.
I really do believe that you indeed have heard from demons.
So sad.
Goodbye.

Barley