Denominationalism

[heb13-13]

Hi Chris,

Sorry to interrupt the dialogue you are having but I have a few questions if you don't mind.

I have tried to read through everything and if I missed it, my apologies.

Are you disabled physically and unable to work? Or do you work? If you are not disabled and don't work, is it because you cannot find a job? Did you recently lose a job?

Are you a casualty of being laid off?

[Strefanash]

I grew up in church, and have been in many different churches and a large variety of different denominations. One thing that I have found across the board so far, is that each has a hierarchy in place, usually with at least a pastor and or staff on payroll. Most seem to believe that is what is taught in the scriptures. However, as I have compared the teachings of Jesus, to the teachings of some of the disciples and apostles in the bible, their teachings on this issue seem to be quite different than the teachings of Christ Himself.

Strefanash:

Yes, heirarchy is how the carnal take the list of offices in the church.
And it shows their bankruptcy. But I think it is mistake to think that a heirarchy is what St Paul meant.

It is a pity so many here are being sidetracked by your admission as to being homeless. For all I know you choose it, and so be it. I could not do such a thing, being too fearful and insecure.

We who judge you for it are likew those in James who look at the man with the nice clothes and gold ring favourably, but mistreat the poor man (I have no idea how you dress but my point is the assumption of unkemptness on your part that is made is not necessary and even if true their response to it is not godly.

Yes, there was a heirarchy in my old church too. that is how carnal minds deal with people

[Mary]

(11-18-2009 01:38 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  I grew up in church, and have been in many different churches and a large variety of different denominations. One thing that I have found across the board so far, is that each has a hierarchy in place, usually with at least a pastor and or staff on payroll. Most seem to believe that is what is taught in the scriptures. However, as I have compared the teachings of Jesus, to the teachings of some of the disciples and apostles in the bible, their teachings on this issue seem to be quite different than the teachings of Christ Himself.

Strefanash:

Yes, heirarchy is how the carnal take the list of offices in the church.
And it shows their bankruptcy. But I think it is mistake to think that a heirarchy is what St Paul meant.

It is a pity so many here are being sidetracked by your admission as to being homeless. For all I know you choose it, and so be it. I could not do such a thing, being too fearful and insecure.

We who judge you for it are likew those in James who look at the man with the nice clothes and gold ring favourably, but mistreat the poor man (I have no idea how you dress but my point is the assumption of unkemptness on your part that is made is not necessary and even if true their response to it is not godly.

Yes, there was a heirarchy in my old church too. that is how carnal minds deal with people

It isn't about Chris's homelessness it is about:

Hierarchy vs anarchy. ie: the order of control vs the absence of order.

Chris' claim that God called him to homelessness: I have asked for validation of that claim.

The apparent contradictions in Chris's lifestyle if God has called him to homelessness.

The idea that abject poverty makes you the "best" servant of Christ (inverse hierarchy).

The idea that hierarchy is man's idea/way and is "wrong", and that anarchy as the opposite is therefore the better way and thus must be God's way.

Eph chp 1: 17 - 23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

We are instructed to pray for our leaders and to pray for our enemies who "despitefully use us". Sometimes they may be one and the same. If Christ is your "head" how can any power stand against you?

[Vic]

(11-18-2009 01:38 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  I grew up in church, and have been in many different churches and a large variety of different denominations. One thing that I have found across the board so far, is that each has a hierarchy in place, usually with at least a pastor and or staff on payroll. Most seem to believe that is what is taught in the scriptures. However, as I have compared the teachings of Jesus, to the teachings of some of the disciples and apostles in the bible, their teachings on this issue seem to be quite different than the teachings of Christ Himself.

Strefanash:

Yes, heirarchy is how the carnal take the list of offices in the church.
And it shows their bankruptcy. But I think it is mistake to think that a heirarchy is what St Paul meant.

It is a pity so many here are being sidetracked by your admission as to being homeless. For all I know you choose it, and so be it. I could not do such a thing, being too fearful and insecure.

We who judge you for it are likew those in James who look at the man with the nice clothes and gold ring favourably, but mistreat the poor man (I have no idea how you dress but my point is the assumption of unkemptness on your part that is made is not necessary and even if true their response to it is not godly.

Yes, there was a heirarchy in my old church too. that is how carnal minds deal with people

Actually Stref, I suspect you were listening to your voice instead of reading the various posts. The issue is not homelessness at all. But, no point discussing that with you. I will elaborate on some other things later. But just wanted to point out--judgment is not being made against/concerning homelessness, or even if a person is unkept, as you so judgmentally have declared against myself, Mary and possibly Sheep. What a person says they are about and what they are actually about can be two different things. You need to learn to get the facts before you make judgments.

[rancherforChrist]

Hello everyone,

There is so much to read in all of the responses to this topic. So, I'm just going to go the simple way with this. There is a scripture that the Lord brought to my mind this morning as I was reading some of the responses that you all have posted. I believe this one scripture will answer the questions that need to be answered. I hope you all will consider this scripture.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The very first statement made in this scripture tells not only why I live the way I live, but it also tells how all who seek to come after Jesus are required to live. I say "required", because it is not a request that has been made. It is a way that has been opened to each person through Jesus, and each person will either walk in that way or not. There is no middle ground. There is cold or hot. God said that He would vomit luke warm water out of His mouth. There is one way and only one way, and His name is Jesus. Here's that important statement: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus". This scripture explains it very thoroughly. I did nothing, but this scripture is what God did in my life and is what He would like to do in yours. If you want to disregard me, that's ok with me. How I live and what I do is not the issue here. What Jesus did and how He lived is what's really important. It is His example that is perfect. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. If you want to look closely at someone's life, then let it be the life of Christ Himself, not my life. If you looked at my life, you would find what a wicked, wretched man I have truly been. If you look at the life of Jesus, you will see perfection and freedom. You will see the Way.

I love you all,
Chris

---

Hello Strefanash,

I just want to clarify something. In my original thread, my intent was in no way to make this an issue about hierarchy vs. anarchy. The real issue is hierarchy vs. unity, unity within the body of Christ. Hierarchy brings division within the body. Hierarchy promotes self. As the head of the body, Jesus has all authority over us, and yet, He desires to be in a relationship of mutual love and respect with us, rather than to rule over us. One can use whatever spiritual authority they have through Christ, to rule over others within the body, or, they can choose to limit themselves as Jesus limited Himself, and they can become servants.

It's nice to meet you Strefanash.

Love ya,
Chris

[Strefanash]

I did not think you were saying that it was heirarchy v anarchy, i was saying that to turn the offices of the church into heirarchy is to abuse them, to lord it over one another as the unbelievers do.

I was not clear whether you said PAul insituted heirarchy or not, but IMO he did not do so.

---

you may consider what kind of hot or cold? I was very hot, but it was not godly, it was carnal fanaticism, zeal without love and certainly zeal without rest.

so i am not hot for God, and making legalism on this verse ("it is not an option") will not address the issue. If I am luke warm i will be lead to repent. Or I will perish. striving to make myself hot will make me a bigot and a fanatic for it will be flesh

an of course there is a abuse of order as opposed to the godly institution of order. look at the creation, all is order to a dazzling degree.

i cannot say that an apostle outranks a person who waits at table, but the godly order is there - if you reject it because of abuse this is irrational and will have you swing from one error to the oposite erro.

do you distinguish order from herarchic abuse of it? do you distinguish or even admit to the possibility of a distinction between heiarchy as instituted by God and heirarchy as abused by men?

---

Vic

Actually Stref, I suspect you were listening to your voice instead of reading the various posts.


Strefanash:

this is sarcastic and insulting. The reason i have not replied to your thread about the voice is because you simply do not want to hear what I might have to say on the matter.

Is is very revealing how in such asides a person's real attitude is revealed.

i am perplexed at how any of you can claim intimacy weith the Holy Spirit when he is reduced to a mere bible verse vending machine who only drops the occasional word from time to time.

look at the verse THE LETTER KILLS. THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE. you cannot get around this by equating the two and turning bible reading into a magical sacrament (and no i am not positing a false dichotomy, only a serious and important distinction which you flatly refuse

you have flatly refused to listen to my testimony that this voice saved me from madness and death. you want a dull hard and arid life trying to live up to some doctrine?

so be it, it is clear i have cast my pearls before swine.

take me off this list

[rancherforChrist]

(11-21-2009 03:41 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  I did not think you were saying that it was heirarchy v anarchy, i was saying that to turn the offices of the church into heirarchy is to abuse them, to lord it over one another as the unbelievers do.

I was not clear whether you said PAul insituted heirarchy or not, but IMO he did not do so.

---

you may consider what kind of hot or cold? I was very hot, but it was not godly, it was carnal fanaticism, zeal without love and certainly zeal without rest.

so i am not hot for God, and making legalism on this verse ("it is not an option") will not address the issue. If I am luke warm i will be lead to repent. Or I will perish. striving to make myself hot will make me a bigot and a fanatic for it will be flesh

an of course there is a abuse of order as opposed to the godly institution of order. look at the creation, all is order to a dazzling degree.

i cannot say that an apostle outranks a person who waits at table, but the godly order is there - if you reject it because of abuse this is irrational and will have you swing from one error to the oposite erro.

do you distinguish order from herarchic abuse of it? do you distinguish or even admit to the possibility of a distinction between heiarchy as instituted by God and heirarchy as abused by men?

Hi Strefanash,

Your response seems to indicate that you thought my last post was directed at you. It was not, nor was my sharing about luke warm water directed at you. None of that was directed at anyone in particular.

In response to the rest of what you said. I believe that God's divine order within the body of Christ is not achieved through hierarchy or position. God's divine order is achieved through submission to Christ as our head, and through submission to one another. Submission to Christ and submission to one another, promotes unity, equality and edification within the body. Surely people weren't healed because of the title of apostle. I thought the prayer offered in faith would heal them and their sins would be forgiven. It doesn't say that the prayer of an apostle would heal them. Isn't it just possible that apostle is a word used to describe God's calling on someone's life, rather than a title to be tossed around as though they have some authority over others. Does authority or maturity come through a title such as apostle, or does it come through faith. I know many called apostles who lack much in maturity and faith. Isn't it also possible that this is not supposed to be about position, but rather, about submission. Position promotes self. Submission promotes Jesus.

Love ya,
Chris

[Mary]

(11-21-2009 02:13 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  Hello everyone,

There is so much to read in all of the responses to this topic. So, I'm just going to go the simple way with this. There is a scripture that the Lord brought to my mind this morning as I was reading some of the responses that you all have posted. I believe this one scripture will answer the questions that need to be answered. I hope you all will consider this scripture.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The very first statement made in this scripture tells not only why I live the way I live, but it also tells how all who seek to come after Jesus are required to live. I say "required", because it is not a request that has been made. It is a way that has been opened to each person through Jesus, and each person will either walk in that way or not. There is no middle ground. There is cold or hot. God said that He would vomit luke warm water out of His mouth. There is one way and only one way, and His name is Jesus. Here's that important statement: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus". This scripture explains it very thoroughly. I did nothing, but this scripture is what God did in my life and is what He would like to do in yours. If you want to disregard me, that's ok with me. How I live and what I do is not the issue here. What Jesus did and how He lived is what's really important. It is His example that is perfect. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. If you want to look closely at someone's life, then let it be the life of Christ Himself, not my life. If you looked at my life, you would find what a wicked, wretched man I have truly been. If you look at the life of Jesus, you will see perfection and freedom. You will see the Way.

I love you all,
Chris

---

Hello Strefanash,

I just want to clarify something. In my original thread, my intent was in no way to make this an issue about hierarchy vs. anarchy. The real issue is hierarchy vs. unity, unity within the body of Christ. Hierarchy brings division within the body. Hierarchy promotes self. As the head of the body, Jesus has all authority over us, and yet, He desires to be in a relationship of mutual love and respect with us, rather than to rule over us. One can use whatever spiritual authority they have through Christ, to rule over others within the body, or, they can choose to limit themselves as Jesus limited Himself, and they can become servants.

It's nice to meet you Strefanash.

Love ya,
Chris

Chris,

If I read this scripture as your answer to all the questions being asked of you, as well as the reason for your original post, then do I take it that you believe yourself to be equal with God?

"Jesus has all authority over us, and yet, He desires to be in a relationship of mutual love and respect with us, rather than to rule over us."

Can you please supply scripture in support of this? Christ is the Head, we are to obey Him, we are to bring our will under His control and in line with His.
Acts 10 : 34 and 35

"# Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
# But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Does that sound like mutual love and respect to you?

"One can use whatever spiritual authority they have through Christ, to rule over others within the body, or, they can choose to limit themselves as Jesus limited Himself, and they can become servants."

What nonsense is this? Submit yourself to Christ. Chris, I charge you that you are deceiving people and attempting to draw them away from Christ. You are attempting to enter the sheepfold another way:
John 10: 1:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Mark 10:19
".... defraud not..."

And please Chris, if you do respond to this, do not toss me a flippant "love ya".

[rancherforChrist]

Chris,

If I read this scripture as your answer to all the questions being asked of you, as well as the reason for your original post, then do I take it that you believe yourself to be equal with God?

"Jesus has all authority over us, and yet, He desires to be in a relationship of mutual love and respect with us, rather than to rule over us."

Can you please supply scripture in support of this? Christ is the Head, we are to obey Him, we are to bring our will under His control and in line with His.
Acts 10 : 34 and 35

"# Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
# But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Does that sound like mutual love and respect to you?

"One can use whatever spiritual authority they have through Christ, to rule over others within the body, or, they can choose to limit themselves as Jesus limited Himself, and they can become servants."

What nonsense is this? Submit yourself to Christ. Chris, I charge you that you are deceiving people and attempting to draw them away from Christ. You are attempting to enter the sheepfold another way:
John 10: 1:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Mark 10:19
".... defraud not..."

And please Chris, if you do respond to this, do not toss me a flippant "love ya".
[/quote]

Mary,

I would say, "you've got to be kidding me", but I already know that you're not. First you tell me that submitting myself to Christ is nonsense, then you tell me that I'm deceiving people and leading them away from Christ.

Oh, one more thing Mary. It's not for you to say who I can express my love to in word or in deed. So, no offense is meant, but I will express love to whoever I choose. If you choose not to receive it, then Mary, that really is your problem.

You are not a nice person Mary, and your words are downright cruel, but my love is not governed by what you do or say,

So,

I love you anyway,
Chris

[Mary]

(11-22-2009 02:21 AM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  Chris,

If I read this scripture as your answer to all the questions being asked of you, as well as the reason for your original post, then do I take it that you believe yourself to be equal with God?

"Jesus has all authority over us, and yet, He desires to be in a relationship of mutual love and respect with us, rather than to rule over us."

Can you please supply scripture in support of this? Christ is the Head, we are to obey Him, we are to bring our will under His control and in line with His.
Acts 10 : 34 and 35

"# Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
# But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Does that sound like mutual love and respect to you?

"One can use whatever spiritual authority they have through Christ, to rule over others within the body, or, they can choose to limit themselves as Jesus limited Himself, and they can become servants."

What nonsense is this? Submit yourself to Christ. Chris, I charge you that you are deceiving people and attempting to draw them away from Christ. You are attempting to enter the sheepfold another way:
John 10: 1:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Mark 10:19
".... defraud not..."

And please Chris, if you do respond to this, do not toss me a flippant "love ya".

Mary,

I would say, "you've got to be kidding me", but I already know that you're not. First you tell me that submitting myself to Christ is nonsense, then you tell me that I'm deceiving people and leading them away from Christ.

Oh, one more thing Mary. It's not for you to say who I can express my love to in word or in deed. So, no offense is meant, but I will express love to whoever I choose. If you choose not to receive it, then Mary, that really is your problem.

You are not a nice person Mary, and your words are downright cruel, but my love is not governed by what you do or say,

So,

I love you anyway,
Chris
[/quote]

Well done Chris, you have avoided supplying supporting scriptures for your words and also answering my questions. I am not deflected - can you be honest enough to answer them?