Religion

[Izzy]

SW,
There are portions of the discussion that we agree on and obviously others that we don't agree on. I took a little time before to attempting to respond to your comments because I respect what you have to say. I just can't agree with all of it. Why does God show mercy to one and harden the heart of another? I don't pretend to know and I would probably distrust anyone, other than our Lord, who claimed that they had the answers. There are certainly Bible verses that I know you are aware of that support the power of prayer and asking and receiving - particularly in the Gospels. However I would guess that you probably have decided that those passages solely apply to the spiritual, while I think they can encompass all areas.

Pain - what can I say - Pain is pain. But don't we usually learn more from it than without it? How can God take it away if it's such a good teaching tool? It's part of the refiner's fire.

If God doesn't respond to our prayers it would imply to me that the creator of this dynamic universe set things in motion and became static. I just don't believe that. Even the desks we're working on are not static at the atomic level. Our God didn't create anything that isn't active as far as I can tell from scripture and even from science. Even His Word is living and active.

My original comment was about not discouraging people from praying - and even if we don't get the answers we (think) we want and even if we are disappointed in or angry with God sometimes because we don't understand His ways and even if other people think we're making silly requests of Him - I just have to stand by that. Otherwise I might choke off someone's beginning communications with their Heavenly Father and I think that would be far worse. We just don't know what work our Father is doing in them.

Work is "powering" up again and I only seem to sit down to write so late! God bless you SW...and may the Lord also bless & keep each one who thoughtfully reads this discussion. Goodnight

[sheep wrecked]

(09-10-2009 12:55 AM)Izzy Wrote:  SW,
TThere are certainly Bible verses that I know you are aware of that support the power of prayer and asking and receiving - particularly in the Gospels. However I would guess that you probably have decided that those passages solely apply to the spiritual, while I think they can encompass all areas.

I am not aware of any text that speak of the "power of prayer". Perhaps you could list those - that would be great

Jesus said that our Father knows our physical needs before we ask. So does that mean it is necessary to pray for them? As I stated before, the only prayer in the NT asking for a physical need was Paul and God told him His grace was sufficient. If we look at Paul's prayers, not one of them petition God for anything but the spiritual. And Paul suffered physically at tremendous cost - yet not once does he speak of praying for relief or for food or clothing or to be released from prison. Instead, we see that He thanks God for his "infirmities" because in His weakness, God is made strong in him.

I am fine with you disagreeing with me. Just trying to present another side, because it is obvious that we do not receive what we pray for more times than what we do when it comes to physical things. So the "equation" that people are assuming has a definite glitch to it.

From what I understand, it is not the petition that makes prayer important, but submission to God's will, and being content where one is. Prayer is to glorify God and communicate with Him in a deep devoted relationship. For myself, worshiping God is far better than presenting Him with a list, like I was once taught to do. I guess we just have different perspectives. So far God has supplied me abundantly, without asking. But if praying for stuff works for you, then go for it

Quote:Pain - what can I say - Pain is pain. But don't we usually learn more from it than without it? How can God take it away if it's such a good teaching tool? It's part of the refiner's fire.

Through pain God shows us His strength and faithfulness. Some people live a life of pain that never lets up until the day they die. That does not mean God is any less with them or loves them any less. When God lifts pain, it is His will and His grace and mercy, not because we ask, because many who pray for it do not receive it.

I am not sure what you mean by refiner's fire in regard to pain or a teaching tool? The only context that I am familiar with in regard to that is charismatic teachings. Is it in the Bible?

Quote:If God doesn't respond to our prayers it would imply to me that the creator of this dynamic universe set things in motion and became static. I just don't believe that. Even the desks we're working on are not static at the atomic level. Our God didn't create anything that isn't active as far as I can tell from scripture and even from science. Even His Word is living and active.

So if a sincere prayer by a righteous person is not answered, then .......?

Quote:My original comment was about not discouraging people from praying - and even if we don't get the answers we (think) we want and even if we are disappointed in or angry with God sometimes because we don't understand His ways and even if other people think we're making silly requests of Him - I just have to stand by that. Otherwise I might choke off someone's beginning communications with their Heavenly Father and I think that would be far worse. We just don't know what work our Father is doing in them.

I think you are misunderstanding my position. I have never implied that people should not pray. Communication with God is vital, critical, and must be preeminent in order for a solid, loving relationship with God. We are to speak to God as a friend, as our Creator and Savior. We owe Him a debt we cannot pay. He owes us nothing - He has given us everything in Christ. Life here is for serving God and loving Him and then loving and caring for those God places in our lives. How merciful that He allows us to be His servants and will give us what we need in order to fulfill His plan and purpose in our lives. That is what I tell new believers.

Quote:Work is "powering" up again and I only seem to sit down to write so late! God bless you SW...and may the Lord also bless & keep each one who thoughtfully reads this discussion. Goodnight

Thanx for the discussion - I am enjoying it

[Izzy]

[quote='sheep wrecked' pid='4059' dateline='1252615386']
[quote='Izzy' pid='4054' dateline='1252558522']

Hi again,
Actually I think I’ve pretty well covered the comments I wanted to share and I see that another thread has taken up the matter of prayer as well. I’m not sure if you’re really asking me questions at this point or if what sounds like questions are really more along the lines of commentary? Anyway in response to your questions….

I am not aware of any text that speak of the "power of prayer". Perhaps you could list those - that would be great

Perhaps you would have preferred that I had said – verses that support the “implied” power of prayer? Ask & it shall be given; if 2 agree..; by prayer & supplication make your requests to God; the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, etc.

... If we look at Paul's prayers, not one of them petition God for anything but the spiritual. And Paul suffered physically at tremendous cost - yet not once does he speak of praying for relief...

Paul asked to have his thorn in the flesh removed 3 times. The Biblical author didn’t find it necessary to provide us with all the details involved in those requests or even what the thorn actually was, but I would see that as praying for relief from what ailed him...& God apparently chose not to answer the prayer in the way it was requested, instead Paul was to rely on God’s Grace for his sufferings. I see this as an example of God refining someone, teaching someone, in part through some painful malady.

I am not sure what you mean by refiner's fire in regard to pain or a teaching tool? The only context that I am familiar with in regard to that is charismatic teachings. Is it in the Bible?


There are a number of Bible verses that reference the refining process of metals as an allegory for how God works in us. I’m sure you are familiar with them in Isaiah – smelt away your dross and also refined in the furnace of affliction; in Jeremiah – melt them & try them; in Zechariah – refine as silver, try as gold and Malachi’s references – he is like a refiner’s fire and also, he will sit as a smelter , etc. So yes I think the concept is in the Bible and that it would imply that when we're held in that refining fire to get rid of the dross it's likely to be a painful experience.

So if a sincere prayer by a righteous person is not answered, then .......?


A sincere prayer is always answered, but just like we don’t always say yes to our children, God doesn’t always say yes to us. In my opinion not getting the answer we had hoped for or in the time frame we had hoped for doesn't mean our prayers aren't answered. Without the benefit of God's foresight we have to learn to have faith that God is acting according to His Will.

I think we've both pretty well covered this topic for now, don't you?

[sheep wrecked]

(09-12-2009 07:32 PM)Izzy Wrote:  Hi again,
Actually I think I’ve pretty well covered the comments I wanted to share and I see that another thread has taken up the matter of prayer as well. I’m not sure if you’re really asking me questions at this point or if what sounds like questions are really more along the lines of commentary? Anyway in response to your questions….

Forums are for discussion, both questions and commentary - verbal "sparring" is sometimes not for the faint of heart

Quote:sheep:I am not aware of any text that speak of the "power of prayer". Perhaps you could list those - that would be great

Izzy: Perhaps you would have preferred that I had said – verses that support the “implied” power of prayer? Ask & it shall be given; if 2 agree..; by prayer & supplication make your requests to God; the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, etc.

It would be helpful if you would post the texts, because I not aware by the phrasing that you are recalling states that there is such a thing as the "power of prayer". The fervent prayer of a righteous man does not guarantee that what is prayed for is given. Which I think would contradict the "power of prayer". If there was such a thing as the "power of prayer", then all of requests would be answered as we prayed them.

Quote:sheep:... If we look at Paul's prayers, not one of them petition God for anything but the spiritual. And Paul suffered physically at tremendous cost - yet not once does he speak of praying for relief...

Izzy: Paul asked to have his thorn in the flesh removed 3 times. The Biblical author didn’t find it necessary to provide us with all the details involved in those requests or even what the thorn actually was, but I would see that as praying for relief from what ailed him...& God apparently chose not to answer the prayer in the way it was requested, instead Paul was to rely on God’s Grace for his sufferings. I see this as an example of God refining someone, teaching someone, in part through some painful malady.

What I stated is that Paul did not pray for relief for all the infirmities, beatings, ship wrecks, nakedness, famine, poverty, etc - he stated that in his weaknesses God was made strong in him.

I am sure you would agree that Paul was a righteous man. If the prayer of a righteous man is effectual aka the "power of prayer" as it's called, then he would have been rid of his thorn. The passage does not state that God was "refining" Paul or "teaching him a lesson", other than to keep him from pride.

Quote:sheep: I am not sure what you mean by refiner's fire in regard to pain or a teaching tool? The only context that I am familiar with in regard to that is charismatic teachings. Is it in the Bible?


Izzy: There are a number of Bible verses that reference the refining process of metals as an allegory for how God works in us. I’m sure you are familiar with them in Isaiah – smelt away your dross and also refined in the furnace of affliction; in Jeremiah – melt them & try them; in Zechariah – refine as silver, try as gold and Malachi’s references – he is like a refiner’s fire and also, he will sit as a smelter , etc. So yes I think the concept is in the Bible and that it would imply that when we're held in that refining fire to get rid of the dross it's likely to be a painful experience.

I think I found most of the verses, although, I really wish you would post them next time. It is most important when referring to these verses what the context is. So I will post them and show that these verses do not refer to a "refiner's fire" in the life of a believer.

I could not find "smelt away your dross", although the word purge in verse 25 does mean smelt, but I did find this passage in Isaiah which refers to Israel. God is speaking of their rebellion and that He will purge them bringing them back to Himself [a remnant]. This passage does not refer to a believer being purged of dross nor does it refer to a "refining fire".

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isa 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
Isa 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

This is the passage referring to the furnace of affliction. Again, this refers to Israel who was taken captive due to her rebellion. She lost many battles and Israel was spit into two kingdoms and ruled by many wicked godless men one after another.

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Isa 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

This next passage again refers to Irsael's wickedness. It's pretty obvious that melting and trying is punishment for their rebellion, not meant for those who belong to the Lord.

Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
Jer 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jer 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
Jer 9:6 Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.
Jer 9:7 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will melt them, and try them; for how shall I do for the daughter of my people?
Jer 9:8 Their tongue is as an arrow shot out; it speaketh deceit: one speaketh peaceably to his neighbour with his mouth, but in heart he layeth his wait.
Jer 9:9 Shall I not visit them for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
Jer 9:10 For the mountains will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness a lamentation, because they are burned up, so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle; both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled; they are gone.
Jer 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.

Here again, we see that God is speaking to the corrupt priesthood and prophesying that Christ will come and take away sin, reconciling the people to God through Christ. It is not something that needs to be done to a believer.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Quote:sheep: So if a sincere prayer by a righteous person is not answered, then .......?


Izzy: A sincere prayer is always answered, but just like we don’t always say yes to our children, God doesn’t always say yes to us. In my opinion not getting the answer we had hoped for or in the time frame we had hoped for doesn't mean our prayers aren't answered. Without the benefit of God's foresight we have to learn to have faith that God is acting according to His Will.

I think we've both pretty well covered this topic for now, don't you?

Actually, I think you have sort of gone off the trail a bit The point of the discussion is the "power of prayer" in that if a righteous person prays they will get what they prayed for. That is the premise of the concept. If a righteous person prays and does not get what they petitioned for, then there was no power exhibited.

I am not arguing that God answers either negatively and positively, because all that He wills and gives is good - which leaves the "power of prayer", ineffective and non-existent.