Religion

[sheep wrecked]

(09-06-2009 12:44 AM)Izzy Wrote:  We have to be vigilant to be in the faith and in the way we conduct our prayer life. I believe that’s what you are saying here and I agree! That said, shouldn’t we be reluctant to be critical of how others pray (unless they are specifically praying against the revealed Will of God)? After all, only God sees the heart of the supplicant. And, per Romans, when we don’t know how to pray as we ought, the Spirit intercedes for us. Isn’t it better for people to be reaching out to God than to discourage and stifle them?

I am not sure that Romans 8 is referring to a "prayer life". I think the NT shows that prayer is much simpler, and less complex than we tend to make it. I fear that for many, prayer is the "magic talisman" used to "get" from God. I do not see that God moves because we pray, but because it is His will.

The context of Romans 8 show that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in regard to our infirmities which the Spirit intercedes for. What are those infirmities - verse 24 and 25 show that this is the hope we must have in Christ and having the patience to live our lives in that hope - which in our flesh we cannot do, but only by the Spirit in us.

Rom 8:24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;
Rom 8:27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Quote:Our children have made requests of us, sometimes multiple times for added emphasis! Others observing them may believe they’re insincere or annoying, and sometimes they ARE - but we usually know when our kids are playing us. Sometimes they have a real need that they just don’t have the maturity to express in what we would consider a more appropriate manner. We still want them to come to us with those requests though, don’t we? We know that as they mature they will learn to change. God allows the weeds to grow with the good grain and lets us know if the weeds are pulled some of the good crop may be destroyed. Besides at some stages of growth it’s pretty hard for us human gardeners to tell which shoot will be a weed and which will be a flower.[/color]

I am a bit confused - I am not sure what you mean by weeds growing in with good grain in regard to prayer or giving to others? I think that Jesus was referring to the tares sown into the wheat that concern unbelievers sown in with believers - and until the last day when Christ sends His angels with the sickle to destroy, we will not know exactly who do not belong to God.

I am also curious as to our kids asking for stuff compared to asking God. Jesus said that our Father knows what we need before we ask, so don't worry about it. Maybe I am simplifying things too much? I see petitions to God as us laying our lives at His feet that His will be done. We tend to see with tunnel vision, not the big picture like God does. I sometimes wonder if the verses that are instructive about prayer have to do with spiritual things, not worldly things - but that is just my little old opinion

Quote:As far as praying for protection, I see nothing amiss about taking the need for protection for others or ourselves to our heavenly Father. The desire to feel safe and protected is a very basic human need that many of us may not have met in this human existence. Protection in the sense we’re talking about here has synonyms like: security, refuge, safety, guard, defense, shield, and bulwark. (Sounds like the Psalms doesn’t it?) We’re told to take all our requests to the Lord, to cast all our cares on God.

The Psalmist asks to be delivered from the evil man, preserved from the violent man. Jesus taught his disciples to pray saying lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Faithful Paul said in 2nd Timothy the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work - while someone like me generally prays “please deliver me from every evil work.” Some of the synonyms for deliver are to set-free, liberate, disburden, deliver, extricate, rescue, save, emancipate, redeem, ransom; bring off, bring through, snatch from the jaws of death, come to the rescue. Doesn’t it seem that asking to be delivered is conceptually like asking to be protected?

I think we have a different perspective on this. To have no fear about life is to be at rest and at peace in Christ. Why should I be concerned for my safety when God controls my life? I don't think I have to ask God to protect me, I am not sure why I should??? His will will be fulfilled in my life no matter what because I belong to Him. Nothing can stop God from doing His purpose.

Asking for protection guarantees nothing, from my perspective. It is up to God to protect according to His will. Sometimes we are and sometimes we are not, no matter how much we pray or believe for it. Life is a realistic example of this, so it seems to me that prayer should be centered in God's will, to know Him, to know His truth, to know His love - these are the things that Paul prayed for. Not once in the NT does anyone pray for protection.

As far as David goes, I think he was praying to be delivered from evil men to do the will of God. He knew that God had chosen him to be the King of Israel and Saul was making his life miserable by trying to hunt him down and kill him. I marvel at David's prayers in his psalms because they were about God fulfilling His promise to David, in spite of the danger and evil surrounding him. God kept David safe because His plan for David was kingship.

Quote:Regarding hedges, there are a number of references in the Bible to hedges being protective or being broken, ergo not protective, in addition to the well-known verses in Job. Importantly, Israel was “hedged in” by God. Vineyards which of course were valuable, were commonly “hedged in” by stone and/or mud walls and sometimes thorns were also placed on top of them to help keep out wild beasts. In Matthew & Mark a parable of Jesus regarding the certain householder who planted a vineyard and hedged it round about is told. Many people, including me, view a number of these “hedging in” verses as referencing God’s protective nature; and as related to the setting apart of God’s own people. I don’t find it problematic from a Christian standpoint to ask the Lord to hedge others in, especially my children. And I pray He will hedge each of you in, front and back, round about

God may have put a hedge around Job, but He also crushed it, as He allowed satan to crush Job. A hedge is simply a way of stating that God protects for His purposes. It is not something we can pray for because God already has our lives laid out well in advance.

Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, And laid thy hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, And thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall overwhelm me, And the light about me shall be night;
Psa 139:12 Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks unto thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Psa 37:23 If the LORD delights in a man's way,
he makes his steps firm;

I don't see that Israel had a hedge either. Certainly God protected them at times, but He also sent the angel of death to destroy them and later He allowed them to be dispersed and taken captive by the nations. The disciples definitely did not have a hedge of protection most of the time - they were beaten, imprisoned, and finally martyred.

When I was in the charismatic movement, the hedge thing was very prominent. I used to pray for a hedge around me, my property, my house, my kids, my finances, my marriage. I also did the "plead the blood thing" as well. I lost everything - that was God's grace and His "hedge" for me

Quote:I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…1 Tim 2:1-5

Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. John 16:24.

Those are wonderful verses, but I truly see them as regarding the spiritual, not the physical. Note the bolded phrases - we are to pray that we are given the opportunity to lead others to salvation. That is the context.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;
1Ti 2:7 whereunto I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth, I lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1Ti 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and disputing.

When Jesus said that our joy would be full, it was not that we would have a bunch of stuff, but that we would have the indwelt Spirit. This is what Paul prayed for in this regard:

Eph 1:15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which ye show toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might
Eph 1:20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.