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***Vic*** · 10-19-2009, 10:56 AM

(10-19-2009 08:00 AM)Pilgrim Wrote: Accepted Canons from the Council of Nicea, from the online Catholic Encyclopedia:

•Canon 1: On the admission, or support, or expulsion of clerics mutilated by choice or by violence.
•Canon 2: Rules to be observed for ordination, the avoidance of undue haste, the deposition of those guilty of a grave fault.
•Canon 3: All members of the clergy are forbidden to dwell with any woman, except a mother, sister, or aunt.
•Canon 4: Concerning episcopal elections.
•Canon 5: Concerning the excommunicate.
•Canon 6: Concerning patriarchs and their jurisdiction.
•Canon 7: confirms the right of the bishops of Jerusalem to enjoy certain honours.
•Canon 8: concerns the Novatians.
•Canon 9: Certain sins known after ordination involve invalidation.
•Canon 10: Lapsi who have been ordained knowingly or surreptitiously must be excluded as soon as their irregularity is known.
•Canon 11: Penance to be imposed on apostates of the persecution of Licinius.
•Canon 12: Penance to be imposed on those who upheld Licinius in his war on the Christians.
•Canon 13: Indulgence to be granted to excommunicated persons in danger of death.
•Canon 14: Penance to be imposed on catechumens who had weakened under persecution.
•Canon 15: Bishops, priests, and deacons are not to pass from one church to another.
•Canon 16: All clerics are forbidden to leave their church. Formal prohibition for bishops to ordain for their diocese a cleric belonging to another diocese.
•Canon 17: Clerics are forbidden to lend at interest.
•Canon 18: recalls to deacons their subordinate position with regard to priests.
•Canon 19: Rules to be observed with regard to adherents of Paul of Samosata who wished to return to the Church.
•Canon 20: On Sundays and during the Paschal season prayers should be said standing.

Pilgrim, what the Catholic church advocates has nothing to do with our living for Christ according to the Scriptures. It doesn't matter. There have always been true believers who followed Christ-we have the record. And the protestant reformation did allow for people to again read the Bible themselves and enter in to "studying to show themselves approved". By depending on the the Holy Spirit to teach. You see, just as the Bereans searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true--they had their own copies of the OT, and then as the epistles were distributed and duplicated, those were circulated in authority from God, because they are the NT. For example, Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What matters is your relationship with Jesus Christ. And in all your posts you have never discussed that issue. It's always some history or some writer or something pagan or whatever. Sheep pointed out that manuscripts used for the KJV and earlier versions are validated by DSS fragments.. If you want to discount what it is in the Scriptures--which leads many to Christ, that's your choice. If you want to search all those things from the past--Paul said 'forgetting the things of the past', that is your choice.

Being that your background in the Oneness movement was so horrific, does not mean that is what knowing Christ and living for Him is about. But as I have said several times ---it's about your relationship with Christ and depending on Him to lead in straight paths, and allowing the Holy Spirit to open your understanding. It's not a hidden mystery, that must be found in the writings of historians, or finding some denomination or thought unattainable. It is what is promised to all those who belong to Christ. You are caught up in the hopeless statement of "what is truth". It's in the Scriptures and in your very being if you know Christ.

The faith once delivered to the saints is in the Scriptures. My advice to you is Look there and quit worrying about what the catholics did or what someone said 1500 years ago. They did much that was not of Christ and still do. The Scriptures are the record God has given to us in order to know the Truth and know Him through Christ. If you don't accept that or believe it...then you are on a hopeless quest.

I was asked once if I adhered to westminster creed or the nicene creed or I believe some other one was mentioned. And when I said I am not familiar with those, but believe the whole Bible and having a relationship with Jesus Christ, I was told that wasn't good enough. I needed to adhere to whatever. Well, what we believe is all over this website. And it makes no difference if someone agrees or disagrees with our stand in Christ. We aren't living as pagans, we aren't pretending to be something we aren't, we aren't advocating sin, we aren't advocating following men, or idols or traditions---we point people to Jesus Christ and the Word of God. And that is where the 'search for truth' becomes living for His Truth. Living for Christ is what is about. Look to Him and He will show you what matters through His Word.

Strefanash · (This post was last modified: 10-22-2009 10:50 AM by Strefanash.)

Ok, let's say your absolutely right about Tertullian. Let me agree with you for a few minutes. His perspective is completely skewed and blasphemous, and we should ignore everything he says.

Stref: I never said this, because to say so would be the ad hominem fallacy. So he coined the term trinity. so what? the reality he was talking about is found in the bible, that God is God, Jesus is God and the Spirit is God.

But his fruit was as foul as I have said, all it takes is to read some history

(10-18-2009 11:58 AM)Pilgrim Wrote:
(10-18-2009 12:13 AM)Strefanash Wrote: i am sorry but you appear to be denying sola scriptura.

If you drink water that is close to the source, it is generally more pure than water that is miles away from it, picking up contaminants along the way. Which do you prefer to drink?

NKJV

false metaphor. see below

What kind of purity are you referring to?

would you have me believe that the overall bible interpretation of the man who slept with his stepmother (as in corinthians) is better than any of us, even better than those of Tertullian becasue this guy was FIRST century?

The interpretations of an embittered, sarcastic misogynist who flirted with heresy (he got involved in montanism) are purer than anyone elses just because he died 1600 years ago?

I dont dispute he said some true things. it would be ad hominem to use his fruit to deny he ever did. but why dive into a sewer to look for a copper piece when we have the keys to the bank of heaven wherein is the purest gold bullion

you are correct that we should go to the source, but the source is not a book or a tradition.

IT IS A PERSON, one who rose from the dead and who is alive now.

as for the metaphor about drinking pure water closer to the source, you have fallaciously used it. Was Tertullian closer to christ because he died abvout 1600 years ago?

are you saying they were spiritual examples to us?

The ancient world was riddled with gnosticism - the worldview in the late roman empire was world weary and anti life, which is the seed bed for gnostic heresy. so they were no closer to the truth than we are. they misunderstood the Master's doctrine as we do. it might help to know how He expressed it by studying some ancient culture but that is a very differnt things from thinking they were more spiritual than anyone else. after all were your line valid surely the pharisees, being the closest in doctrine to christ (the saducees denied the resurrection) and being his contemporaries, understood the Man perfectly!

I am not about rejecting a historico grammatical analysis, and clearly understanding some ancient history abd greek is helpful. I have read a lot of ancient history and church history. Which is why i am not impressed by it. A preacher who blackmailed a roman emperor to back down from his order to have a synagogue rebuilt which was wrecked by a "christian mob" (St Ambrose) is no exemplar in my book

and clearly knowing something of ancient culture is relevant, after all the force of the tale of the good samaritan comes from knowing the jews hated the samaritans

but the purity of ones interpretations comes from ones standing with Him, and is shown by our fruit.

i dont judge the bible by the ideas of some ancients preacher just because he was ancient. I judge the ancient preachers by the Bible .

you have misunderstood sola scriptura

I dont understand quantum physics whereby a particle is said to be in more than one place at the same time.

If you accept mystery in the abstruse realms of science why not in theology?

Somehow God is three as well as one. I did not write the book, I dont pretend to understand it. but i dont have to

Use the same analogy, but use a chain of people extending 2,000 years into the past. No wonder we have so many strange doctrines today. The explosion of denominationalism attests to many people interpreting things differently than their fellow neighbor. Is that the way it is supposed to be?

Stref: this is only valid if Jesus is dead and the Holy Spirit is not given. If Jesus is alive and we have the Spirit then even though many fit the above it is not an absolute

and no, heresies do not only arise for the reason you give above. they arise as we are too proud to acccept what is said in plain words in the Book.

that is why i am still a pelagian heretic in my heart of hearts

So, when someone goes sola scriptura, does one use as a base the Bible of the Council of Nicea (around 325 AD, which incidentally is also when the Catholic Church is commonly understood to have begun, although they claim lineage back to Christ).

Stref: oh come now!! the word catholic was greek for mainline (lit universal), it was used by christians to distinguish themselves from heretics like the arians. and as for roman catholicism, that was in long and slow evolution. after all the 7 sacraments were finally codified by acquinas in the 12th century.

the catholic church did not begin in 325, the christian churh began at pentecost and slowly drifted away over centuries

Vic

I was asked once if I adhered to westminster creed or the nicene creed or I believe some other one was mentioned. And when I said I am not familiar with those, but believe the whole Bible and having a relationship with Jesus Christ, I was told that wasn't good enough

Stref: Good grief!! I have lost interest in the church creeds altogether. they strike me as legalistic summaries that did not produce faith so much as conceal unbelief beneath legal compulsion.

they are not summaries of what christians believe, rather they are summaries of what many christians think they SHOULD believe.

I dont go by creeds, i judge them according to the Bible, and i get a sense of gnotic taint in the creed they sing at catholic mass {light of light . . etc etc etc

I hold that creeds have little value and can do much harm. not because i deny a standard oftruth, far from it, but because of the harm legalistic coercion in the name of creeds can do

So i must be damned too