Labyrinths

[Scotchman]

You miss the point and make a wrong conclusion.

A Christian with an idol in their house is sinning whether they worship it or not.

Notice that I never mentioned anything about woorship.

If we put up an item in the manner of the Heathen, we are sinning by doing so.

And BTW, My wife made homemade pumkin pie and it was wonderful!

I agree with the Yum.

[sheep wrecked]

(01-30-2010 11:00 AM)Scotchman Wrote:  You miss the point and make a wrong conclusion.

A Christian with an idol in their house is sinning whether they worship it or not.

Notice that I never mentioned anything about woorship.

If we put up an item in the manner of the Heathen, we are sinning by doing so.

And BTW, My wife made homemade pumkin pie and it was wonderful!

I agree with the Yum.

An evergreen tree is not an idol.

If I have a statue of someone in my house, is that an idol?

How do you define what is "heathen" in your house? what if you have an object that some would view as an idol, but you are not aware of that? would you still be sinning? What if I have a plant in my house and decorate it at Christmas and keep lights on it year around - is that an idol?

Idols and worship go hand in hand. That is what the heathen do - it is the foundation of having the idol to begin with, whether one is bowing down or offering a sacrifice or praying to it.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:You miss the point and make a wrong conclusion.

A Christian with an idol in their house is sinning whether they worship it or not.

Notice that I never mentioned anything about woorship.

If we put up an item in the manner of the Heathen, we are sinning by doing so.

To me an idol is something that is worshipped and/or served as though it were God.And different things could be made into idols by different people and as such would only be an idol to those using it as such.For example a statue can be merely used to commemorate a person publicly and merely standing under the statue as you observe its workmanship would not mean that we were worshipping.A statue can nevetheless be turned into an idol and be worshipped,served or given honour as though it were a real person/thing with powers etc.
So I am curious as to how someone can sin by having something in their house that is considered an idol, when that person does not regard it as so.

The sun has been regarded as an idol by many so have the stars ,trees...so what do we do with those? Not look at them?ignore them?

[YYZ Skinhead]

(01-30-2010 05:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  

Quote:You miss the point and make a wrong conclusion.

A Christian with an idol in their house is sinning whether they worship it or not.

Notice that I never mentioned anything about woorship.

If we put up an item in the manner of the Heathen, we are sinning by doing so.

To me an idol is something that is worshipped and/or served as though it were God.And different things could be made into idols by different people and as such would only be an idol to those using it as such.For example a statue can be merely used to commemorate a person publicly and merely standing under the statue as you observe its workmanship would not mean that we were worshipping.A statue can nevetheless be turned into an idol and be worshipped,served or given honour as though it were a real person/thing with powers etc.
So I am curious as to how someone can sin by having something in their house that is considered an idol, when that person does not regard it as so.

The sun has been regarded as an idol by many so have the stars ,trees...so what do we do with those? Not look at them?ignore them?

I would broaden that definition to include any person, group or thing that anyone regards above God, i.e. as the most important thing in their lives. People will idolize ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING including inanimate objects and non-tangible concepts. Common American gods are money, power, sex/lust, fame, politics, politicians, religion, celebrities, sports, drugs, self, et cetera ad nauseam.

I never could figure out why humans make a god of the sun, since looking at it will permanently blind you. My astronomy prof said that people who looked at the sun saw an equidistant cross, which explains the number of world cultures that display equidistant crosses in national and ethnic symbolism. I think Constantine's vision of a flaming cross was the result of looking at the sun, not Divine inspiration.

[Vic]

Good points!

Some might find it helpful to read The Double Minded Man > http://www.seekgod.ca/idols.htm which has to do with idols of the heart.

[Scotchman]

(01-30-2010 06:13 PM)Vic Wrote:  Good points!

Some might find it helpful to read The Double Minded Man > http://www.seekgod.ca/idols.htm which has to do with idols of the heart.

Also remember this

Quote:To me an idol is something that is worshipped and/or served

Remember though, In Acts 15 we are to abstain from anything connected to an idol if it's public appearance may cause others to stumble by the appearance of Evil. All of this is forbidden.

A "Peace" sign on my car could be meaningless hippy junk. But it also has some dark meanings which could be problematic to my witness.

That is another concern which is being missed here.

A Christian (real or not) who displays pagan or worldly culture, is hurting their own witness and blaspheming God. Not even necessarily on purpose.

If a someone hears the guy from church talking about the christmas tree and sanat at church --- Do you realize how that looks? I hear it all the time in the world how Christians appear which bring in the Worldly Culture.

They see us all as a bunch of hypocrites.

As for me and My house, We will serve the Lord.

Everyone can make their own choice. I think we have presented all the relevant points necessary. Case closed.

[Vic]

Obviously God doesn't think fir trees are wicked, pagan and evil since He made them. And they appear to have use to glorify God in that they parellel the future of those who will be with God for eternity...amongst other purposes.

Isaiah 41:17-20 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. 18. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. 19. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree
together: 20. That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

What Scotchman is saying is that every thing related to or used in paganism in any manner must be evil and pagan. There are clear things developed for idol worship and paganism. Such as the ashteroth pole and idols fashioned out of stone, and wood etc. The zodiac, numerology etc are all occult things we are to have nothing to do with. I have written many articles concerning such things and not Christianising the occult.

However, God created the heavens and the earth and all plants, animals and such. Many pagans worship each and every aspect of creation, from the sun and the moon to animals and bugs. Therefore if we take the tac of what Scotchman is saying,...there is nothing on this earth that a believer can touch, or make use of in day to day living let alone for a celebration that recounts Biblical truth and focuses on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for most believers.

Quote:You can not christianize a pumpkim.
You can not christianize an ishtar egg.
You can not christianize a wafer offer to the queen of heaven.
You can not christianize a baal tree either.

Not one of those things listed --other than a pumpkin and an egg or a wafer or cracker or a tree....are part of anything Christians do.

Now, the next time someone buys a vehicle that has a name that could be related to a pagan god or practice, they have become involved in a pagan ritual, simply by applying this concept. The next time one discusses the planets with their children and uses the names mankind has given them, they are involved in paganism. If one drinks from a cup, they are involved in paganism because pagans use cups to drink their potions and such during particular rituals.

If pagans are getting up in the early hours to worship the coming of the sun---which is a pagan practice.....and Christians proceed to get up and worship the sun...they are involved in a pagan practice. If Christians get up early to consider what Almighty God has made and watch a sunrise, they are not part of a pagan practice.

However, if they bow and worship the same way as pagans for that event, with the same focus on the 'sungod' then they are following after another god. And involved in paganism.

If a Christian worships creation instead of the Creator they are violating their beliefs and what God called us to.

As Romans says:

Romans 1:16-32 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Does that sound like what believers are about?

If Christians promote Santa Claus, I think that is self evident it goes against what we are to be about. If a Christian enjoys the smell of a fir tree and places it in their home----that is not an evil thing--since God created them. Or do we think having a flowerpot with flowers in them is also evil? God said we are to have dominion over the earth and use it. If the intent is just a cultural thing, but the focus of that time is for Jesus Christ and proclaiming Him in a way that is an almost a worldwide
custom----then it can be used to declare the Truth of the Biblical Jesus Christ. And non Christians refer to it as Christ's birthday--even if they don't understand it.

Paul wrote he became a gentile to the gentiles to reach all for Christ. If someone uses the opportunity to declare Christ in an activity where people are not bowing down and worshipping that tree as a god--and any that may have a false focus are doing so spiritually not outwardly, because of not knowing Christ, then it cannot be condemned. Peter lived as the gentiles....in order to teach them about Christ. That means he was living with the heathen aka goy aka gentiles--from a Jewish perspective. He didn't worship idols, he didn't follow false gods....he proclaimed Christ in their 'world' where they were at.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Everything we are to do is for the furtherance of the Gospel and sharing Christ. If we virtually attack everything non believers do and become unapproachable, we miss beign able to do the very things we are called to do. Because if some things are simply cultural to non believers and can be used to share Christ--we need to use them, instead of condemning all those who do such things. There is a huge difference in idol worship and doing things of the world. There is a huge difference in showing love and compassion knowing someone does not know Christ, and condemning them for doing what to them is cultural or even religious--that refers to Christ. You can't help someone grow in Christ if all that is done is show condemnation and contempt for where they are at.

1 Corinthians 10:27-33 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29. Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30. For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 31. Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33. Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

I am not interested in the trees and such. But as I have said in other threads where this conversation has been carried from thread to thread---some things are to be up to the conscience of the person. Condemning believers for a tree, is missing the point of what we are to be about. And the contempt and condemnation is not of Christ. There are far greater spiritual concerns affecting those under the canopy of Christian than whether one has a fir tree in their living room.

Romans 14:4-13 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Romans 14:16-19 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Romans 14:22-23 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Christians have an obligation to present themselves in a manner that is Christ honoring, modest and not in rebellion to parents or whatever--which many activities, fashions and such are about in the world. However, Christians being called hypocrites isn't simply because of a Christmas tree....it is because many are not living Christ in the world. And many are dishonest and do things that dishonor Christ. Such as lie and have temper tantrums....all of which some need to consider before condemning others over a tree thinking that is the 'problem'. Many who reject Jesus Christ also condemn Christians simply because of Christ...Christians aren't perfect, hence the need for Christ, and all make mistakes and fail our Lord. The difference is in what we do about it. And most Christians who are living Christ will say, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. The difference is in acknowledging that Romans 14 applies to us and having charity to others on these types of issues. It doesn't mean we should be wordly but rather know that we are in the world and not of the world.

[Mary]

Much of Romans, especially Romans 14 has been quoted in this and similar discussions. I would like to add these verses from Romans 14 because I think they are also relevant:

1.Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

I think we are dealing with some doubtful disputations here.


6.He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

I think we need to look at the principle behind the words I have emboldened (!) - the praise and worship: the thanks: is going to God.


8.For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

This sums up what Vic has said in her last and other posts.


12 -13: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.


I think this is a crucial point in the matter, and something that we should give serious consideration to in our lifestyle choices; for example as Christians we should consider whether putting a bhudda statue in our home as art or decoration, or a dreamcatcher in a child's room, may cause a "weaker" Christian brother or sister to stumble (we might need to discuss stumble and stumbling block further). But think also on this, if we should decide not to celebrate Christmas and not to have a Christmas tree or decorations in our home, would we not provide questioning Christians and non believers with our reasons? And equally consider that not celebrating Christmas, may be a stumbling block to some weaker Christians.


16. Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
a warning that makes general what I discuss in the above point.


23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

When we desperately avoid things like Christmas trees, celebrations, easter eggs etc, we actually imbue them with the same power that those who worship them do.... just a thought.


17-19. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

[Vic]

Good thoughts Mary. To me it also is somewhat like the Pharisees who have forgotten the weightier things. I don't care to be involved in the commercialism or all the decorating etc...I just feel it unnecessary. But for those who enjoy these things....removing them can leave others to think you are Jehovah's witness or somewhat odd....

I do believe things such as dream catchers and buddha statues are clearly religious objects of worship used today--aka false gods and we need to not be involved in those things. I personally don't like ornaments of animals, people etc. Over the years I have just eliminated those types of things as questionable and unnecessary. That doesn't mean others think in those terms. I don't think it necessary to 'fight' about it with others. There's just more important things to focus on that are being used in taking people away from Scriptural Truth and Christ.

I was thinking last night that if all about Christmas/ easter or as some call it resurrection day, etc is pagan, and 'forbidden'...then singing the following must also be pagan under the statements being made. And yet, as I have stated, proclaiming Jesus Christ is what these things are about for many believers....One can see why those who reject Jesus Christ would not want a focus on the Biblical birth of Christ or His death and resurrection and rejoicing for all that has meant and would rather all public mention of these things disappear. Undoubtedly some songs are not Scripturally sound and carry false doctrine. However....that is why our witness must proclaim the Truth of Jesus Christ. The book of Psalms means "praises" in Hebrew, and denotes a sacred song sung to worship and Praise the Lord. Many hymns are based directly from the Psalms or other Scriptures.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

'Joy to the World'
Joy to the World , the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the World, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.
_____________
Hark the herald angels sing

Hark the herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!
Peace on earth and mercy mild
God and sinners reconciled"
Joyful, all ye nations rise
Join the triumph of the skies
With the angelic host proclaim:
"Christ is born in Bethlehem"
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Christ by highest heav'n adored
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold Him come
Offspring of a Virgin's womb
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Hail the heav'n-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Son of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings
Ris'n with healing in His wings
Mild He lays His glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"
________________________

O Holy Night
O Holy Night! The stars are brightly shining,
It is the night of the dear Saviour's birth.
Long lay the world in sin and error pining.
Till He appeared and the Spirit felt its worth.
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices,
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.
Fall on your knees! Oh, hear the angel voices!
O night divine, the night when Christ was born;
O night, O Holy Night , O night divine!
O night, O Holy Night , O night divine!

Led by the light of faith serenely beaming,
With glowing hearts by His cradle we stand.
O'er the world a star is sweetly gleaming,
Now come the wisemen from out of the Orient land.
The King of kings lay thus lowly manger;
In all our trials born to be our friends.
He knows our need, our weakness is no stranger,
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!

Truly He taught us to love one another,
His law is love and His gospel is peace.
Chains he shall break, for the slave is our brother.
And in his name all oppression shall cease.
Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we,
With all our hearts we praise His holy name.
Christ is the Lord! Then ever, ever praise we,
His power and glory ever more proclaim!
His power and glory ever more proclaim!
______________________________
While Shepherds watched

While shepherds watched
Their flocks by night
All seated on the ground
The angel of the Lord came down
And glory shone around
And glory shone around

"Fear not," he said,
For mighty dread
Had seized their troubled minds
"Glad tidings of great joy I bring
To you and all mankind,
To you and all mankind."

"To you in David's
Town this day
Is born of David's line
The Savior who is Christ the Lord
And this shall be the sign
And this shall be the sign."

"The heavenly Babe
You there shall find
To human view displayed
And meanly wrapped
In swathing bands
And in a manger laid
And in a manger laid."
.....
____

[Vic]

Regarding Dreamcatchers, I wrote about them in
http://www.seekgod.ca/plus.htm#dream

which is part of the series > Perverted Christianity: How Do YOU Score?http://www.seekgod.ca/perverted.htm

You can see the whole list of topics discussed by scrolling down this page towards the bottom > http://www.seekgod.ca/topicdoctrine.htm

Dream Catchers ~the shamanism of DreamCatchers, which is based upon the Masonic point within a circle, is found in the Legend of the DreamCatcher 37which tells the history of this talisman to ward off bad dreams. "...The web is a perfect circle with a hole in the center. Use the web to help your people reach their goals, making good use of their ideas, dreams and visions. If you believe in the great spirit, the web will catch your good ideas and the bad ones will go through the hole." The elder passed on his vision to the people and now many Indian people hang a dream catcher above their bed to sift their dreams and visions. The good is captured in the web of life and carried with the people, but the evil in their dreams drops through the hole in the center of the web and is no longer a part of their lives. It's said that the dream catcher holds the destiny of the future...." 37.http://www.dreamcatchers.org/dcat16T.html



Of course we know Buddha statues are about worshipping Buddha.