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***Vic*** · 12-08-2009, 07:59 PM

Rick, it's time to deal with your false accusations, putting words and beliefs in our mouths that aren't ours, twisting what we say to change what we mean, being double minded and contradictory and your total disrespect towards us that is waxing worse from thread to thread.

heb13-13 post #24

Quote:Joel says the Spirit shall be poured out upon all flesh, not on Jews only but upon Gentiles (is my contention per the Word of God). In Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, Rom. 10:11, 12.

As I stated clearly---the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh-to those who believe Jesus Christ. But the Joel verses also speak directly to Israel concerning their "sons and daughters." You seem incapable of seeing more than what you want it to say. It says "all flesh"-meaning all mankind-- and then also says "your" sons and daughters which in the prior verse was speaking to Israel. How can someone so hepped up on thinking they are here to teach us, be so unable to understand such a simple concept? We have written about these issues in many threads--we get it. But apparently you don't.

You cannot seem to comprehend that we get that the Holy Spirit is in every believer and yet it is something stated time and again by myself and others on this forum and in my writings. As far as Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit in front of Peter--it was to confirm the vision of the sheet about the clean and unclean and that all -Gentiles and Jews--who come to Christ will be filled with the Holy Spirit---by God's doing. It never was about the apostles abilities but God working through them to confirm they belonged to Him and were His witnesses. Paul wrote:

2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Your attempt to make it appear we worship them---is a lie and false accusation which you need to deal with. It seems a pattern when people can't answer direct questions or abide the Scriptures or actually prove what they say--they have to sink to false accusations and attacks.

Get over yourself Rick. You are neither a teacher/evangelist/apostle/ or pastor to us. You came on here with the attitude of spamming your beliefs and you were given much more lattitude than most, in order to see who you really were. You speak of the need for humbleness and willingness to change our beliefs---and yet you would never consider you might be wrong, and change yours would you?. Your arrogance is seeping through in your personal attacks. Think about it.

Every single person that belongs to Jesus Christ receives the Holy Spirit. Not by a ritual, not by laying on of hands, not by having to be in the company of someone else, but in faith believing who Jesus Christ is. The evidence of that faith is NOT speaking in tongues. That was a limited and very specific happening. In fact, even when Peter and the apostles were speaking to the 3000 plus, they were told to repent and:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What? The gift of the Holy Ghost and no mention of tongues? Why? what was wrong with Peter?

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30. Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Quote:I do not believe that miracles working in someone's life validates them as a true Believer. Jesus said, "These things will follow them that believe", He did not say, "These things will confirm and validate my children".

With all this said, there is no substitute for fruit. But, this is still not an argument for cutting out portions of God’s Word.

You contradict your own statements. Either those things in Mark 16--which you have stated apply to all believers---are to be exhibited by all believers--or you are wrong, and as the Scriptures prove---the apostles' witness was confirmed by these very things. Now we have proven that the Scriptures show the apostles did those things and more, yet there is no record in the Sciptures of others doing that list. So let me ask a rhetorical question. If you say it's in the Scriptures that all believers will have those signs and wonders follow them--and you admit to not having all those signs and wonders following you--you don't have that gifting---what Scripture is it that says there's an out clause for that list? Because there isn't one. The apostles could take the 'giftings' list from Corinthians and have it applied to them---because they were given great power and works to confirm their witness of Christ. However, the giftings of the Holy Spirit to do God's will, and necessity of signs and wonders to confirm believers is not mentioned after them. Yes---the Corinthians were all hepped up and seeking after tongues and prophesy and sign gifts --and Paul said they were carnal-living for the flesh because they were doing it for the experience and the feelings---instead of understanding what it meant to live for Jesus Christ. And simply desire to serve Him. And to do things to edify others--as God led. You keep mixing up the promised gift of the Holy Spirit to all who believe, and the 'giftings' given by the Holy Spirit for the edification of others as He wills. Those spiritual gifts are used by Him through us for the edification of the Body.

Romans 8:9-17 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

***Vic*** · 12-08-2009, 08:04 PM

heb13-13 Post # 26

Quote: That does not stop me from praying for people and I don't discouraged and say God's Word is not true if someone does not get healed.

Is Paul just speaking to Apostles here? Are these Elders, Apostles only. If yes, how do you know. Tell us.

Where in all of Scripture is there even a suggestion that prayer was something limited to the apostles? Where in all that we have written have we even come close to suggesting such foolishness. There again Rick, another false accusation in order to try to validate your position which is no position to be in. I have lost track the times I have stated God is a God of miracles and I have seen answered prayer many many many times. And I have seen miraculous things happen, because of Him. You are mixing concepts and activities and overturning Scriptures in order to be 'right'. Guess what? You are wrong, --in your accusations and the messed up ideas you are conveying here.

Every believer is called to pray without ceasing; to pray for others: to bear each other's burdens, to pray. Have I ever said that all people should be healed when prayed for? No. God heals who He chooses and allows sickness as a trial and way for growth. You make it appear that we are twisting Scriptures on these things.

You sir, are doing that quite well on your own.

Quote:I would not share any of my other experiences with you because you prove time and again in this forum that you trample on pearls.

So, let's just stick to what the Word says. You seem to keep reasoning away the Scriptures that are presented to you.

Who do you think you are Rick? In all my years of dealing with people, from deceived, satanists, heretics, to hate filled 'believers' I have never presumed to make a statement like that to anyone. Even proven false prophets are called false prophets. But I would never presume to think that what I have to say is so important that it equates to pearls. Nor would I ever think that as God led me to respond to someone --would I ever think of them in terms that it would be trampled by swine --- because I believe, even if what I say is fully rejected and retaliated against, I believe that God may someday use what is said to help someone. They are never fully lost from my perspective---until God takes them. Your statement is sooo off base, so inappropriate and so filled with arrogant ego driven thinking, that comes across as contempt for us, that I have to wonder, do you know Jesus Christ of the Bible?

One of the things in the forum rules is to not attack the admins--you can discuss, disagree, whatever. But you are waxing worse in attacking and making all manner of false accusation. We belong to Jesus Christ and your implication is that what you have to offer is well above what we can comprehend or understand and that your wisdom and understanding is impeccable and to be believed and accepted no matter what, and we simply aren't worthy to hear it. Guess what? It's not.

You want to stick to the Word Rick? That would be refreshing versus your twisting of it and our words to try and make a point. The problem is, you don't want to believe all the Scriptures. Oh you say you do....but you don't. You are so busy sending, you can't receive what we actually are saying.

Quote:Why is the pronoun of "your" in this case not important to you Rick? Before, you said that when Jesus was talking He didnt say YOU when He was speaking to the eleven apostles--he said "they"....but now you ignore the distinction given by God in that prophesy and all the verses which reference the apostles being the eyeswitnesses and having their words confirmed with signs and wonders following that preaching of Christ.

Rick
I have no idea what you are talking about here. 1 Cor 12, again. "every man".
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Holy Spirit gives gifts for the edification of others---according to His purpose and His will. " as he will". Some may be an example of living their faith, others may be given great faith---but it is for the edification of others. It isn't about the gifts of the Holy Spirit that's the focus---it's about living for Christ knowing that His will be done because of Him living through us.

You cannot seem to comprehend that the gift of the Holy Spirit is separate and distinct from what the Holy Spirit gives someone to do His will. And quite frankly, a small child can have His wisdom, and be prompted to speak things that are profound and totally Scripture. It's as HE WILLS. The apostles did signs and wonders and miracles---as HE WILLED.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

***Vic*** · 12-08-2009, 08:31 PM

heb13-13 Post #29

Quote:It does not mean that I am calling you SWINE, it is a figure of speech that means you will not appreciate what I say. You know very well that this is a figure of speech with an underlying and well known meaning. You should be insulted that I don't trust you enough to share some things with you.

And the underlying meaning is that we are so out of touch spiritually that we will turn and 'rend' you like the swine we are. We aren't worthy to hear you Rick. That's ok--we can live with it. Your contempt for us has been coming through in many posts. Your denial of intent is like the boy who threw the stone and hid his hand. The evidence is all before us.

Snopes of God's word Rick? Snopes doesn't have all the answers. God's Word does and He teaches us through it.

You won't share experiences because you think we don't see God's answered prayers and interventions and incredible things that He has done in our own lives. That's because you want to say what our beliefs are--instead of hearing what our beliefs are. It's more convenient for you to omit the things we have declared.

Quote:your beliefs/lack of beliefs and subsequent "trampling".

The presumptuous attack....holds little finesse. You think we don't believe God---that's just one more false accusation.

Quote:The Holy Spirit and the Apostles were very good at pointing men to Christ. One God, one Lord and one Spirit that gives gifts liberally to every man as He wills, is what the scripture says.

The Holy Spirit worked through the apostles, giving them the words to speak to declare the Gospel. No one can come to Christ unless drawn by God and convicted by the Holy Spirit. You say we don't get it--but you appear to be confused as to who did the things the apostles did--and who wrote the epistles----it wasn't by the opinions or ideas of the apostles. It was by direct revelation of God. God did the miracles through them and the signs and wonders, and gave them other languages to reach all the people.

Your problem, Rick, is that you cannot accept that maybe, just maybe, you wont get all the giftings --doing the signs and wonder and healing etc that the apostles did, so you make this straw man and build false accusations, and put words and beliefs in our mouths which we never stated--or believe. You can't accept that if the Holy Spirit gives gifts to each---as HE WILLS---that He doesn't will that all do the same things the apostles did. You want to do the things they did--except you refuse to recognise the Scriptures showing their God chosen role in the scheme of things. They followed Christ crucified and proclaimed Him---and the other things were for His honor and His glory.

Quote:I imagine you being in the early Church making idols out of the Apostles just like people are making idols out of "special" "superstar" Christians, today.

You say that about the God chosen and proven apostles and follow so called apostles today. Hmmm....double minded perhaps? Another unwarranted false accusation. Let's see what God thinks of the role He gave the apostles.

John 17:6-20 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Now to be clear, Jesus is praying for the apostles, and then all who follow Him. And He specifically prays for those who come to Christ through their word---which later became the epistles and letters and gospels. Their confirmed witness through signs and wonders and miracles--just as Jesus has said.

Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Ephesians 2:20-22 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

How did the apostles view themselves and want to be viewed:

1 Corinthians 3:7-11 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Quote:You guys don't realize it, but you rail at how Christianity today is making things man-centered (and rightly so) and yet, your teachings are making Christianity in the New Testament man-centered.

And that is precisely why the Scriptures via the Holy Spirit teaches that "in My Name will they do this and that", and "one God, one Lord and one Spirit, gives liberally to every man as He wills". The Scriptures point to the God as the gift giver and not to the Apostles.

Did God stop? No, not according to the Scriptures and experiences around the world through the centuries. But according to you these things stopped when the Apostles died and when whoever the last men and women whom they laid hands on died. You are blind and don't see how you have made Christianity in the NT man-centered by these beliefs. Dependent on "special" men (Apostles and whoever they laid hands on". and not God.

False accusations again Rick. You are presumptous and filled with your own wisdom, because if you were being directed by the Holy Spirit--you wouldn't be making these false accusations and leaps to things we don't believe nor have we said.

You appear to show contempt for what God did in using the apostles. And you seem incapable of receiving the statements concerning the God we serve and all He does and has done. You rail against the charismatic movement and try to distance yourself from it---yet you hold the exact same beliefs. Don't tell me they aren't the same, just because you have chosen different names to follow or rejected particular leaders or fellowships. You merely have your own--and the beliefs are the same--so...why be ashamed of what clearly are beliefs from your roots? Why be embarrassed and say their beliefs are garbage but yours are good--even though they are the same doctrines? And btw, since you have been in agreement with rancherforchrist aka Chris Evans, I don't see you specifically disassociating with him...surely you have seen the beginnings of the expose on him....

Quote:There is a difference between false teachers and deceived ones. There are many deceived ones among the most devoted teachers today. They do not recognize that an army of teaching spirits have come forth to deceive the people of God. Especially to those in the "spiritual" section of the church who are enamored with the supernatural realm from where the deceiving spirits whisper their lies to all that are "spiritual". i.e. open to spiritual things. The teaching spirits with "doctrines" will go to great lengths to deceive those who are in positions to transmit "doctrine" and they will seek to mingle their "teachings" with truth, with the end result that they are accepted.

What junk. 'those in the spiritual section" Rick. That's like the garbage of the "spirit filled bible". As if all others do not have the Holy Spirit. All other Christians that is.

Quote:Every believer must test every teacher today for themselves by the Word of God and the attitude of these teachers to the atoning Cross of Christ and other fundamental truths of the gospel and not be misled into testing "teaching" by the character of the teacher

Let's get this straight about what you are saying. People can be deceivd while conveying the truth because they don't recognise that deceiving spirits are out there so they are conveying deception and calling it truth. Meanwhile the little guys--the non leadership/teaching/apostles/pastors...the little people, must test what teachers say to the Word of God, and look at their teachers attitude about the atoning cross of Christ and other unnamed fundamental truths of the gospel--and not be "misled into testing "teaching" by the character of the teacher"...

Yet in another post you said that its about the fruit...

Quote:we can see from this that signs and wonders vs fruit is not important to God. Fruit is. He does not say by signs and wonders you shall know them. He says, by their fruits you shall know whether they are false or not.

We know from John 15, why fruit is important. It proves that we are abiding in Him which means we know Him. You cannot produce this kind of fruit apart from Him.

The fruit is more than just one thing. There is the fruit of abiding in Christ and obedience to His Word and presenting Scriptural truths accurately; and there is the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit: and the mark of teacher--someone who really is an elder to the people--as God allows---is what?---specific character traits.

John 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Romans 6:19-23 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7:4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 5:19-26 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25.If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Ephesians 5:8-10 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

1 Timothy 3:1-10 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3. Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4. One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6. Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Titus 1:5-11 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6. If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8. But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9. Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Does 'character' matter to God? I think so. Is it something we are to check into? God appears to have said yes.

Quote:Deception has to do with the mind and it means a wrong thought admitted to the mind under the deception that it is truth. Deception is based on ignorance and not moral character. Therefore, a "true" and "faithful" Christian is liable to be deceived by the devil simply because of his ignorance. Because of this we all need to recognize that we can be deceived and we must remain teachable and humble.

You would do well to heed your last statement. Deception is based on not using or abiding or knowing the Word well enough.

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Ephesians 6:16-18 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Everyone can be deceived. As I have stated in several articles, Jesus warned the apostles that they too could be deceived.

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:21-23 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.[color]

[color=#1E90FF]We need to be on guard for deceptions, by dependence on the Holy Spirit, and studying the Word. He will show us when something is not sound, and teach us scripturally and factually why.

Quote: But none of the false signs and wonders and they are many or the false prophets and apostles and they are many, too, are going to stop the power of God today in the world.

You are mixing apples and oranges. God at work is not restricted by false anything. He is at work period. Every time someone comes to Christ, or a prayer is answered or events take place with prayed for results for God's will to be done...He is at work. With or without us. You make it sound like unless there are signs and wonders "proving" God is at work---then someone must believe He isn't. That isn't how we are to think. We are to walk by faith not by sight. Those who need signs and wonders to validate God at work--have missed that important foundational truth.

Emotional experiences can be deceptions in themselves--but you don't get that.

Quote:You won't be convinced by experiences though. This is not an intellectual pursuit but spiritual warfare. In some ways you have made the Word so technical that you have complicated it and explained away very simple things.

The Word a technical manual....hmm...what does God say about His Word and how we are to use it and view it?

Psalms 119:8-16 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly. 9. BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. 10. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. 11. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 12. Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes. 13. With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth. 14. I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches. 15. I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways. 16. I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psalms 119:101-105 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 102. I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103. How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104. Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105. NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Romans 10:17-18 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Hebrews 2:1-4 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Quote:You ask people today whether they have cleared out hospitals full of sick people, yet you know full well that none of the Apostles went around healing everyone that was sick. None of them had a "healing" ministry to speak of where they set up appointments to heal all the lepers in the leper colony. You know this and yet you sneeringly ask people if they are emptying out hospitals knowing that the Apostles did not do this. Interesting, that the Spirit of God did not lead the Apostles to do this. And, He does not lead people to do this today. He did not lead the Apostles to have big healing conventions and I don't believe He does this today, where the emphasis primarily is on physical healing.

Umm..Rick....they didn't have hospitals back then. Do you suppose that if they did, Jesus and the apostles would have avoided them?

Isn't one of the signs that followed the apostles--healing the sick-- from the Mark 16 verses you believe apply to all believers?

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

But let's look to the Scriptures to see what the apostles did with the sick.

Acts 3:2-8 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; 3. Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. 4. And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. 5. And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. 6. Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8. And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. ...Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. ...Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. 13. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. 14. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) 15. Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. 16. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 19:10-12 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. 11. And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12. So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Acts 9:32-35 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. 33. And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy. 34. And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately. 35. And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.

Acts 9:40-43 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. 41. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. 42. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

Acts 28:8-9 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. 9. So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

Please take the time to notice---they proclaimed Christ, and gave the glory to Him and many came to Christ because of these things.

Nobody is doing any sneering except you Rick. Another false accusation. You appear to put onto others what you feel or think.

Quote:God's healing power is not for show, but they want to make a big production of it.

That is precisely what we have been saying and you cannot fathom as coming from us. It is not for show or a circus. God is at work.

Quote:The thought that our God will protect His children from being deceived if they are true and faithful is in itself a deception. God does not make up for our ignorance when He has provided knowledge for us to keep us from being deceived.

Being faithful means being obedient to Him and resting in Him. It means studying to show yourself approved and applying the Scriptures as our standard--to what we think, believe and do. God does protect His children---and we are to use the Word as the Sword of the Spirit.

Quote:I have been online now far too long and must retire for the night but one last word.

Yes you have been online far too long and have been allowed to spew and rant and falsely accuse. And you don't stop. So just like an impudent child who cries listen to me and do what I say, you need a time out. You have been autobanned by the forum spam protection since yesterday. But I am going to give you a time out to think about what you have said, how you have said it and what has been said to you. I am banning you for a temporary specified time. Please do not spend that time emailing me or the other admins. You need to step back and consider how you are coming across. You need to think about what is actually being said versus you falsely accusing and putting words and beliefs in our mouths that we have not said. You also need to consider that YOU just might need to change some of your thinking.

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 12-08-2009 08:41 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(12-08-2009 09:11 AM)Barley Wrote: Barley quote
Your correct He didn’t imply it He came out right and said it, remember what He said in John 14 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.
…………………………….
Sheep quote
So why aren't you? Why have you not fed 5000 with a few loaves of bread and fishes? Why have you not raised the dead? Why are there not 100s of people healed that you have laid hands on? When is the last time you stilled a storm? The least you could have done was averted the hurricanes, tornadoes, and tsunamis that took so many lives and ruined so many people's homes and cities in the last few years. Shame on you!
……………………….
I never thought of a sheep being angry before but I guess you are.
Who are you angry at ? Yourself or God?
You got a personal grudge with God leave me out of it, take it to Him, He can heal a wounded Sheep.

Pretty funny stuff Biggrin

It's typical to throw up a smokescreen and make it about me 6902

I was asking legit questions, but I see that you have no answer - why am I not surprised Th_ththink

Quote:……………………….
Quote:barley:
The problem is not with Scripture but that you don’t understand what it means to pray in Jesus name.

People fail in their prayers because they do not humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray.
………………………
Quote Sheep

As you seem to be a fan of taking Scripture literally, do know of anyone that has received all they have asked in Jesus' Name?

How do you know you are praying the will of God in order to get everything you ask for?

I am not familiar with the Scripture that states: "humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray" - could you provide a reference for that? thanx!

Quote:……………………………….
barley:
Question 1…………..Yes many people
#2…………You question would make sense if you said how do you know the will of God so that you may pray accordingly.
# 3 the Scripture is the Bible …………odd that you don’t know any verses in particular about this, but I’ll try and help.

1) "Yes, many people" what, Barley? Where are the 100s healed? the empty hospitals? the stilled storms? the thousands fed with a few loaves? the raised dead?

2) Another question you can't answer .... Are you telling me that you always know what God's will is before you pray?

3) Your "references" did not answer the question. None of the Scriptures you provided show us to humble ourselves and ask that the Holy Spirit to show us what to pray. What you did show is the Holy Spirit prays without our help, in spite of us. He doesn't need to show us what to pray - He/Jesus prays and intercedes for us.

KJV
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Quote:barley:

Even if we get His will right we will mess up in the timing.
…………………………..
Quote sheep

So even if we pray according to His will, then it really doesn't matter because we will mess it up anyway? Wow - it's a wonder that God is incapable of doing anything in our lives unless we pray right and at the right time

…………………………………………………..

Yah we will mess it up when we walk in our pride and arrogance, thinking we have the smarts to simply read the Bible and then tell God what to do. If we don’t Have His Spirit living within us and listen to what He says then we are simply fools thinking we are wise.

It appears that you are the one who is promoting that you have the smarts to read the Bible and tell God what to do. If you mess up the timing, then you don't know His will, do you? We don't "listen" to the Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads and guides us by the will, power, and grace of God, day by day, step by step - without saying a word. We don't need the "spirit" to tell us what color of socks we need to put on in the morning Swoon

Barley - this topic is now closed to you. We are all overly familiar with the charismatic "flavor" that you are promoting - we have heard enough 7045

~~Barley~~ · 12-08-2009, 10:16 PM

(12-08-2009 08:38 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(12-08-2009 09:11 AM)Barley Wrote: Barley quote
Your correct He didn’t imply it He came out right and said it, remember what He said in John 14 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.
…………………………….
Sheep quote
So why aren't you? Why have you not fed 5000 with a few loaves of bread and fishes? Why have you not raised the dead? Why are there not 100s of people healed that you have laid hands on? When is the last time you stilled a storm? The least you could have done was averted the hurricanes, tornadoes, and tsunamis that took so many lives and ruined so many people's homes and cities in the last few years. Shame on you!
……………………….
I never thought of a sheep being angry before but I guess you are.
Who are you angry at ? Yourself or God?
You got a personal grudge with God leave me out of it, take it to Him, He can heal a wounded Sheep.

Pretty funny stuff It's typical to throw up a smokescreen and make it about me I was asking legit questions, but I see that you have no answer - why am I not surprised

Quote:……………………….
Quote:barley:
The problem is not with Scripture but that you don’t understand what it means to pray in Jesus name.

People fail in their prayers because they do not humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray.
………………………
Quote Sheep

As you seem to be a fan of taking Scripture literally, do know of anyone that has received all they have asked in Jesus' Name?

How do you know you are praying the will of God in order to get everything you ask for?

I am not familiar with the Scripture that states: "humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray" - could you provide a reference for that? thanx!

Quote:……………………………….
barley:
Question 1…………..Yes many people
#2…………You question would make sense if you said how do you know the will of God so that you may pray accordingly.
# 3 the Scripture is the Bible …………odd that you don’t know any verses in particular about this, but I’ll try and help.

1) "Yes, many people" what, Barley? Where are the 100s healed? the empty hospitals? the stilled storms? the thousands fed with a few loaves? the raised dead?

2) Another question you can't answer .... Are you telling me that you always know what God's will is before you pray?

3) Your "references" did not answer the question. None of the Scriptures you provided show us to humble ourselves and ask that the Holy Spirit to show us what to pray. What you did show is the Holy Spirit prays without our help, in spite of us. He doesn't need to show us what to pray - He/Jesus prays and intercedes for us.

KJV
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Quote:barley:

Even if we get His will right we will mess up in the timing.
…………………………..
Quote sheep

So even if we pray according to His will, then it really doesn't matter because we will mess it up anyway? Wow - it's a wonder that God is incapable of doing anything in our lives unless we pray right and at the right time

…………………………………………………..

Yah we will mess it up when we walk in our pride and arrogance, thinking we have the smarts to simply read the Bible and then tell God what to do. If we don’t Have His Spirit living within us and listen to what He says then we are simply fools thinking we are wise.

It appears that you are the one who is promoting that you have the smarts to read the Bible and tell God what to do. If you mess up the timing, then you don't know His will, do you? We don't "listen" to the Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads and guides us by the will, power, and grace of God, day by day, step by step - without saying a word. We don't need the "spirit" to tell us what color of socks we need to put on in the morning

Barley - this topic is now closed to you. We are all overly familiar with the charismatic "flavor" that you are promoting - we have heard enough

OK Ms administrator topic closed.
Thank you for alowing my to quote Scripture that I thought was pertinent.
May the Lord Heal you woundedness.

Barley

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 12-09-2009 02:29 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(12-08-2009 10:16 PM)Barley Wrote: OK Ms administrator topic closed.
Thank you for alowing my to quote Scripture that I thought was pertinent.
May the Lord Heal you woundedness.

Barley

Firmness in exposing deception and false teachings is not "woundedness". We are commanded to expose evil.

Your Scriptures were not pertinent as they described the spirit of man, or only mentioned praying, not proof that we are to *ask the Holy Spirit* to show us how to pray.

Jesus already taught us how to pray.

Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Paul showed us how to pray:

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Phi 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
Phi 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Phi 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

deafguy55 · 10-19-2011, 12:17 AM

All I know about the simple way to do what we need to be healed! see James 5: 13-18 the important subject on the power of prayer! that all believers have faith in prayer! That is all we do because we come to the throne of grace in time what we need! Hebrews 4:14-16 smile !

***Vic*** · 10-19-2011, 10:25 AM

(10-19-2011 12:17 AM)deafguy55 Wrote: All I know about the simple way to do what we need to be healed! see James 5: 13-18 the important subject on the power of prayer! that all believers have faith in prayer! That is all we do because we come to the throne of grace in time what we need! Hebrews 4:14-16 smile !

Good point. And the thing is God didn't promise we wouldn't have sickness or trials. He promised to never leave or forsake us and keep us through everything.

deafguy55 · 10-20-2011, 01:07 PM

(10-19-2011 10:25 AM)Vic Wrote:
(10-19-2011 12:17 AM)deafguy55 Wrote: All I know about the simple way to do what we need to be healed! see James 5: 13-18 the important subject on the power of prayer! that all believers have faith in prayer! That is all we do because we come to the throne of grace in time what we need! Hebrews 4:14-16 smile !

Good point. And the thing is God didn't promise we wouldn't have sickness or trials. He promised to never leave or forsake us and keep us through everything.

Vic Yes I agree with you ! with your last comment ! we are told we put our cares upon Him for He take care of you all of it! smile !

**Lois** · (This post was last modified: 01-10-2012 11:45 AM by Vic.)

[Vic posting in for Lois due to technical issues]

This thread is in need of revival but not in the charismatic sense.

Vic said,

Quote::
Further, demonic possession happened long before Christ walked the earth and died.
It is still a spiritual issue just as deceivers and deceptions wax worse. But it is fully by the power of Jesus Christ that a person, even one possessed, can be delivered without any circus or rebuking or whatever else people are want to do.
Merely believing Christ can and does deliver that person--without all the fanfare that is so a part of "spiritual warfare" and where the focus is on the demonic instead of Jesus Christ.

I can bear witness to the truth of this. I was delivered by the power of Jesus Christ all alone in my bed at about 2a.m.

Whether I was possessed or oppressed, I do not know. As I laid in bed pouring my heart out to God, seeking the truth about the
charismatic beliefs that I had had for more than 30 years, God delivered me from this demonic thing that I had been tricked into believing was the Holy Spirit.

I was alone. No one laid hands on me. No one else prayed for me. It was hard. It was probably one of the hardest things I have ever had to go through in my life.

As sickening as this may sound, I was heartbroken to let this lying spirit go. Out of my ignorance I had let this demonic spirit
become my friend and my comfort.

I didn't know the word of God. I just blindly trusted that it was the Holy Spirit because of the false feeling of comfort. I did not "try the spirits" as the bible instructs us to do.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I think many of us are tricked by it because we only associate bad feelings to the demonic. We don't fully understand that the devil can and does use good feelings to trick us into submitting to him.

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

People are just not getting this > And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

People are flocking to these churches to feel the presence of the Lord. What they get is the presence of this lying/seducing spirit that takes advantage of us seeking to "feel the presence" of God.

They are searching for God in all the wrong places and in all the wrong ways.

If this lying, seducing spirit felt evil or wicked, you would run from it, but it transforms its self into an angel of light. It makes you feel calm, warm and good so you will submit yourself to it and allow it dominion over you. It can not force itself on you. You have to submit/surrender and allow it.

God opened my eyes and let me see that I had chosen this. That I allowed this...that I had submitted myself to this thing. I submitted to the lie but God showed me the truth.

Once God showed me the truth about this lying spirit...I submitted to God's truth and the lie had to go. God delivered me.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I believe that verse is true for all of us, ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I was on a mission to find out the truth...even if it was painful and hard to take. I just wanted God.

I just wanted truth no matter the cost to me, or my precious feelings.

I didn't care if I ever felt what they say is "his presence" ever again.

I just wanted Him, Jesus, God Almighty...and he heard me.
I didn't have to send money in for a special anointed prayer clothe or go up during an alter call. He heard me, little old me, crying out to Him in my bed at 2 am.

He delivered me.

I felt it leave me. I even got a sharp pain in my abdomen as it left... maybe it was mad and wanted to hurt me because I didn't want it any more but God wouldn't let it. I can only speculate.
It did try to attach itself to me again for probably a week...but I refused it. I would say No, I only want God, Not you and your false feelings.

What is truly amazing to me is that I had no fear. I have spent my life in fear and since God delivered me, I have had no fear what so ever.
Before God delivered me from this thing I could not speak about the demonic or read anything about evil spirits without feeling terrified.
I have had no fear since the true Holy Spirit entered my life. The false holy spirit uses fear to keep us in line.

I will spend the rest of my life speaking against this lying spirit masquerading as the Holy Spirit.It is most prevalent in the charismatic church.

There are so many people that are under the strong delusion of this false doctrine and this false spirit. It is heartbreaking to me.
I pray that God's will be done with my testimony.

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

This is that night that cometh. We are living in that night that cometh that NO MAN CAN WORK,period.
Jesus being here in the flesh was that day in which that work of miracles, signs and wonders were being done.

Jesus Himself while he was on earth in the flesh gave the apostles the authority to do miracles, signs and wonders as a witness to
who Jesus Christ was, to fulfill the prophecies that had been written about Him.

All the prophecies concerning Jesus Christ have already been fulfilled now...except His returning...So what purpose would those
supposed miracles,signs and wonders be for today?

To trick you.I know that can be very hard to hear.

Jesus said,
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign
and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.

Because of our sinful nature we still seek after a sign and we are lead into what amounts to spiritual adultery,

When we look to the Lord and seek His kingdom and His righteousness, signs will surely follow, but it is not the signs that we seek.
We seek miracles on a grand scale, like they had in the days of Jesus,and not the meek fruit signs of peace,joy,longsuffering..No,
those signs are not good enough for the wicked and adulterous,we need bigger and better ones.

There were lying signs and wonders before Jesus so it is safe to say there would be lying signs and wonders during and after Jesus

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

It says right there God allows this to test you. Will you choose a lie over Him..Will you choose a feeling over Him?

It is your choice to settle for the lie,or seek His truth. You have the freewill to choose it, or Him and God will allow whatever choice you make.

Don't be ignorant of the truth like I was. His word is the truth. Know the truth,seek it and choose wisely.

Our God is so good that he will deliver us from our unwise choices but we have to want to be delivered from them first.

The truth can be so hard and so painful to face, it hurts. God's word is Truth.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I have felt that. It is not a warm fuzzy feeling. I felt torn asunder by the truth. But praise God!I wasn't alone.

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.