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Translational Inconsistencies
12-25-2008, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 12-25-2008 11:41 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #21
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
(12-25-2008 10:40 PM)carl37 Wrote:  I in now way am trying to prove that the scriptures have errors in it. I am just puzzled by the discrepancy. At the time of the writing of these books, I believe the Messiah had already been crucified and it was years later. So the disciples knew he was the Messiah. Why would Matthew make such an error recording the genealogy. There has to be 14 generations. Making the geneology of the Messiah go through Joseph whom isn't his father to get to 14 is a huge error.

I don't believe it is an error - just a different perspective. What surprises me is that many Messianics use the geneologies to disprove Greek NT primacy, when they have missed the forest for the trees - so to speak. Joseph was legally Jesus' human father, therefore; Jesus is considered his son by bloodline. This is according to OT practice, btw 6788
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12-26-2008, 08:11 PM
Post: #22
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
I would like to state that while I do not have any animosity toward Messianic people. I do not label myself as that. I prefer to remain non-denominational. I do however find it dismaying that anytime something that can be equated with Messianic belief is lumped in as Messianic. Furthermore the disparaging of Messianics by calling them "messys" as such is in my opinion uncalled for. It really borders on the ridiculous as it is not reflecting the love of Yehushua. It is perfectly fine to disagree with ones beliefs as long as it is done in a respectful way. Someone posted that Messianics refer to christians as "lawless christians" why not refer to them as "misguided Messianics."
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12-26-2008, 08:38 PM
Post: #23
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
Hi Carl

Quote:Why would Matthew make such an error recording the genealogy. There has to be 14 generations. Making the geneology of the Messiah go through Joseph whom isn't his father to get to 14 is a huge error.

Error in what?
Matthew was trying to make a point about descendancy. If he omitted some in the line to get 14 ,its no big deal,the point was showing who was in Jesus lineage via his mother's line and the other through Joseph's.

In Matthew we get the lineage from Joseph and in Luke we have the one from Mary.

In the book of Luke we see that its emphasised that Jesus was only the "supposed" or "apparent " son of Joseph.(Lk3:23) and Heli was Mary's father not Josephs.(This fact is actually confirmed in the Jerusalem Talmud)
In the book of Matthew in


Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

the pronoun of whom in the greek is in femenine form and refers to Mary.Thus Matthew avoids identifying there Joseph as being the father of Jesus.

Carl,I hope this helps to shed a bit of light on the genealogy issues Wave
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12-27-2008, 06:03 PM
Post: #24
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
Nomad Man, you only claim some knowledge in Biblical Hebrew, but you know neither Greek or aramaic/syriac ..how do you suppose you can translate passages and sources that are comprised of those languages....osmosis...direct and new revelation...which means all other translations become null and void if you are getting new and direct revelation? 89

If you are not making that claim and are just guessing a best guess scenario....by whose authority are you changing the Word of God? What makes you an expert when you obviously are not expert in Hebrew and have no knowledge of the other needed languages?
Lightning

Quote: Georgetown Wesleyan University of the Americas and is based in Florida. There website is http://www.gwua.net. I have been a professor with them for almost a year.


I was more than a little troubled when I accessed the gwua's application for admission and found this paragraph.
Icon_new_shocked

Quote: http://www.gwua.net/application_for_admission.pdf.
Georgetown Wesleyan University of the AmericasFreeport, Grand BahamasAPPLICATION FOR ADMISSION

"Georgetown Wesleyan University is a member of the Accrediting Commission International (ACI) and the International Association of Biblical Counselors. ACI is the world’s largest non-government-related accrediting association. All credits are transferable to the other 321 schools which are members of ACI. No guarantee is implied or promised for transferal of credit to any government agencies or non-ACI schools. Normally, the receiving institutions or agencies determine which courses they will accept on a case-by-case basis.

While I have shown in articles information concerning ACI--I thought you might appreciate some background from another source-- http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm3.html Great Moments in Accreditation: The Case of IAC, ACI, and The Three Stooges by John Bear

Since the pages concerning your being "adjunct professor" are unavailable on the gwua website, Jeff, we see on your own website some of your background
> http://www.mechanical-translation.org/ > http://www.mechanical-translation.org/ab...lator.html

Quote: MT Home > About > The Translator
"...Because of the inconsistent manner in which the Bible has been translated, improper interpretations have been made. ...

I asked myself, "If one wishes to do a serious study of the Bible, how is one to sort through this conglomeration of word translations?" I realized that there was only one answer to this question, I needed to learn the original language for myself so that I did not have to rely on the translators opinions of what the text meant. "

Excellent point Jeff!!-- so we know we don't have to consider you as a translator to be listened to, right? Smiles_pinkbounce Since it is merely your opinion about the words used versus the many involved in the translation of for example -the KJV which you use as an example of mistranslation?

Quote:"My first introduction to Hebrew came through a "Learn the Hebrew alphabet" course that was being offered at a local synagogue. Through this course, I came to acquire a deep interest in the Hebrew language and continued my studies in learning this fascinating language. "

So was this a course in Modern Hebrew or Biblical Hebrew, Jeff?

Quote:"In 1999 my wife and I created the "Ancient Hebrew Research Center" as a means of teaching the Ancient Hebrew alphabet, language and culture of the Bible. With the vast amount information that I had collected, sifted through, and compiled on the original Hebrew language of the Bible, I published my first major work in the Ancient Hebrew language in 2005, the "Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible."

With the completion of the Lexicon, it was decided that a new translation of the Hebrew Bible was needed which used the Lexicon as its foundation. Work then began on the "Mechanical Translation of the Book of Genesis" which was published in 2007. "

So you made your very own Lexicon-different than any scholar fluent in Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic and now developed your own translation based on that Lexicon---fascinating....2497

Umm.. Jeff, not to put down your accomplishments, but your resume is all based on your own activities, own website, own cd's, own books, newsletter, seminars, etc. Other than the claim of a "Adjunct Professor - Georgetown Wesleyan University of the Americas (2008 to present) " which you stated has only been for this past year--and quite frankly---I would be inclined to remove that "professorship" from your resume--as it surely is not a "normal" University or Bible college and not accredited by a recognised accreditation agency--no matter how ACI presents themselves. 6799

I hate to point out about NG and your info to them--but they take anything that is new or different, so to speak...and the "Honorary Doctor of Ministry degree in Hebrew Language Studies, Georgetown Wesleyan University of the Americas (2008)" --simply means they gave you something you didn't earn by scholarly/formal education methods, and which they don't offer in Biblical languages, from what I can ascertain. Again, their endorsement really is not a flag waving event...I would not be mentioning it myself. 3511

The endorsement of accuracy of the Hebrew Language if wanted, should come from actual scholars of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek---since those are the languages necessary to translate the Word of God. But then, you don't have all those qualifications do you?
:shameonyou:

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Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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12-27-2008, 09:44 PM (This post was last modified: 12-27-2008 09:51 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #25
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
(12-26-2008 08:11 PM)carl37 Wrote:  I would like to state that while I do not have any animosity toward Messianic people. I do not label myself as that. I prefer to remain non-denominational. I do however find it dismaying that anytime something that can be equated with Messianic belief is lumped in as Messianic. Furthermore the disparaging of Messianics by calling them "messys" as such is in my opinion uncalled for. It really borders on the ridiculous as it is not reflecting the love of Yehushua. It is perfectly fine to disagree with ones beliefs as long as it is done in a respectful way. Someone posted that Messianics refer to christians as "lawless christians" why not refer to them as "misguided Messianics."

Hi Carl Wave

It is kinda obvious from your posting that you have spent a great deal of time in the Messianic land. Your comments, observations, and beliefs are pretty much lined up with that system. "Messy" is a nic name which is quite appropriate, in my opinion. Having been a full blown Messianic at one time, using "messy" is just a handle that I adopted. I am sorry that it offends you, but I really mean no harm by it No

The Messianics do not believe that Christians are Messianic at all, due to a perceived rejection of Torah, so messys would never label Christians as "mis-guided Messianics". I am wondering why you think that Christians are any more misguided than Messianics? :what:

Many messys truly believe that Christians are not the bride of Christ :tears: Michael Rood promotes it quite openly Swoon
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12-31-2008, 05:48 AM
Post: #26
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
For messianics to call christians lawless is, from that perspective, to show total misunderstanding of what both the Law is for and of what grace is.

for though I now hold that legalism is a species of lawlessness, and so the charge applies most likely to all of us (esp myself) yet as their definitinon of lawfullness (NB lawfullness not lawlessness) means adhering to rituals christ fulfilled and are therefore irrelevant, they are legalist. For though my definition of legalism is now broad enough to mean any moral action forced and so without love, yet they stand convicted by the simplest defintion, the one the church uses to excuse itself of the charge, namely obsession with rites now renderd obsolete

that alone shows that they deny Grace, seek to be perfected by their own efforts (or "in the flesh" as St Pauls puts it) and are extremely deceived.

And as their legalism is a matter of principle and considered doctrine, rather than, as with us, simple unbelief uncompouded by doctrinal maneuvering, that makes them a manifest heresy
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12-31-2008, 07:51 PM
Post: #27
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
Sheep wrecked,

Sorry about the delay. Unfortunately I will have to disagree. I haven't spent a great deal of time in Messianic land. To tell the truth I didn't even spend alot of time in christian land. It shames me to say this but here is my story. I was raised in a family that never went to church. My father was a coal miner and mom was a stay at home mom. I was raised much as one would have been raised in the 30's or 40's. Mom was strict and used any opportunity to use the "board of education" Dad was a hard worker and in man's definition "a good man". My parents split up when I was a senior in high school. My mom, sister, and I started going to church. I answered the proverbial altar call and got "saved". A few months later I went into the military and God was on the back burner. God continued on the back burner while I married someone I shouldn't have married. Hence, we are no longer together. I live with the pain of having fathered a daughter under those circumstances. God stayed on the back burner as I continued on my merry way. I met another woman who had twin boys and eventually we had a son together. We are married today but alas she is not interested in God. Shortly after we started dating I started working at a christian radio station as a part-time announcer. God was off the back burner, but not the entire focus either. I continued on that path until one time I did hear Michael Rood talking about the feasts and Sabbath on a show that used to air on the station "The Prophecy Club" It did peak my curiosity and I began to wonder about it. I bought a Vine's expository dictionary of old and new testament words and when I saw what it said about the sabbath it peaked my curiousity even more. So I used the internet to research the christian holidays and other things and in my own mind became convinced that something was amiss. I then heard Mark Blitz talking about the feasts and their prophetic implications and that peaked my curiosity even more. Since then I have tried to do as much research on my own. Have I listened to Michael Rood? Some. Do I agree with everything he says? No. Have I listened to Stan Johnson? Some. Do I agree with everything he says? No. Have I listened to Billy Graham, J. Vernon Mcgee, David Jeremiah, Chuck Smith and the list could go on. Yes I actually listened to them alot more as I worked at the station. Do I agree with everything they say? No. At this point in time I am asking God (I prefer not to use that version) to teach me and show me what I need to know. I do know that I believe that (Jesus) ( I prefer this one even less) came to die on the cross as the final sacrifice for my and all sin. I am currently searching to see how to continue on his path. So as you can see all I have to show for when I stand in front of the Almighty on that final day is dung. I pray and believe that he remembers my sin no more. I apologize if this is not the appropriate place for this. But as we all know, the almighty knows and sees all. Nothing can be hidden. I felt it necessary to share. Even though I am ashamed.

Hi Carl Wave

It is kinda obvious from your posting that you have spent a great deal of time in the Messianic land. Your comments, observations, and beliefs are pretty much lined up with that system. "Messy" is a nic name which is quite appropriate, in my opinion. Having been a full blown Messianic at one time, using "messy" is just a handle that I adopted. I am sorry that it offends you, but I really mean no harm by it No

The Messianics do not believe that Christians are Messianic at all, due to a perceived rejection of Torah, so messys would never label Christians as "mis-guided Messianics". I am wondering why you think that Christians are any more misguided than Messianics? :what:

Many messys truly believe that Christians are not the bride of Christ :tears: Michael Rood promotes it quite openly Swoon

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12-31-2008, 10:32 PM
Post: #28
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
(12-31-2008 07:51 PM)carl37 Wrote:  Sheep wrecked,

Sorry about the delay. Unfortunately I will have to disagree. I haven't spent a great deal of time in Messianic land. To tell the truth I didn't even spend alot of time in christian land. It shames me to say this but here is my story. I was raised in a family that never went to church. My father was a coal miner and mom was a stay at home mom. I was raised much as one would have been raised in the 30's or 40's. Mom was strict and used any opportunity to use the "board of education" Dad was a hard worker and in man's definition "a good man". My parents split up when I was a senior in high school. My mom, sister, and I started going to church. I answered the proverbial altar call and got "saved". A few months later I went into the military and God was on the back burner. God continued on the back burner while I married someone I shouldn't have married. Hence, we are no longer together. I live with the pain of having fathered a daughter under those circumstances. God stayed on the back burner as I continued on my merry way. I met another woman who had twin boys and eventually we had a son together. We are married today but alas she is not interested in God. Shortly after we started dating I started working at a christian radio station as a part-time announcer. God was off the back burner, but not the entire focus either. I continued on that path until one time I did hear Michael Rood talking about the feasts and Sabbath on a show that used to air on the station "The Prophecy Club" It did peak my curiosity and I began to wonder about it. I bought a Vine's expository dictionary of old and new testament words and when I saw what it said about the sabbath it peaked my curiousity even more. So I used the internet to research the christian holidays and other things and in my own mind became convinced that something was amiss. I then heard Mark Blitz talking about the feasts and their prophetic implications and that peaked my curiosity even more. Since then I have tried to do as much research on my own. Have I listened to Michael Rood? Some. Do I agree with everything he says? No. Have I listened to Stan Johnson? Some. Do I agree with everything he says? No. Have I listened to Billy Graham, J. Vernon Mcgee, David Jeremiah, Chuck Smith and the list could go on. Yes I actually listened to them alot more as I worked at the station. Do I agree with everything they say? No. At this point in time I am asking God (I prefer not to use that version) to teach me and show me what I need to know. I do know that I believe that (Jesus) ( I prefer this one even less) came to die on the cross as the final sacrifice for my and all sin. I am currently searching to see how to continue on his path. So as you can see all I have to show for when I stand in front of the Almighty on that final day is dung. I pray and believe that he remembers my sin no more. I apologize if this is not the appropriate place for this. But as we all know, the almighty knows and sees all. Nothing can be hidden. I felt it necessary to share. Even though I am ashamed.

Thanx for sharing part of your life and struggles. I am sorry that you had to go through all the dysfunctional relationships as well as your challenges with your spiritual life. Unfortunately, when we are not grounded in the Word, teachers can easily mislead us.

I definitely understand the appeal of Michael Rood. I used to be one of his most ardent followers. I have seen all of his feast videos, read some of his books, listened to many tapes, and read a ton of his emails and newsletters, so I am more than familiar with his ability to "wow" people with his teaching style. However, I must warn you that Michael Rood is probably one of the most untruthful Messianic teachers that I know of. It's hard to rate them, they all lie so much. I often remark that his teaching style is information overload, which to an "outsider" [which I now consider myself] is loaded with opinion, conjecture, contradiction, and deliberate lies about the Word of God, himself, and the concepts that he teaches. He is also a false prophet. There are lots of articles on MR that expose him. The SeekGod website has tons of documented articles. I would suggest reading them. I will also give you the links to two other sites who have exposed him as well, including one that digs deeply into his affiliation with The Way International, a cult that Michael was involved in for many years and a leader in as well. He has taken much teaching and "theology" from the Way, which denies the Deity of Christ and incorporated it into his "Messianic gospel of greed".

This is SeekGod's latest article with links to the others:


http://www.seekgod.ca/roodbreakup.htm

The Way International connection:

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/spl_R...Evalua.htm

http://www.isitso.org/guide/rood.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A word of advice from someone who has been involved in two false religious movements - stop listening to the teachers out there, and just read the Bible. You are jumping through hoops to find knowledge about God and He is not found/known through the eyes of man, but through the Holy Spirit. I do not trust any of the teachers, pastors and leaders that you have listed. Most of them I know way too much information on and it's not good.

A question that someone once asked of me, I will ask of you - Does God expect us to dumpster dive to find the truth? You may be saying to yourself, men have valuable things to say and I can just eat the meat and spit out the bones. The problem is that the bones will eventually get stuck in your throat.

Another saying I have heard is: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The problem is that back in the day when that saying came to be - the baby was the last in the wash tub to take the yearly bath and it was as dirty as the bathwater.

Let me also use Scripture for comparison. Jesus said that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit and a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf [spoken through Paul]. All that leads me to see that what Jeremiah says is true: Man who trusts in man is cursed. Don't take my word for it, prove everything for yourself. You do not need teachers - they will only confuse you because they can and will lead you to information that is agenda driven and is not pure.

Done on my Soapbox Sorry - you pushed my buttons 15274
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01-02-2009, 10:31 AM
Post: #29
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
There were specific reasons that the KJV translators chose what they did. And they had all the manuscripts that are present today, maybe even the better ones. One of the translators read the Bible in Hebrew by the age of six! They regularly debated in Latin and Greek and approximately 90 percent of the KJV NT is Tyndale's. Tyndale knew some different languages so fluently that you would think he was from Italy, Israel, France, Britain, Spain, and Greece! Don't question their choices; without them you wouldn't have a Bible to quote from, as Wycliffe, Tyndale, and the KJV Translators brought it to the common folk. I'm not a KJV only person, but it's most likely the best English translation.

Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
IT IS HARD FOR THEE TO KICK AGAINST THE PRICKS.


Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
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01-02-2009, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2009 10:45 AM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #30
RE: Translational Inconsistencies
Welcome to the forum DarkGlass1312 553

glad to see you got stuck in posting and by the looks of it,you will be bringing interesting things to our forum .So glad to have you here.10167

Quote:One of the translators read the Bible in Hebrew by the age of six! They regularly debated in Latin and Greek and approximately 90 percent of the KJV NT is Tyndale's. Tyndale knew some different languages so fluently that you would think he was from Italy, Israel, France, Britain, Spain, and Greece!

Now those are what I call scholars Th_smiley_work

Many in the HR movement make light of real scholarship which I think is tragic.

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