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Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
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12-02-2009, 01:56 PM
Post: #11
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
[quote sheep]
"Who was Jesus speaking to? the apostles. Who did Jesus give the authority to? the apostles." In John 13 35 Jesus described those to whom He was speaking as His disciples, if they loved one another. We know there were apostles there among the disciples when Jesus was speaking but nowhere in John's letter does he quote Jesus as speaking only to apostles. If you say that Jesus does then you are misrepresenting Jesus, and I know that is not your intent. John 13:34-35 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (KJV) John 14 11-12 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. In the preceding verses Jesus makes it real plain when He says "ANYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME". He does not say anyone of YOU who has faith in Me but simply, clearly "ANYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME" I think it wonderful that all these words of Jesus are for anyone who has faith in Him. Glory to God!!!!!!!!!!! John 14:15-26 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (KJV) |
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12-02-2009, 10:49 PM
Post: #12
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-02-2009 01:56 PM)Barley Wrote: [quote sheep] Well, ya see, Barley - you have a problem interpreting it that way because Scripture shows it did not happen in that manner. So either Jesus lied or it was fulfilled differently than how some have interpreted it. There is NO evidence in Acts that anyone other than the 12 apostles - including Paul, and Stephen did miracles, signs and wonders, healed, and cast out demons. When you look at the references to signs and wonders, it clearly states that only the apostles did them. In the end times, the only ones doing signs and wonders are false christs and false prophets. Paul states they are of satan. Please tell me how signs and wonders could possibly deceive even the elect? Because they appear to be of God - satan transformed as an angel of light, as are his ministers. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. [the apostle Paul and Barnabas] Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. [apostle Paul] 2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, |
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12-03-2009, 01:17 AM
Post: #13
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
[quote sheep]
Well, ya see, Barley - you have a problem interpreting it that way because Scripture shows it did not happen in that manner. So either Jesus lied or it was fulfilled differently than how some have interpreted it. There is NO evidence in Acts that anyone other than the 12 apostles - including Paul, and Stephen did miracles, signs and wonders, healed, and cast out demons. ……………………………………………. Well sheep I don’t have a problem with the way it is plainly and simply written in John. And I do not even have to consider if Jesus lied because None of the books of the Bible contradict one another. I do have difficulty relating what you say to what is actually written in Scripture, please be patient with me. You say in part “……. There is NO evidence in Acts that anyone other than the 12 apostles - including Paul, and Stephen did miracles,….” Are you saying in part that you believe there were only 12 apostles in the Bible including Paul and Stephen? |
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12-03-2009, 11:59 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2009 02:17 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #14
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-03-2009 01:17 AM)Barley Wrote: [quote sheep] Quote:barley: It was a hypothetical question about Jesus  I think you are being difficult  We have to look at Scripture as a whole. It is obvious that Jesus did not imply that all christians would be doing miracles. The same problem exists when Jesus said that whatever you pray for in His Name you will receive. It does not happen, has never happened that someone get ever single thing they have requested in Jesus' Name. By a simple reading of the Bible those things are revealed by the Holy Spirit - which is why one needs to keep reading the entire Bible, not selected verses to form a theology  Again, what Jesus said has never come to pass the way it is interpreted in the signs and wonders/faith movement. Nor did it come to pass in the NT with that interpretation. I think it was a fair question - show where in the NT that others did signs and wonders other than the apostles - the 12, Paul and Stephen. It's not there. I provided you the Biblical proof. The NT does not list any signs and wonders other than through the apostles of the NT and satan. So if there are signs and wonders today, then under whose authority are they being done? The apostles are gone. Quote:barley: There are 12 apostles plus Paul. Stephen and Phillip were given the ability to do signs and wonders by the laying on of hands by the 12, as recorded in Acts. No others are mentioned that I know of. It was under the authority of the apostles that the signs and wonders were given. All gifts of the spirit were under their authority - in other words, only they could judge who was of God and who was not. There are examples of this in Acts. Jesus gave them that authority so that what was of God would be known to be truth and not tainted and corrupted by satan. They were the ones chosen for that responsibility because they knew Christ personally and witnessed His ministry [other than Paul - who was chosen by Christ as the only exception]. This is why we have the Word of God - inspired and infallible to know that what was done in NT times is our "plumb line". We no longer have the apostles to judge. What is "confirmed" as the "Holy Spirit" today is only confirmed by those in the movement, not by the christian community at large. In the NT there was no doubt that the signs and wonders done were of God. Today, we have no such confirmation. The "spirit" is not doing something "new" today. We have to see things through the whole Bible, not what we learn through the wisdom and works of men with impure motives. Another question I had asked is why there are no signs and wonders throughout Christianity other than through the charis movement today? Why is there no evidence that the signs and wonders followed believers since the first century until the 1800s when the charis movement surfaced through corrupt sources? These are credible questions. We need to look at history to reveal the truth, which confirms the written Word of God. Having been fully part of the charis/faith movement and having seen and practiced signs and wonders for several years, I am fully aware of your position. Spending immense time in God's Word and praying for discernment, reading and researching the roots of this movement, God removed the blinders and allowed me to see that this movement is not of God, but of men. |
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12-03-2009, 08:14 PM
Post: #15
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(11-06-2009 12:12 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: The topic of giftings and the ability of the believer to do these things has come up in discussion. It's an important topic because so many people have an extreme range of belief and practice. God has kept the "ball rolling" as you say. Unfortunately, the false signs and wonders get all the publicity. There is nothing in the New Testament that says signs, wonders, miracles, speaking in tongues or demonic possession has stopped. I have seen your "reasoning" of certain scriptures and it appears you are distorting the scriptures to support your doctrine. What stopped was the authorship of inspired doctrine because the Apostles died. There is no more scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit being written. It is a big stretch and a distortion to say that Mark 16:15-18 was only for the Apostles. He was actually speaking to the 11 disciples/Apostles to be, at the time when Jesus said, Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Instead of saying them and they, why didn't Jesus say YOU. Plus we have the proof of miracles today. Although you don't hear much about real miracles in America and Canada because of skepticism and unbelief. Anyway, to believe that visions and dreams promised by the Holy Spirit through Joel, began and ended on Pentecost is also a distortion, since Ananias in Acts 9:10 had a vision. But what is worse than anything is, if you don't see something continuiing in the NT, you assume God stopped confirming His Word with power. Believer do not heal, or cast out demons. Jesus Christ does. And He uses His children, not unbelievers, to do this. You don't have to believe this and after following your posts and knowing where the moderators stand on this, I don't expect you to. But God is God and the Word is the Word. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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12-03-2009, 08:32 PM
Post: #16
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-03-2009 08:14 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:(11-06-2009 12:12 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: The topic of giftings and the ability of the believer to do these things has come up in discussion. It's an important topic because so many people have an extreme range of belief and practice. I think you are confusing what I have stated. I believe there are demons and demonic oppression and possession. I believe that God heals and delivers people today. I do not believe that the gifts are in operation - in other words, God has not chosen anyone to "operate" in the gifts. That would be the distinction. If God kept "the ball rolling", there is no evidence of it  If there are people "operating" in the gifts, then why is there no historical documentation from the first century until the 1800s?Why is there no proof in the NT that "regular" believers did signs and wonders? Where are the "true" signs and wonders of today through a "calling"? Why is it that only those in the charis movement are "chosen"? I am curious, the concept of signs and wonders for only those who believe in them and therefore there are "no real miracles" in certain places who don't believe. Where does this teaching come from? |
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12-03-2009, 09:43 PM
Post: #17
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
Quote:God has kept the "ball rolling" as you say. >>> Jesus pointed that out. Matthew 7:15-24 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Which part are you finding confusing. The part of the prophesying in HIs name, or casting out demons in His name, or doing signs and wonders/miracles in His name as being works of iniquity? Not one person can claim the position of authority that was given by God to the apostles. Paul mentioned God made them last. They were the Jewish witnesses who walked with Christ, and bore witness of all He said and did. THey were specifically--as in the Scriptures that I listed concerning the signs and wonders given specifically for the apostles to Prove what they said was of God. THey followed the preaching of the Gospel. THey also wrote the epistles that became the New Testament. You are right, there is no more new revelation--it is a closed canon. No one else can duplicate what they did, and as the years went on, the miracles and signs and wonders disappeared--because it was now to be about obedience to the Word of God. No more signs and wonders to prove anything. It is all about Faith in Jesus Christ. Further, demonic possession happened long before Christ walked the earth and died. It is still a spiritual issue just as deceivers and deceptions wax worse. But it is fully by the power of Jesus Christ that a person, even one possessed, can be delivered without any circus or rebuking or whatever else people are want to do. Merely believing Christ can and does deliver that person--without all the fanfare that is so a part of "spiritual warfare" and where the focus is on the demonic instead of Jesus Christ. Demons, demon possession and oppression are obviously real. The issue is, that what the apostles did was unique to them, for a very specific and God given time and witness. Miracles happen all the time, I've seen them. It's just not a circus event. Just as God heals or allows people to go through trials. It's about His will and His glory. Ananias incidently was a Jewish believer, and when Joel was fufilled in Acts according to Peter, it said "their sons and daughters"-meaning Israels-- would dream dreams and have visions, and Ananias may have had that one specific task to do---and that was to go to Paul. There is zero record of any other event like that in his life. Speaking in tongues--as shown in that same Acts passage--shows all the nations and therefore languages that were spoken. I have a list if you would like. It was not some useless gibberish which no one could understand. It needed to be understood in order for anyone to understand the good news of Jesus Christ and be edified. That's how people come to Christ--by hearing the Word of God. Not by following after signs and wonders and false speakings that mean nothing. Quote:It is a big stretch and a distortion to say that Mark 16:15-18 was only for the Apostles. He was actually speaking to the 11 disciples/Apostles to be, at the time when Jesus said, As I stated and I will repost in the many scriptures referring to the apostles preaching the gospel and being the specific eyewitnesses of Christ and it being confirmed--according to the scriptures---by those things following after their preaching. The passage in Mark was Jesus Christ dialoguing with the apostles, and the promise of what would follow them to confirm they were in fact of God-when they preached the Gospel-they were the ones who had personally walked with Christ; the witnesses chosen by God to convey the Truth of Christ. THey spoke other languages--fulfilled. Bitten by snake--Paul and no other record, cast out demons--Peter and Paul, etc and those the apostles specfiically laid hands on for specific purposes; healed the sick--Peter, Paul, probably stephen, phillip, etc --all specifically recorded--with limited focus-- in the Scriptures to confirm who they were and Their record was true. Acts 4:29-33 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30. By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Luk 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, ..Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. ...Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Act 5:12 And bythe hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Act 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. Act 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Act 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Notice, it does not say that the believers in general were doing these signs and wonders, but a select few. Either the apostles or those they laid hands on. As far as tongues, Paul spoke more languages than any other. He spoke the Gospel so men might be saved. He also said those tongues aka languages were for unbelievers---not believers. THose who pursue tongues miss that most important fact. Further he said it would be better to speak 5 clear words that someone understand than to speak ten thousand which no one could understand. All gifts were for sharing Christ or edifying the Body. And all were to desire to do things that edified the body of Christ. Quote:Plus we have the proof of miracles today. Although you don't hear much about real miracles in America and Canada because of skepticism and unbelief. Miracles have nothing to do with someone else's skepticism or unbelief. God is at work and those who belong to Him see His answers to prayer and His being at work. You seem to miss the part about acknowledging that God does work miracles. It just isn't the same for believers as what the apostles did, because they had a specific call and purpose. Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Not one of us can make the claim of verse 20. We are built upon their foundation....we can't duplicate what they specifically were given to do. 1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. They were examples of how to live and die for Christ. Jesus said there would be no more signs for a wicked and adulterous generation---I think He meant that and I think we can look around and see it is wicked and few serve Christ. Deceptions and deceivers abound. Jesus said the sign people would have would be the truth of the sign of Jonah--meaning Christ crucified and risen from the grave. It's about Him. People who want the signs and wonders are accepting the false signs and wonders which Jesus categorised as being of iniquity--because the Truth of Jesus Christ and the Word of God is insufficient for them. THey want feelings and special experiences instead of realising what a privilege it is to walk by Faith with Jesus Christ leading the way. Quote:But what is worse than anything is, if you don't see something continuiing in the NT, you assume God stopped confirming His Word with power. That is a false accusation. If something does not continue--there is a reason and it is found in the Scriptures. For example, Paul did not continue healing people. Some were left very ill. God did no such thing--stopping confirming His Word with power. The power is In Jesus Christ--who lives in us and through us. You have made a huge leap and false assumptions and false conclusions. You assume that because He confirmed the apostles with signs and wonders--which is exactly what Jesus said they would do and the other verses confirmed that, you appear to need to see those signs and wonders in order to believe the Scriptures to all be true....That means you walk by sight--not by faith. The very person of Jesus Christ is confirmation of the Scriptures. What did Jesus specifically say: Matthew 7:18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Quote:You don't have to believe this and after following your posts and knowing where the moderators stand on this, I don't expect you to. And Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, and the Spirit of Christ indwells all believers, who subsequently gives understanding to the Word. And we walk by faith...and are kept by HIS power. Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 16:24-26 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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12-04-2009, 12:17 AM
Post: #18
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
Barley Wrote: [quote sheep]
Well, ya see, Barley - you have a problem interpreting it that way because Scripture shows it did not happen in that manner. So either Jesus lied or it was fulfilled differently than how some have interpreted it. There is NO evidence in Acts that anyone other than the 12 apostles - including Paul, and Stephen did miracles, signs and wonders, healed, and cast out demons. ……………………………………………. Quote:barley: Well sheep I don’t have a problem with the way it is plainly and simply written in John. And I do not even have to consider if Jesus lied because None of the books of the Bible contradict one another. I do have difficulty relating what you say to what is actually written in Scripture, please be patient with me. Quote sheep ”It was a hypothetical question about Jesus I think you are being difficult We have to look at Scripture as a whole. It is obvious that Jesus did not imply that all christians would be doing miracles.” Your correct He didn’t imply it He came out right and said it, remember what He said in John 14 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. Also I agree that we need to look at Scripture as a whole but that doesn’t mean, that when we don’t understand, we can change the plain meaning of what is written to try and make it fit with what we think it should say. Back to what you say. Quote sheep “The same problem exists when Jesus said that whatever you pray for in His Name you will receive. It does not happen, has never happened that someone get ever single thing they have requested in Jesus' Name.” The problem is not with Scripture but that you don’t understand what it means to pray in Jesus name. Like you said we need the whole counsel of Scripture. Let me give you an example of something like this. And I’m not pointing a finger at you or anyone else but I think it is a clear example of how mankind can go astray and change Scripture to fit their understanding of how things really work. 2 Cor 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. (NIV) Most Christians would look at this Scripture and say so what, that’s pretty plain and simple. Yet many people are being taught that Jesus isn’t who we know the Bible says he is. They believe they can be right with God without what Jesus has done for them. They believe that by their works they can be substitutes for Jesus. In other words they think they can take His place. One such Group translates the Scripture thus. "We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” NWT Sometimes when we think we know Scripture and know God and we try to live accordingly and things don’t work out as we think it should we will blame God. And maybe those who taught us doctrine. It’s ok to be broken hearted……..God will work with that. But our other response is we can become hardhearted and critical of God His Word and His people. It tends to spread and include everyone. We blame others and exonerate ourselves. God resists the proud, but……..you know the rest As you can probably tell I have some experience with this. Here is a Scripture I love 1 Cor 8:2-3 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. (NKJ) There is so much freedom given in these 2 verses. OK OK back to where we were. Remember that verse in the OT that starts "If My people who are called by MY name will humble themselves and pray…………." The first thing we will say if we humble our self before the Lord is “not my will Lord but your will be done” Just the fact that we call Him Lord….it should be a given. People fail in their prayers because they do not humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray. No, instead they pray according to their own will. Our prayer should be in accord with the will of the Father we need to be joined in will with what He desires. Far to often we are trying to tell Him what to do. Even if we get His will right we will mess up in the timing. God knows the beginning to the end and His will is best for us. None of this is what I intended to say to you Sheep wreck but I hope something I have written is of blessing to you. Barley |
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12-04-2009, 03:00 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2009 03:45 AM by heb13-13.)
Post: #19
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
Vic and Sheep,
There is no use in conversing with you on this issue, and it was a mistake to try. You will believe what you want and it will continue to support your doctrine. It is not my job or calling to convince you. I am convinced by the Word and that is all that matters. Peace in Jesus, Rick (12-04-2009 03:00 AM)heb13-13 Wrote: Vic and Sheep, Well, I will add this for the benefit of others. Vic, When Jesus was talking in Mark 16, the 11 disciples/Apostles were in His physical presence. When someone is in your physical presence you don't say "them and they", you say YOU. He was telling the 11 disciples that "they" or "them" that believe on my name will do ...... Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. You communicate to everyone that you are a stickler for the Word and yet you miss this. You also marginalize the example of Ananias by saying that Joel was only talking about Jews. Joel said that God would pour out His spirit on ALL flesh. Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh He is clearly making a distinction here. He is not talking about a specific race, but rather ALL FLESH. ALL = ALL. Joel mentioned "servants", too, so that could mean Samaritans, also. Or is that just Jewish servants? Joel did not know the full import of what he was talking about but the Holy Spirit did. And in Jesus Christ there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, male or female and God is not a respecter of persons. God responds to faith not race. Without faith it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6). It is plain and simple to me and it is just sad that you not only believe what you believe or don't believe, as the case may be, but you also propagate it to other believers. Rick (12-03-2009 09:43 PM)Vic Wrote: Vic, I don't look for miracles or signs. My eyes are on Jesus. I walk by faith and believe everything that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me in the Scriptures and I even believe things in the Scriptures I don't understand. Simply because it is God's Word. I am running after Jesus Christ not signs and wonders. You misunderstand me. This conversation will go no where so I will be the first to pull out of it and look for something else. I just think it will be fruitless. You interpret some of these scriptures in a "funny" way and so we are basically "apples" and "oranges". Rick Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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12-04-2009, 11:17 AM
Post: #20
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-04-2009 03:00 AM)heb13-13 Wrote: Vic and Sheep, Well Rick, let me say if my beliefs are off base to the Scriptures I will be the first to adjust them. You interpret things from a charismatic mind set---and yes you do, before you protest. That is why when you first becamse a Christian and were stationed in San Diego you went to Calvary Chapel every chance you got. It was the hotbed for signs and wonders and charismatic beliefs. Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee...so, you can say you don't but you have walked in agreement with it. As far as the Joel prophecy, God said He would pour His Spirit out on all flesh. Agreed. But not everyone dreamed dreams and had visions. Not everyone has ever been given all the same tasks nor the same gifts. All gifts were for the purpose and at the will of the Father. You know that some were apostles, some were teachers etc---not all were apostles not all teachers etc....not all have the same giftings to do God's will. Acts 2:16-22 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: God made a distinction for the dreams and visions as going on "your sons and your daughters' and on 'his servants. Read it carefully and then look at these verses. Who was being spoken specifically to? Who were the apostles sent to FIRST? And who was Jesus sent to FIRST? And who did the Spirit come on to FIRST? Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Now look at these verses: Acts 1:2-9 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6. When they[meaning the apostles] therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7. And he said unto them,[who? the apostles] It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Who is being discussed---the apostles. Who were specifically chosen as the eyewitnesses---the apostles. You make a thing about Jesus' choice of words when He spoke to the eleven apostles---but you forget that Paul was called after that to be an apostle, and the ones that the apostles --by the leading of the Holy Spirit--added to the apostles and those specially commissioned by them--specifically Stephen, Phillip and five others listed. Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Can you be an apostle Rick? Do the things they did? Can anyone today be an apostle? Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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