Who has it right?

[Rose of Shushan]

Barley it seems to me you are the one confused.Your last post doesnt make much sense to me. It just seems to be a bunch of digs at Sheep.
Sheep is saying the voice she used to hear did not come from God.You say she made no mention of repenting from that.Well hello,the fact she is now explaining to us how all this was a deception shows that she is no longer succumbing to that deception.
From your post it seems you are accusing Sheep of still listening to demons.In fact your post is downright offensive,sarcastic and demeaning.You have totally ignored the points she is making in her last post to you and instead choose to distort all she has said.
Its a shame you dont want to address any of the points Sheep has put to you as I wholeheartedly agree with all she posted to you and was interested to see your response.

[Rose of Shushan]

Mary I found your comments very helpful and they resonate with my own ideas of how the Holy spirit teaches us.
Personally I think that if someone were to hear voices that they say come from God on a regular basis I would think there are two reasons for this.One would be mental illness and the other would be that they come from a demonic source.
I do believe it is possible for people to hear the voice of God or Jesus on a selected occasion and with a definite purpose.But I think these cases are very rare.
God does not speak with people on a regular basis and audibly and clearly since this would not encourage people to live by faith.Instead his guidance is more subtle and also helps us to comfort ,edify and uplift one another.The gifts of the Holy spirit are not given for self edification or for the feel good factor but to help each other and in order to witness and proclaim the Gospel.
I read Barleys testimony on this site and Barley your experience that you described where you were getting words come to you and you write them down seems to be to me like the automatic writing or chanelling that is occultic and demonic.
If you seriously think that you heard from God just because it led your faith to become deeper then you are being deceived.I guess you think that because it leads you to a deeper faith that the fruit is good.But judging by what you said in your testimony could it be that you look for signs and wonders to validate your faith and the existence of God?And it is this which strengthened your faith.Maybe this is what is causing you to defend these voices and experiences because deep down they are the foundation on which you are building your faith.

[Mary]

"Instead his guidance is more subtle and also helps us to comfort ,edify and uplift one another.The gifts of the Holy spirit are not given for self edification or for the feel good factor but to help each other and in order to witness and proclaim the Gospel."

Thank you Rose. More and more what you say above is what is happening in my life (and I am very thankful and awed by that), but also sometimes for rebuke, to others and to myself.

---

"I hope you repented of it. "

Why do you hope this Barley? It is as if you are shaking a finger at Sheep, like a Pharisee. Is your way the right way? What is true religion? Repentance cannot be commanded by another. I think Sheep is uplifted and humbled and entirely grateful that God whom she has sincerely sought is found and speaks to her and all of us clearly and without secrecy and mysticism through His Word.


"It is a mistake to follow after other voices, to follow other shepherds."

You have said that you hear the voice of God - what has that voice said to you? can you please give us at least one example.

"It is just a(s) wrong to follow yourself."

Keep that in mind.

"Here are a few verses on the subject, there are plenty more."

the verses you quote lack context and have application more often than not to God's written word. Do you understand hermeneutics?

"I encourage people to get to know Jesus really, really, well."

What do you mean? Is this all under your or a person's control? Can we know God "really really well? He is the creator. He is not under our control. We open ourselves to Him, and ask Him to search us. He is Almighty God. What you are saying is similar to what rancherfor? and Strefanesh imply - that they can have control over God. (see my post earlier).

"And to trust in Him alone and then they need not fear getting sucked into following something else."

If you are hearing a "voice" how can you be sure it is God? Are you any less vulnerable than anyone else? If so, what makes you less vulnerable?
Here's a true story. I heard a woman who planned to become a missionary in Bosnia, give her testimony on the radio. Apparently god had told her that she was to leave her husband and young children for an indeterminate time and go to Bosnia as a missionary. The scripture that confirmed this "message" for her was the one that talks about the cows leaving the stalls (would this story also fit into A Merry Heart?), so she began her fundraising trail and was intent on leaving her family. I don't know what actually happened to her, but she is a wonderful example of someone who hears a voice and manipulates scripture to suit her own desires. How conveniently she can ignore scriptures which contradicted her plans, because she was not diligent to study to "show herself approved." Embarrassing really, and a heads up to all of us.


" Jesus ability to reveal is far greater than satans ability to conceal."

And Jesus has been so clear. There is no need for extra revelation.
The charismatic friend told me not long before our friendship ended, that she had had a special revelation from God through "tongues". I asked her what was the message, as it was worthless unless translated for the church. She said it was "stop playing games". Well, I could have told her that without any special revelation and in plain English. Nevertheless, it was clear to me, that even Satan cannot best God, and God has a truly wonderful sense of humour.

[Vic]

(12-12-2009 01:09 AM)Barley Wrote:  [quote='sheep wrecked' pid='4766' dateline='1260579600']
[quote='Barley' pid='4765' dateline='1260572164']

I don’t deny that you may indeed have been hearing a voice that was not of God.
However the Bible tells us over and over again that if we have ears to hear then we can hear from the Lord.
According to your story you did not hear the voice of the Lord but the voice of a deceiver.
That is very common among people. However that does not mean that God has not spoken to many, many people.
I hope you repented of it.
There is no conduit between us and the Lord. When He speaks to us by His Spirit it is Him speaking.
God is Spirit.
It is a mistake to follow after other voices, to follow other shepherds.
It is just a wrong to follow yourself.
Here are a few verses on the subject, there are plenty more.
I encourage people to get to know Jesus really, really, well. And to trust in Him alone and then they need not fear getting sucked into following something else. Jesus ability to reveal is far greater than satans ability to conceal.

Barley


..................................
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Lets see if I get this right.
You used to follow a voice you thought was Gods.
Now you think that voice you trusted as Gods was really a demon.
You made no mention of repenting of that.
Now you follow your own idea of what the Bible really says? Or is it that you follow someone else’s ideas?
Now you say that sometimes when the Bible says voice it means voice and sometimes it means written word.
You have stated over and over that you do not believe the plainly written words of Jesus, and you say that you can not hear the direct word from the Spirit.
Hmm, what exactly are you left with. A new interpretation of what you think Scripture is saying according to your experiences?
John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV)

John 14:15-18
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(KJV)

I Jn 2:27-28
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
(KJV)

Please explain to me how, if the plain and simple meaning of the very words of Jesus means something other than what He says, and you can not hear from the Spirit, but you can hear from demons, how just how do you think you can understand anything of God?
You can answer me if you like but I will not reply to anymore of your statements.
I really do believe that you indeed have heard from demons.
So sad.
Goodbye.

Barley

Barley, that voice you are listening to appears to affect your reading comprehension and ability to understand what is being said to you. Allow me to make it plain.

Sheep's former voice led astray, and made sinning for God ok. It made being 'special' to do these things and to be able to communicate in such a way the most privileged and godly experience possible--no one could get that close but someone as willing as Sheep--Just like YOU speak of. Just like the voice Stref and rancher listen to...and I just bet that if we took a real close look at what you do and what you believe and what you 'do' for that voice--it's not going to stand the test of Scripture--which is the Sword of the Spirit.

Sheep did repent -and it was a battle to have full deliverance of all the garbage doctrine that wrapped itself in with that voice-and Sheep has made that clear but you want to falsely accuse--not a good idea. It seems lately that the charismatic mindset is---can't defend position with Scripture--so attack and make all manner of false accusations. Sort of the 'spirit' behind it. Oh--in case you are confused, twisting and misusing scriptures to 'prove' your point is not defending your position with Scripture.

God speaks to us through His Word, the Holy Spirit giving understanding---and Mary hit the nail right on the head with her explanation.

As has been asked of you---when Jesus was sitting and teaching people---he was speaking audibly or using a chalk board and writing his words? I would guess that he was speaking audibly. When he or the apostles quoted OT scriptures---were those things written down somewhere or was there an audio cassette that people referenced?

I would guess that it was written down---and when it says, Jesus spoke these things to those present--it was an actual verbal communication--at that time:

Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:14-17 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Isaiah 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

So the written word was a prophesy about when Christ would be speaking on the earth, and people would not hear or comprehend who He was and what He had to say. And it became a written record for us in the NT--so we would be able to know what was said, what was taught for our growth and edification.

NOw since we are not living 2000 yrs ago--although apparently some are listening to some current 2000 yr old apostles and such ---we can assume that hearing those words means reading and comprehending those words. Which understanding can only come by having the indwelling HOly Spirit give us that understanding. Not by an audible voice, but through HIm we get understanding.

2 Corinthians 4:2-4 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Psa 119:125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.

Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa 119:129 PE. Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.
Psa 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

What did Jesus say and do?

Luke 24:44-45 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

And Paul>

Ephesians 1:17-19 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Odd don't you think that it doesn't say 'all scripture and an audible voice of God"?

And John >

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

And isn't it odd, that the Bereans didn't consult 'a voice' when proving whether what Paul taught was Scriptural--meaning God's written and inspired WORD.

Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Has God spoken audibly to people---of course--it's in the Scriptures, specifically in the OT, and limited times in the NT, therefore provable. Can He today--of course. Does He make that the normal way for believers to abide in Him or just charismatics or?

God gave His written Word as the source of doctrine--it is the Sword of the Spirit. It is being shown over and over again those who seek after the voice are being 'taught' things contrary to Scripture, and repeatedly shown that 'voice' is not God. God does not lie, He does not lead one into committing sin, He does not contradict any portion of HIS WORD--written so we would be able to prove all things that are acceptable to Him.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

It does not say take the sword of the Spirit which is the audible voice of God.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

word H565
אמרה / אמרה
'imrâh / 'emrâh
BDB Definition:
1) utterance, speech, word
1a) word of God, the Torah
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H561
Same Word by TWOT Number: 118b

You actually have to believe that the Word of God is in the Bible--that He inspired and gave the words to be written in order to believe that it is God-breathed and Alive to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Alive because the Holy Spirit makes it alive and gives understanding of it.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Scripture G1124
γραφή
graphē
Thayer Definition:
1) a writing, thing written
2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 1:749, 128

2 Peter 1:12-21 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14. Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 1:8-12 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

2 Peter 3:1-2 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2. That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Notice that Peter says he was writing and mentions the things spoken of by the prophets---hundreds of years previous---so there can be no confusion about 'hearing' versus having to audibly hear something versus the basic and easy to comprehend concept of grasping and understanding what is written. The written Word was given so all would have that standard of TRUTH. Not new revelation, not by whatever the 'voice' happens to give you for the day, but the Word so that we can prove our doctrine and beliefs to it. It is the standard God provided to teach us and those who follow a voice are being deceived. While thinking they are so incredibly spiritual and above all us little people who walk by faith instead of seeking signs and wonders to validate their beliefs.

Barley, you attack and make any false accusations again, and you also will be on a timeout from this forum. It gets a little old seeing the same charismatic mindset attacking and falsely accusing. Let this be a fair warning to you.

[King Lemuel III]

Hello:

This is a very tough question if you look at it as if there was the "perfect" Church or denomination. Look at the letters to the 7 Churches! Only a couple were doing great. The Bible deals with reality and with ideals that we aim at. The 7 Churches are reality. Ephesians 4 is the ideal, "gold, silver, precious stones" is the potential, "wood, hay, stuble" can be the reality.

I am a Lutheran and we recite the confessions, Apostles Creed, Nicea, Athanasius. I have always held to these creeds even before becoming a Lutheran. I once left a Church when its leadership got right up to and just about crossed the line by saying they were it and everyone outside was not. The Apostles Creed (that has been confessed for 18 centuries by Christians!) says "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of the Saints." Catholic there is "small c" catholic meaning universal. When one person or fellowship starts to trash the "small c" Catholic Church, I pack my bags and move on . Jesus will build his Church! As Paul wrote in Corinthians, we are being changed from "glory to glory." We have not yet arrived! Lets submit to God and show Christian love and charity to our fellow saints that either confess the creeds, or their faith and practice agrees with these creeds even when they are not a confessional Church. Paul's letters show we have problems to deal with and we need to trust God's word and encourage and submit "one to another."

[Lois]

King Lemuel,

I have a question or two, or 3 about what you said here,

Quote:Lets submit to God and show Christian love and charity to our fellow saints that either confess the creeds, or their faith and practice agrees with these creeds even when they are not a confessional Church. Paul's letters show we have problems to deal with and we need to trust God's word

I don't mean to take this thread even more off topic than it is but, where in God's word does it say we are to "confess the creeds"?
Where in God's word does it say that a person's faith and practices should agree with these creeds?

Where in the Bible does it say believers are to confess these creeds or they are not submitted to God?

Are these creeds God's word or man's word?

The Nicene creed is recited at Catholic mass. The apostles creed is part of the CATHOLIC ROSARY in fact, I found a diagram to post.



Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Where did Jesus or the Apostles ever preach/teach to recite creeds?