Pre- millenialism vs Amillenialism

[Mary]

I thought that now that I'm allowed I would post a link and invite comments and discussion on it. The views in this link are those of Bill Daniels who is the pastor of the church I used to attend. (see my intro).

I'm not going to pretend I understand all the "stuff" around pre- mill, a-mill, post trib, pre-trib and the rapture, but this I do know: Jesus Christ, the son of God will return. It will be personal - He's coming for me, and I must be ready: watchful and waiting; and it will be general: every eye shall see Him, and every knee shall bow to Him.

here is the link:
http://www.cornerstonepress.org/pages/ot...nswers.php

[sheep wrecked]

(12-29-2009 06:49 PM)Mary Wrote:  I thought that now that I'm allowed I would post a link and invite comments and discussion on it. The views in this link are those of Bill Daniels who is the pastor of the church I used to attend. (see my intro).

I'm not going to pretend I understand all the "stuff" around pre- mill, a-mill, post trib, pre-trib and the rapture, but this I do know: Jesus Christ, the son of God will return. It will be personal - He's coming for me, and I must be ready: watchful and waiting; and it will be general: every eye shall see Him, and every knee shall bow to Him.

here is the link:
http://www.cornerstonepress.org/pages/ot...nswers.php

Not wanting to spend a ton of time on this subject, let me just define a couple of points that the link above adheres to. The big one is that he is a dispensationalist, which means he believes that national Israel will be saved after a rapture. He also appears to confuse spiritual and literal fulfillment, like categorizing Christ's reign in a specific time frame, rather than eternal aka the actuality upon His resurrection and ascension stretching forward into infinity [Jesus is not currently King according to the writer]. The writer does not view the church as a spiritual entity, but rather a physical one of sorts [separates believers by OT and NT instead of a unified body] - which I find puzzling considering the amount of NT Scripture which points otherwise. There are many other concepts presented that lack Scriptural support, in my opinion, which I don't want to elaborate on at this time due to my own time limitations

However, I completely concur that instead of trying to figure out how the end of this age is going to be fulfilled [and only God knows that ], it is best to be ready for Jesus and live for Him with all our being - as if today is our last

[Vic]

(12-29-2009 06:49 PM)Mary Wrote:  I thought that now that I'm allowed I would post a link and invite comments and discussion on it. The views in this link are those of Bill Daniels who is the pastor of the church I used to attend. (see my intro).

I'm not going to pretend I understand all the "stuff" around pre- mill, a-mill, post trib, pre-trib and the rapture, but this I do know: Jesus Christ, the son of God will return. It will be personal - He's coming for me, and I must be ready: watchful and waiting; and it will be general: every eye shall see Him, and every knee shall bow to Him.

here is the link:
http://www.cornerstonepress.org/pages/ot...nswers.php

I still get muddled when I see the phrasings for this stuff. Over ten years ago I wrote, The Father Knows http://www.seekgod.ca/father.htm

It was actually one of my first online writings. I couldn't believe the amount of time spent by people trying to be the ones who figured out a specific timeline and such. To me it seemed many were so not focused on Christ but wanting to 'divine' the future using the Scriptures. THey wanted to be able to tell everyone how right they were and how wrong others were. I suppose many still do it for those hidden reasons. The reality is--God knows and we are supposed to be about His business, knowing that our time here may end at any moment. What do we want to be doing if we are called home?

That said, in perusing the writing, I saw the dispensational funnel being applied as Sheep mentioned and that means a mans concepts are being used to declare what will be, based on those teachings. That tended to skew objective statements and analysis in my opinion. For what it's worth. It lost validity because of that on many points. If it had just been Scriptural truth applied, it would have been a better presentation. But it was definitely skewed and skewed the Scriptures.

The whole issue of believing that Israel will all be saved after all is said and done is contrary to the truth of the Gospel. That is one area we have discussed here. It makes the New Covenant and the fulfillment of the promise of it, first to Israel, and then the mystery that it was for gentiles too, to have forgiveness and be one new man in Christ, void.

It means that because of the funnel of dispensationalism, there are 2 types of salvation offered. THe one for the church--which includes Jews and Gentiles and then salvation for "all Israel" Jews who had rejected Christ but because of their Jewishness they still get to be saved-without the indwelling Holy Spirit. I can't even begin to state what this means, and how it overturns Scripture after Scripture. The misinterpretation of verses and passages means not believing those things. Such as:

Acts 3:17-26 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; [b]for God hath shewed it unto them.[/u]

Romans 16:25-26 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:3-6 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Someone else posted somewhere when this was being discussed that the Jews saved from the time of Christ forward weren't part of the nation of Israel but the church, and that made them different than all the nation of Israel that will be saved, while also noting it says Isaiah prophesied only a third of the Israel would ever accept Christ. Paul speaks of a remnant, not the whole nation.

It's things like this that really cause confusion. People aren't reading the Scriptures and gaining understanding. They are going by what someone said they mean based on what someone decided should be the way to interpret. The Holy Spirit is to give us understanding and God's Word does not contradict itself.

1 Corinthians 2:5-8 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

These issues were somewhat discussed in a few other threads.

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...357&page=1

[Vic]

I meant to use these verses also in regards to who the gospel was preached to and all had opportunity by the grace of God to accept or reject it. It started with the Jews:

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:37-41 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 13:31-33 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Romans 9:24-27 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 10:34-43 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all 37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 10:9-21 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16. According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Hebrews 3:5-9 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Israel has been given opportunity through the law and the prophets, to believe them and know Christ. Jesus went to them personally, being the fulfillment of the promises. He said of those Jews who rejected Him--because thousands did believe Him and still do come to Him:

John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[Mary]

Thank you Sheep and Vic for your words and scriptures. I have read through them, with some "aha's" Yess! and "now that make sense" moments. I want to read more, and read Hosea again. What a wonderful book Hebrews is!

When I came to this new country I met a good Christian woman who said that if I could not remember something I probably didn't understand it, and I think it was Sheep who suggested in another thread that if something - a teaching/idea/doctrine - is confusing, it is probably not true, because God is not the author of confusion. I have come to realise that I took a lot for granted, and just accepted some things without questioning, although I did also learn a lot.

[Mary]

I have been very busy lately, so have not come back to this. I have felt quite embarrassed to realise that I did not actually know that (a) the church I attended was "dispensationalist" and (b) that I don't really understand what "dispensationalism" means. I have a lot more reading to do!

It has all made me think of this verse from 1 Corinthians 3: 4 -6

"For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase."

so... may God increase my understanding!

[Vic]

(01-08-2010 04:32 AM)Mary Wrote:  I have been very busy lately, so have not come back to this. I have felt quite embarrassed to realise that I did not actually know that (a) the church I attended was "dispensationalist" and (b) that I don't really understand what "dispensationalism" means. I have a lot more reading to do!

It has all made me think of this verse from 1 Corinthians 3: 4 -6

"For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase."

so... may God increase my understanding!

That's ok Mary. Until it came up on this forum, I thought it merely meant, of course different things happened at different times. Like God created the heavens and the earth at a particular time. No suprise there.

I have compiled a bunch of research on it and also dealing with the various aspects of it-including the 'all Israel will be saved etc. Keep getting side tracked to other topics, but hopefully after I fnish the HR FAQS, I will be posting a series refuting it fully.

It really is when we go to the Word of God that we can prove or disprove beliefs. And it can be disproven--IF people actually do believe the Word of God. But those who promote and see through the dispensational lens, twist--I believe someone used the term -scriptural gymnastics- the Scriptures to make them fit that belief system. It's not right. God's Word is there for us to learn doctrine from, not for us to make up something and then make the Word try to fit it. Many do that, but it's not what we are called to do. BTw do take a look at the http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=162 It's foundational to dispensational beliefs. also http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=141

[Saltyone]

I didn't know where to put this so I try here.


Has anyone read "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen

Its a reference to the End Times

[sheep wrecked]

(02-09-2011 03:59 PM)Saltyone Wrote:  I didn't know where to put this so I try here.


Has anyone read "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen

Its a reference to the End Times

Nope. I did do some googling on it. It looks like more hype

Quote:Van Kampen’s three-quarters rapture view is a blend of midtribulational and posttribulational rationale. Instead of seeing the 24 terms describing the seventieth week of Daniel as denoting various characteristics of a single period, Van Kampen chops them into compartmental segments that contain either the wrath of man and Satan or the wrath of God. Through redefinition, Van Kampen limits the wrath of God to the final year and three-quarters of the seven-year period and deduces that the rapture occurs right before that time period. Van Kampen distinguishes the rapture and the second coming with a gap of one and three-quarters years between them, even though he makes a big deal that they are a single event. Van Kampen has the church continuing through the first three-quarters of the tribulation until the three-quarters point rapture occurs. Thus, the three-quarters rapture theory. Note the chart of Van Kampen’s three-quarters rapture theory. Van Kampen’s theory requires several unique features concerning the church and the tribulation. First, he chops the seventieth week of Daniel into three parts: 1) the beginning of birth pangs (first three and a half years), 2) the great tribulation (first half of the second half of the seven years), 3) the day of the Lord (last half of the second half of the seven years, plus a thirty day period after the second coming).

http://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html

Daniel's weeks have already been fulfilled. What more can I say?