Joseph Prince

[kg18]

(11-12-2011 03:07 PM)Vic Wrote:  kg18, In the future, please answer only one post at a time. It gets too confusing to answer several posts in one, especially if they are lengthy. And please answer my pm. Please also SHOW your version due to copyright.

Quote:Each of these scriptures shows how God blesses and causes us to live abundantly, because He loves us! And, these scriptures are all in the OLD testament, before grace in its fullness had even been established through Jesus dying on the cross to take away ALL of our sins, past and present, so that we could live with HIS righteousness!

I don't understand what Bible you are reading if you think God does not want us to live abundantly and FREE from sickness and afflictions.

Just to clarify, each of the Genesis verses you sourced was showing how God blessed the individual person. Might we turn to Job to see how God also allowed destruction and loss in Job's life? How about David? Jacob? Israel?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

2Ki 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
2Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Psa 77:1 <To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of Asaph.> I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me.
Psa 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.
Psa 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.
Psa 77:4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak.
Psa 77:5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Psa 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
Psa 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
Psa 77:8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
Psa 77:9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.
Psa 77:10 And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.
Psa 77:11 I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old.
Psa 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
Psa 77:14 Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
Psa 77:15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.
Psa 77:16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.
Psa 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.
Psa 77:18 The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
Psa 77:19 Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.
Psa 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And notice what Jesus said concerning the idea that all sickness etc was of the devil or caused by sin:

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

What did James say about when people BECOME SICK?

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? [/b]let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. [/b]

God's grace was evident throughout Scripture starting from Adam and Eve's disobedience. He could have destroyed them right then, but He did not but 'punished' them for their disobedience. The consequence of sin, and throughout Scriptures, both Old and NEW, we see God's perfect judgments, mercy and grace on those issues. In fact we know that God does allow sickness for His purposes.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, [u]My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to
my wants.
Php 2:26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Php 2:28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
Php 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
Php 2:30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

[quote]Simply put, everything GOOD comes from God, bad=satan. Affliction comes from satan, not because God wants us to live a miserable life.. What kind of witness is that?

Tell all of the unbelievers to come join us in a miserable life of sickness and poverty in the name of Christ and see what response you get. That is not the message of GOOD NEWS...
Yes, we will suffer through pain and affliction simply because we live in an imperfect world and suffer consequences of our decisions here on earth, but it is never God's desire for us to live anything but an ABUNDANT LIFE!

So you think the rose garden doesn't have thorns? Everything good comes from God and everything bad comes from satan. So when God sent His Son Jesus---that must have been a bad thing since He ended up crucified, and dying for all our sins? And when people have incredible wealth yet don't know Christ, that wealth must still come from God because wealthy "abundance" is only from God not satan?

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

God's chastisement is from Him and can come in many ways.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Affliction can come because of disobedience, but life in this imperfect world also allows for trials and tribulations. Who said that unless one is rolling in wealth they are miserable and are living less than an 'abundant' and victorious life in Christ? The love of money is the root of all evil. The disciples were sent out with nothing, and Jesus said He did not have a place to lay His head. Was He then a poor example of trusting and living for God? How about the apostles?

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Those who belong to Jesus Christ will suffer persecution.. Is that some of the information you don't want those who may come to Christ, to know about? That reality? And what of suffering persecution because of Christ in us, which all who live for Christ will endure, or not?

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You wish to paint a picture of serving Christ without loss, trials, possible poverty, illness, death, persecution, destruction and life issues in general? What bubble would you be living in and what Scripture would support it? Resting in Christ is doing just that, in spite of all that could occur all around us and what may happen to us. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.

Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

splitting answer for size....

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Jesus said speaking to his disciples in John 9:1-3, was absolutely NOT saying that the works of God were manifest in this man's sickness, but that His works were manifest thru Jesus healing him from his affliction.

You are misunderstanding, and taking into your own understanding 98% of everything that has been said. And btw, you said some people have listened to Joseph Prince and found it unscriptural? Have YOU yourself sat down and listened or are you simply judging someone that is teaching about JESUS, by what others say. These are things the Pharisees did. Claiming that what Jesus was doing, by healing all the sick, raising the dead and giving abundant life was undoctrinal simply because they "thought" it wasn't the way it should've been done, or simply on the wrong day of the week.

"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us" (Mk. 9:38-40).

The fact is that Joseph Prince is spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. I've watched his teachings, I went down and saw him speak in Houston a few weeks ago. Every point he makes, he quotes a scripture along with it, so if you assume differently, you apparently have not watched him yourself but are going of others judgemental comments.
Either that, or you are offended by how he is doing it, (which is how the pharisees were with Jesus, btw) always looking for a way to prove someone wrong. Do you prefer arguing on doctrinal base or are you out there trying to spread the good news a Jesus and what he has done for us also?
We get nowhere worrying about differences and arguing and proving each other wrong, simply looking for bad in others. Joseph Prince is not spreading bad news that will send people to hell, so what are you in such strong opposition to one of your brothers in Christ for? Your smelling "rats" and seeing bad in others and what good are you doing by it? Are you glorifying God in any way? Because Joseph Prince never takes credit for himself. He always gives the glory to God, saying that the reason we are able to be where we are with God is because of what Jesus has done and because God loves us that much.

Before you jump on Joseph Prince or anyone else for that matter, watch his teachings yourself... Because his ENTIRE message, everything he speaks on is about how God loves us IN SPITE of our sinful nature and that Jesus takes our place in EVERYTHING, God sees us as righteous because he is looking at JESUS in our place! You are correct, we ourselves are unrighteous, but Jesus stands in our place and has made us righteous before God, and that is EXACTLY what Joseph Prince speaks on. So if he gives ALL the glory to God, then he is not falsely teaching, he is making it all about Jesus which we all should be doing not turning on each other, not looking for something wrong to jump on. That is like paparazzi jumping on any imperfection of a celebrity.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Words of Jesus... The woman should have been stoned according to "doctrine", but that's not what happened because of Jesus.
What is your opposition to Joseph Prince, or anyone else that is out there trying to spread the love of Jesus and His goodness, doing to win anyone to Jesus or further the kingdom?

And btw, while we are on Joseph Prince, using his salary as a weapon against him is offpoint also... If you did your research correctly, the $550,000 dollars that was paid out in the year of 2008 was never confirmed by the New Creation Church as Joseph Prince's pay check. It is recorded that while he was on payroll, he refused every raise that the church board tried to offer him. And Joseph Prince has been OFF of the church's payroll since 2009. He is a VOLUNTEER pastor now. That only further proves you and the others points of him being a pastor all about money as FALSE.
{Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them --as requested---if you have not done so, and which you have either totally disregarded following them or have chosen to disregard reading them as required--Vic}
He is truly in love with our Creator and wants to spread that good news with the world.