11-17-2009, 04:04 PM
Quote:However, as I have compared the teachings of Jesus, to the teachings of some of the disciples and apostles in the bible, their teachings on this issue seem to be quite different than the teachings of Christ Himself. For instance, it is plain to see that Paul used titles a lot and he taught about hierarchy within the Church in general and the body of Christ within a given city or group within the city. Jesus on the other hand, seemed to teach about maturity and servant-hood. ... it certainly looks like hierarchy hinders relationship and unity, and servant-hood promotes relationship and unity.
You make a distinction between what Jesus taught and what the apostles, particularly Paul, taught concerning hierarchy and leadership etc. Paul was taught by direct revelation from Christ.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
So he taught what Christ taught him. It didn't contradict what Christ taught or portrayed. Christ was the perfect example of leadership. He put others before Himself, He exemplified the fruit of the Spirit, His purpose was to do the will of the Father, etc.
John 7:17-18 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
The things that Paul brought out were those same issues to be applied to all men. What was added--because no one is perfect, were the qualifications necessary to be leadership, as a guide for all believers in order to try the spirits, and make sure that someone that was placed in leadership with fellow believers--really belonged there. Do you feel those qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus should be applied to all leadership, or can there be God-called people who may not fit those qualifications but feel God has called them to be in a leadership role?
Being in leadership is not an all powerful role....that's where some become snared. It was to be an example of serving Christ, encouraging others to serve Christ and always pointing to Christ and the Word of God as the source of Truth, not themselves.
The concept of 'title's is incorrect, because it was never meant to be with a capital A postles. It was the role they had. Just as teacher, prophet etc was the capacity some served in. It made none better or worse than anyone else. All are/were fellow servants of Jesus Christ, and the focus is to be on Him for His honor and glory.
Romans 12:3-8 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7. Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8. Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Quote:I don't recall one situation where hierarchy doesn't promote self, yet in every situation where I find true servants, I also find selfless, sacrificial love just as Jesus sacrificially loves us and laid down His life for us.
Men fail on a regular basis because of forgetting who they are to serve. We are to serve our risen Savior, but many like the adulation of men above that. Power corrupts, and deception is all part of that. But there are servants of Jesus Christ who stand as examples of living for Him, who have the servant attitude because of Christ living through them, and their focus is on Christ.
Quote:I have not had a home of my own for about 4 years. I have been in so many churches and other such organizations, where people have asked where I live. When I tell them that I am homeless, many shy away from me. Kinda makes one wonder if Jesus in the flesh, would be welcome in the churches today?
Many people don't own their own homes, and yet are swept up in 'things', possessions, coveting owning a home etc. Not having something doesn't make one more humble, or satisfied with what they have. Not owning a home does not make a person more spiritual or in line with obedience to Christ. If people shied away, maybe the issue wasn't about your statement about being homeless but something else?
I am curious about your call as a missionary. When you left your home, I presume that is when you stopped being a homeowner, did you take your family with you...that is, if you have a wife? children? Or were you called to sell everything or leave everything/everyone behind, as some of the apostles did in service for Christ? And if you sold everything, did that leave you money to live on for awhile? Is that how you launched your websites and maintain them?
Quote:If one is to be the best leader, then maybe that one has to be the best servant. How can we love people well without taking the lowly place of a servant? If Jesus is our example, didn't he make Himself a man of no reputation?
I think the issue in your statements that is coming across, whether you intend or not, is the idea of being concerned about being a leader, instead of just living for Christ and doing what He calls us to do, regardless what it is. Jesus said those who would be first will be last.
Mark 9:34-35 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. 35. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Mark 10:42-45 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44. And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Notice the terms minister and to be ministered unto are defined like this:
1) one who executes the commands of another, especially of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
1a) the servant of a king
1b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
1c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, compare G1377)
Citing in TDNT: 2:88, 152
1) to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon
1a) to minister to one, render ministering offices to
1a1) to be served, ministered unto
1b) to wait at a table and offer food and drink to the guests
1b1) of women preparing food
1c) to minister, i.e. supply food and necessities of life
1c1) to relieve one’s necessities (e.g. by collecting alms), to provide take care of, distribute, the things necessary to sustain life
1c2) to take care of the poor and the sick, who administer the office of a deacon
1c3) in Christian churches to serve as deacons
1d) to minister
1d1) to attend to anything, that may serve another’s interests
1d2) to minister a thing to one, to serve one or by supplying any thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1249
Citing in TDNT: 2:81, 152
When people are concerned about their position, ie the role they play in the scheme of things, the focus is on self, instead of Christ.
Luke 14:7-11 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8. When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9. And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10. But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11. For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
I do understand that you likely as a guy feel more inclined to be in a leadership, overseer, elder or teaching role. And likely have grown through various things and matured, if that is what God has called you to.
3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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RE: Denominationalism - Vic - 11-17-2009 04:04 PM
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