The cross of Christ vs the "cross"

[stuart]

There is a small little church by me that is KJB only , but there is a cross on top of the church. I aproached the pastor about Rev. 9:20 and how the wood cross is made by human hands and was our Saviour's torture device and therefore it is not honouring the Father by hoisting this idol up on the church. I also pointed this out to a small baptist church and she just said that is just a symbol, had a huge wood cross at front of church. I know when Jesus refers to the cross it is the burden we bare.
How are any putting our Saviour's torture device everywhere honouring the Son. . Think of this analogy say You're a dad and your son was tortured in a manner , woould you go around waiving his torture device around . It makes me cry , as I am born again and so want to have a water baptism. I am weary of getting baptised under a wooden cross. I know our Father and Jesus are above all these , but simply saying they are idols. :( . Thank you brothers and sisters for this privledge of writing you

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

This is what god thinks of a tree Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

[sheep wrecked]

(11-14-2009 01:03 AM)stuart Wrote:  There is a small little church by me that is KJB only , but there is a cross on top of the church. I aproached the pastor about Rev. 9:20 and how the wood cross is made by human hands and was our Saviour's torture device and therefore it is not honouring the Father by hoisting this idol up on the church. I also pointed this out to a small baptist church and she just said that is just a symbol, had a huge wood cross at front of church. I know when Jesus refers to the cross it is the burden we bare.
How are any putting our Saviour's torture device everywhere honouring the Son. . Think of this analogy say You're a dad and your son was tortured in a manner , woould you go around waiving his torture device around . It makes me cry , as I am born again and so want to have a water baptism. I am weary of getting baptised under a wooden cross. I know our Father and Jesus are above all these , but simply saying they are idols. :( . Thank you brothers and sisters for this privledge of writing you

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

This is what god thinks of a tree Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

stuart,

to the forum!

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http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=17

I think that people use symbols to declare what they believe. I don't think that Christians are trying to dishonor Christ by putting up a cross, but rather indicating that they follow Christ.

I would agree that the cross was a torturous execution tool, but Jesus did die on it - He was tortured for our sins. It is by death on the cross and Jesus' shed blood, that we have been forgiven. It is what God chose for Jesus to die upon. Paul said that he gloried in the cross of Christ.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Since the beginning of time people have used symbols to reflect nationality [hence flags and banners], country affiliation, religious status, sports teams, schools, cars, and 1000s of other things. God gave Israel symbols to represent the tribes and even directed that a specific gemstone be used to designate each tribe. These were placed in the breastplate that the High Priest wore. The Bible is full of symbolism - it is how we relate to others in the world around us.

Most Christians are not worshiping the cross, they are honoring Christ who died for their sins.

[stuart]

Thank you for replying. I will point all who have the ears to listen to this brother's teaching on the matter aswell.

This subject has nothing ,but increased my faith because for the longest time I wondered why if this object was to be adored the roman papists desplayed them everywhere. The Holy Spirit by he grace of our Saviour Lord Jesus Chirst has broght me to the knowledge of this matter. For years when I prayed and thought of Jesus Christ I pictured him on the cross with long hair. When I found out about the deceiver matreya it made me think more on the subject of why this false image was seared on my mind of Jesus on the cross. I struggled a bit getting these images away from me and only by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ he has removed them as they are false images. Our Saviour died ONE time on the tree , we should not dwell upon his torture device as satan has great plans for the hippy false jesus and the cross..
Our Saviour is sitting up in heaven on the right hand of God and always will be . As for Paul , I am shore he dwelled and marvelled at the burden Jesus Christ did when he finalalized satan's demise.
I ask you all if this object or symbol is to be adored why then so the papists and just about every other heathan put these on. Who knows what type of demons are attached/attracted to these objects as the symbol of the cross goes back to ancient babylon
thank you for your ears and may God bless you as He has me

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi Stuart welcome to the forum.
As you may have seen I have removed the link you just posted.Please read the forum rules where you will find that new members are not allowed to post links til they reach a certain number of posts.
thanks

[sheep wrecked]

(11-14-2009 03:04 PM)stuart Wrote:  Thank you for replying. I will point all who have the ears to listen to this brother's teaching on the matter aswell.

This subject has nothing ,but increased my faith because for the longest time I wondered why if this object was to be adored the roman papists desplayed them everywhere. The Holy Spirit by he grace of our Saviour Lord Jesus Chirst has broght me to the knowledge of this matter. For years when I prayed and thought of Jesus Christ I pictured him on the cross with long hair. When I found out about the deceiver matreya it made me think more on the subject of why this false image was seared on my mind of Jesus on the cross. I struggled a bit getting these images away from me and only by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ he has removed them as they are false images. Our Saviour died ONE time on the tree , we should not dwell upon his torture device as satan has great plans for the hippy false jesus and the cross..
Our Saviour is sitting up in heaven on the right hand of God and always will be . As for Paul , I am shore he dwelled and marvelled at the burden Jesus Christ did when he finalalized satan's demise.
I ask you all if this object or symbol is to be adored why then so the papists and just about every other heathan put these on. Who knows what type of demons are attached/attracted to these objects as the symbol of the cross goes back to ancient babylon
thank you for your ears and may God bless you as He has me

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Stuart,

We can agree that the cross was pagan. The Romans were pagans and used that form of torture for Christ's death. This was God's will. So the cross, as used today, is not a symbol of paganism, but rather is a symbol of respect for how Jesus died for us. Regardless of it's pagan origins, God still used it for His glory. Without the cross, none of us would be saved from sin or have eternal life

Whether or not the Catholic religion has elevated it to a place of worship is not really the point, or that they have used an image that is not relevant to represent Christ.

We need to stick with what the Word of God says. I noticed that you used the word "tree" instead of cross. As the NT was written in Greek, it would advantageous to see how the word is used in that language.

G4716
σταυρός
stauros
Thayer Definition:
1) an upright stake, especially a pointed one
2) a cross
2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
2b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent


We know from historical records that the Romans used a cross for crucifixion. Not a stake or a tree - although the cross was obviously made from the wood of a tree. Both Jesus' hands and feet were nailed to the cross, as the Scripture tells us. From what I have read and researched, the pole was at the crucifixion site and the cross beam was hauled by the condemned and then connected to the pole. However; as a side note, Jesus did not carry the cross beam, Simon did. Jesus did bear all of our sins, so in that way He carried the cross.

As I had quoted before, Paul stated clearly that he gloried in the cross, because that is how Jesus died for us I am not sure why you are belittling His death

[Strefanash]

It seems to me that men focus on the details of the cross, ie the horrible torture of the thing, because they have no grasp of the significance of it: they hope to force some kind of understanding by gazing at the gore. This was clearly Mel Gibson's intention in that horrific snuff porn flick i flatly refuse to see. (I'm sorry but that is my serious view of this movie)

Focussing on the gore turns the whole issue into one of Ignatius Loyola's spiritual exercises, which, given that i am carnal minded, is useless.

I have never understood the cross, not where it counts, and have given up gazing at the torture of it. The logic of it is dawning on me but not by forced meditation on the details of crucifixion, rather in my continued dialogue on the law and sin with the Spirit whereby the cross is always implicit in everything we talk about.

Historically the earliest christians did not represent christ by the cross as crucifixion was still a shameful way to die and they likely saw poor victims nailed to crosses every week. But when Constantine outlawed as barbarity such a means of execution (though he favoured his own barbarities like pouring molten metal down rthe throats of homosexuals) the n the church got morbid and focussed on the details.

I would ventiure that St Paul gloried in the significance of the cross, not the gruesome details, but the way to understanding the significance is not on gazing at the details