Translational Inconsistencies

[Vic]

(01-02-2009 10:31 AM)DarkGlass1312 Wrote:  There were specific reasons that the KJV translators chose what they did. And they had all the manuscripts that are present today, maybe even the better ones. One of the translators read the Bible in Hebrew by the age of six! They regularly debated in Latin and Greek and approximately 90 percent of the KJV NT is Tyndale's. Tyndale knew some different languages so fluently that you would think he was from Italy, Israel, France, Britain, Spain, and Greece! Don't question their choices; without them you wouldn't have a Bible to quote from, as Wycliffe, Tyndale, and the KJV Translators brought it to the common folk. I'm not a KJV only person, but it's most likely the best English translation.

Well said, DarkGlass. I believe also KJV is the best English version and am also not KJV only.

Unfortunately, there are those who like to assault the idea that KJV is a good version, and eliminate the Greek manuscripts to fit their own agenda, and with Nomad Man aka Jeff Benner and his mechanical translation, and many others, they do so to present their opinion as "God's word".

And in the HR movements, we see opinion and poor scholarship flaunted as truth to the detriment of all who don't know or understand the Word of God and willingly follow the heresies and error.

to the forum. I hope you enjoy the discussions and fellowship. Glad to see you jumped write in.

Consider dropping into the Introduce Yourself thread so other members can greet you.

[sheep wrecked]

(12-27-2008 06:03 PM)Vic Wrote:  Nomad Man, you only claim some knowledge in Biblical Hebrew, but you know neither Greek or aramaic/syriac ..how do you suppose you can translate passages and sources that are comprised of those languages....osmosis...direct and new revelation...which means all other translations become null and void if you are getting new and direct revelation?

If you are not making that claim and are just guessing a best guess scenario....by whose authority are you changing the Word of God? What makes you an expert when you obviously are not expert in Hebrew and have no knowledge of the other needed languages?

Quote: Georgetown Wesleyan University of the Americas and is based in Florida. There website is http://www.gwua.net. I have been a professor with them for almost a year.

I was more than a little troubled when I accessed the gwua's application for admission and found this paragraph.

Quote: http://www.gwua.net/application_for_admission.pdf.
Georgetown Wesleyan University of the AmericasFreeport, Grand BahamasAPPLICATION FOR ADMISSION

"Georgetown Wesleyan University is a member of the Accrediting Commission International (ACI) and the International Association of Biblical Counselors. ACI is the world’s largest non-government-related accrediting association. All credits are transferable to the other 321 schools which are members of ACI. No guarantee is implied or promised for transferal of credit to any government agencies or non-ACI schools. Normally, the receiving institutions or agencies determine which courses they will accept on a case-by-case basis.

While I have shown in articles information concerning ACI--I thought you might appreciate some background from another source-- http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm3.html Great Moments in Accreditation: The Case of IAC, ACI, and The Three Stooges by John Bear

Since the pages concerning your being "adjunct professor" are unavailable on the gwua website, Jeff, we see on your own website some of your background > http://www.mechanical-translation.org/ > http://www.mechanical-translation.org/ab...lator.html

Quote: MT Home > About > The Translator
"...Because of the inconsistent manner in which the Bible has been translated, improper interpretations have been made. ...

I asked myself, "If one wishes to do a serious study of the Bible, how is one to sort through this conglomeration of word translations?" I realized that there was only one answer to this question, I needed to learn the original language for myself so that I did not have to rely on the translators opinions of what the text meant. "

Excellent point Jeff!!-- so we know we don't have to consider you as a translator to be listened to, right? Since it is merely your opinion about the words used versus the many involved in the translation of for example -the KJV which you use as an example of mistranslation?

Quote:"My first introduction to Hebrew came through a "Learn the Hebrew alphabet" course that was being offered at a local synagogue. Through this course, I came to acquire a deep interest in the Hebrew language and continued my studies in learning this fascinating language. "

So was this a course in Modern Hebrew or Biblical Hebrew, Jeff?

Quote:"In 1999 my wife and I created the "Ancient Hebrew Research Center" as a means of teaching the Ancient Hebrew alphabet, language and culture of the Bible. With the vast amount information that I had collected, sifted through, and compiled on the original Hebrew language of the Bible, I published my first major work in the Ancient Hebrew language in 2005, the "Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible."

With the completion of the Lexicon, it was decided that a new translation of the Hebrew Bible was needed which used the Lexicon as its foundation. Work then began on the "Mechanical Translation of the Book of Genesis" which was published in 2007. "

So you made your very own Lexicon-different than any scholar fluent in Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic and now developed your own translation based on that Lexicon---fascinating....

Umm.. Jeff, not to put down your accomplishments, but your resume is all based on your own activities, own website, own cd's, own books, newsletter, seminars, etc. Other than the claim of a "Adjunct Professor - Georgetown Wesleyan University of the Americas (2008 to present) " which you stated has only been for this past year--and quite frankly---I would be inclined to remove that "professorship" from your resume--as it surely is not a "normal" University or Bible college and not accredited by a recognised accreditation agency--no matter how ACI presents themselves.

I hate to point out about NG and your info to them--but they take anything that is new or different, so to speak...and the "Honorary Doctor of Ministry degree in Hebrew Language Studies, Georgetown Wesleyan University of the Americas (2008)" --simply means they gave you something you didn't earn by scholarly/formal education methods, and which they don't offer in Biblical languages, from what I can ascertain. Again, their endorsement really is not a flag waving event...I would not be mentioning it myself.

The endorsement of accuracy of the Hebrew Language if wanted, should come from actual scholars of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek---since those are the languages necessary to translate the Word of God. But then, you don't have all those qualifications do you? :shameonyou:

I found it interesting that floating on the net recently, Michael Rood is promoting Jeff Benner's Book "His Name is One". I suppose it's not surprising that one non-scholar would promote another non-scholar

Here is what Michael has to say about Benner's book:

Quote:A Rood Awakening! featured NEW product
Another Great Book by Jeff Benner to add to your resources!

His Name is One
by Jeff Benner


When we read an English translation of the Bible we define the word within it according to our modern vocabulary, allowing our culture and language to influence how we read and interpret the Bible. The Bible was written by ancient Hebrews, whose culture and language was very different from our own and must be read and interpreted through their eyes. When we define the names of God using our culture and language, we lose the Hebraic meanings behind the original Hebrew names of God. Consequently, the true nature and character of God is hidden behind the veil of time and culture. By understanding the various names of God through the vocabulary and language of the ancient Hebrews, the nature and character of God is revealed to us in a new light. The prophet Zechariah described the character of God with the words "sh'mo ehhad" translated as, His Name is One. (Zechariah 14:9) This phrase beautifully describes the character of God from a Hebraic perspective that is lost to us through translation and unfamiliarity with ancient Hebrew culture.

122 page paperback

Suggested Donation: $20.00

My question to Mr Rood would be, where in the Bible does it state that one is influenced by culture and language to understand God's Word? One does not have to search deep to find that the Holy Spirit reveals wisdom and truth in the written Word, not by ethnicity or language. In other words, it does not matter if one is Greek, American, French, Chinese or African - if one reads God's Word is his/her own language, the Holy Spirit will give understanding.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But to them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brothers, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glories, let him glory in the Lord.

Personally, I think it's pretty pathetic that one has to have a Hebrew mind set in order to understand the "Oneness" of God. It is not "lost" to any true child of God.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Also, please note, Paul did not state that one has to know the "true name of God" to recognize who He is. We call Him Father. Absolutely amazing

Of course Michael Rood is an alleged scholar in his own mind. There is a ton of information in several articles at the Seek God website - it will become quite clear the false teacher that he is, and what he represents ...... it's not pretty

http://www.seekgod.ca/roodbreakup.htm

[strefanash]

QUOTE:

My question to Mr Rood would be, where in the Bible does it state that one is influenced by culture and language to understand God's Word? One does not have to search deep to find that the Holy Spirit reveals wisdom and truth in the written Word, not by ethnicity or language. In other words, it does not matter if one is Greek, American, French, Chinese or African - if one reads God's Word is his/her own language, etc etc

Stref:

may I suggest that the understanding of ANY document written in another language requires some knowledge of that language and culture to understand it. After all to the modern english speaker the statement "you say that I am" (as Jesus answered when asked if he was the Son of God) is evasive, an equivocation. But I am lead to believe that in Ancient Hebrew Culture that "you say" was a clear, albeit polite, statement of YES.

If you agree with this you did not get this from the words. someone had to have told you what the idiom meant. It certainly never made sense to me that the Pharisees went berserk when Jesus answered "you say that I am" the firest time i came across this passage. And therefore some scholarly elucidation as to the idioms of an ancient language was required

another example: when someome in the time of Abraham took an oath it was customary to put ones hand up under the thigh of the person to whom you were making that oath. Genesis 24:2 and verse 9.

To modern readers such is indecent assault at worst or outright meaningless, unless explained in the light of Ancient Near East culture

I submit that Rood and company have flagrantly abused this principle, pushing it far too far. But to react so far as to deny it altogether is to miss the point as to how language words.

Have you studied a foreign language, or spoken to foreigners grappling with english as a second language? they get the words right, often enough, but get hilarious results from not grasping the idioms of "the english as she is spoke".

Put it this way. are you americans familiar with the Australian and New Zealand idiom "to spit the dummy"?

I will explain if you dont, but if you have to ask my point is established, yet we are all english speakers here, how much harder is it when the language is ancient or even, as in koine greek, dead?

The Bible is not written in the measured style of scholars and mathematicians, and is soaked in idiom. But , as always, abusus non tollit usum (no abuse of the principle invalidates it)

[Vic]

My response:

1Jn 2:26-27
(26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
(27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Jn 2:20-21
(20) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
(21) I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Now I have been looking in the Scriptures and I cannot find a one that says we will be unable to understand the said Scriptures if we don't understand it with a Hebraic mindset; or research the "idioms". In fact. Since the Scriptures including the NT were inspired by God, I would be so bold as to suggest that to think one has to have special teaching or "mindset" other than the following, is to renounce the Truth of them.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I didn't say that. God did. And He also inspired the writers to say this:

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

If we can't understand or know it, we cannot wield it---it is spiritually discerned.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

How odd, don't you think, that it doesn't say it is done with a Hebraic mindset.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Something must be wrong.

It doesn't say get a hebraic mindset or anything similar.

Oh wait!

That's what they want us to think.

[sheep wrecked]

(01-25-2009 03:22 AM)strefanash Wrote:  may I suggest that the understanding of ANY document written in another language requires some knowledge of that language and culture to understand it. After all to the modern english speaker the statement "you say that I am" (as Jesus answered when asked if he was the Son of God) is evasive, an equivocation. But I am lead to believe that in Ancient Hebrew Culture that "you say" was a clear, albeit polite, statement of YES.

If you agree with this you did not get this from the words. someone had to have told you what the idiom meant. It certainly never made sense to me that the Pharisees went berserk when Jesus answered "you say that I am" the firest time i came across this passage. And therefore some scholarly elucidation as to the idioms of an ancient language was required

The Bible is for all people for all time for all language groups. It does not take a Hebrew doctorate to understand God's Word if it did, then God would be playing favorites

Hmmmm - I don't see the issue with "You say that I am" - it's obvious that Jesus is answering in the affirmative, because of the witness of the Gospels - which also shows why the Pharisees wanted to kill Him.

Joh 8:40 But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, you believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinces me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God hears God's words: you therefore hear them not, because you are not of God.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said to him, Say we not well that you are a Samaritan, and have a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honor my Father, and you do dishonor me.
Joh 8:50 And I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeks and judges.
Joh 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews to him, Now we know that you have a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and you say, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom make you yourself?
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me; of whom you say, that he is your God:
Joh 8:55 Yet you have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like to you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews to him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God.

Quote:another example: when someome in the time of Abraham took an oath it was customary to put ones hand up under the thigh of the person to whom you were making that oath. Genesis 24:2 and verse 9.

To modern readers such is indecent assault at worst or outright meaningless, unless explained in the light of Ancient Near East culture

I don't think one needs to know Ancient Near East culture to understand that it was part of an ancient rite at one time. I am not sure why this is important to know the culture - more like majoring on the minors, in my opinion. It would be like comparing men today who when a fellow teammate get congratulated for doing some great thing during a game and the others wack him on the butt it's a guy thing ..........

Quote:I submit that Rood and company have flagrantly abused this principle, pushing it far too far. But to react so far as to deny it altogether is to miss the point as to how language words.

Have you studied a foreign language, or spoken to foreigners grappling with english as a second language? they get the words right, often enough, but get hilarious results from not grasping the idioms of "the english as she is spoke".

The issue is not understanding culture. The issue is that Hebrew Roots teaches that one CANNOT understand ANY of Scripture without a Hebraic Mind set. Mr Rood excels in pushing the fact that Christians are pagans with a western Greek mindset that have no clue what the Bible "really" says. They have been misled and are still in "Babylon" with their pagan practices and their pagan Messiah [Jesus Christ]

Obviously, the translators of the Bible did not have a problem translating from Hebrew and Greek into English so that one could understand the Bible and know God and Jesus Christ. I think that is the most important factor - not that there are "idioms" that people don't "get". If one is that curious, there are plenty of sources to research

When Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to enter Heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle - I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out, it's darn near impossible for both

Quote:Put it this way. are you americans familiar with the Australian and New Zealand idiom "to spit the dummy"?

I will explain if you dont, but if you have to ask my point is established, yet we are all english speakers here, how much harder is it when the language is ancient or even, as in koine greek, dead?

I am not real sure of your point. The Greek was translated into English by credentialed Greek scholars who knew English. Are you saying that it's too hard for God to make sure we have an accurate translation now in spite of language differences?

Quote:The Bible is not written in the measured style of scholars and mathematicians, and is soaked in idiom. But , as always, abusus non tollit usum (no abuse of the principle invalidates it)

I don't see the problem. Maybe I am just blonde But God promised to preserve His Word. Paul stated that all Scripture was God-breathed ....

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works.

I trust that the translation I read is God's Holy Inspired Word to me and when I read it, His Holy Spirit reveals His truths to me. Simple .........

[Emjesown]

The best bible translator is the Holy Spirit.
He was there when the apostles wrote the bible, he was there when they translated it in greek, and through history i believe that He was there while the bible was translated in supervision of Him who was THE WORD. He invented langauges,,,( sort of)
But whatever language you speak, read........
its the Holy Spirit who translate it back to God's language.....
directly to hart and soul and mind.

I do find it odd, that the early churchfathers, got the weird idea's to make theyre doctrine's on. But then again, there where few people who spoke greek and latin, so no one to reprove them.
It was even forbidden to read the bible yourself for a long time, the church told you what was in it and how to aply.

Now in our days, we have somany translations, so many languages......
i am happy with that, we can compare and study from many different ones. But eeven when you can read greek and/or hebrew, we still need His Holy Spirit to explain, without Him we understand squad, even with a "hebrew mindset" and despite a "greek mindset"(whatever they mean by that)


EMJE

[Vic]

(01-26-2009 04:34 AM)Emjesown Wrote:  The best bible translator is the Holy Spirit.
....But whatever language you speak, read........
its the Holy Spirit who translate it back to God's language.....
directly to hart and soul and mind.

......, we still need His Holy Spirit to explain, without Him we understand squad, even with a "hebrew mindset" and despite a "greek mindset"(whatever they mean by that)
EMJE

Good thoughts Emje.

Without Christ, without understanding given by the Holy Spirit, we can never comprehend what is in God's Word. That is why so many are trying to sell there opinions as Scriptural truth--because they don't have the understanding that comes from Him. It is amazing how many toddle after self appointed leaders and teachers, who clearly have pathetic scholarship. I don't mean credentialed. I mean sorry and pathetic scholarship.

They should be ignored :16970: --like Jeff Benner's aka Nomadman's mechanical translation discussed in this thread --it is so ridiculous and shameful

Forgotten is the warning about changing or adding to or subtracting from the Word of God. But at some point, God will deal with those that do. :tomatoes:

BTW Emje, I sent you a PM, did you see that? If not--there should be a banner saying you have a private message at the top of the threads. Just click on the hotlink.

[Emjesown]

Yep i got your message )lol) i was amazed...........
but a "silence is golden"hehehe

On the part of translations and own understanding of the word
i agree....God is more then able to teach us.....he don t need mechanical hebrew/dictionairy.

Pffff i have to share something on words in the bible.
On a forum here is a young man ( he might be a nice man i dunno), but what he writes?
I shall spare you the whole story, but......

this week he claimed "sun stands for Jesus and moon for satan.
Because the form of the moon changes allthe time and satan can do that to ( or someting like it)
So i asked where is that in the bible....and mentioned the dream of joseph, sum moon en 12 stars.
As prove satan can t be identified as moon etc.

He danced around the bush and i asked: where do you study, from whom do you have bible study.
Just so i could try to understand his thoughts on everything.
Today i got an ugly reaction that i am not nice, arrogant and same as ****( here he calls aname from someone i don t know very well)
So i told him ( slightly cynical i admit)
When someone don t know an answer or don t know what he is talking about he changes the topic......
And he said i was unbiblical ....oh boy
well to make along story short
On his site you will find the most thinkeble nonsence
and i dont attack him but what he writes.
So anyway i am so agitated now.......
there are people who make me so eh so cynical and sarcastic.....
i really have to restrraun myself from answering flat out bold and ugly.....
wich i can t do because that is not who i am.

Okay i vented ........i don t need an answer on this story neccesarily

EMJE

[Vic]

(01-27-2009 01:45 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  Yep i got your message )lol) i was amazed...........
but a "silence is golden"hehehe

...Pffff i have to share something on words in the bible.
On a forum here is a young man ( he might be a nice man i dunno), but what he writes?
I shall spare you the whole story, but......

this week he claimed "sun stands for Jesus and moon for satan.
Because the form of the moon changes allthe time and satan can do that to ( or someting like it)
So i asked where is that in the bible....and mentioned the dream of joseph, sum moon en 12 stars.
As prove satan can t be identified as moon etc.

He danced around the bush and i asked: where do you study, from whom do you have bible study....Okay i vented ........i don t need an answer on this story neccesarily

EMJE

Hey Emje,

Thanks for sharing. And that guys teaching-if it can be called that

It's hard not to get upset sometimes, but that's why we are called to use the Sword of the Spirit--which is the Word of God. And that can do the things we cannot.

I have seen it so many times that people who cannot defend their position as Scriptural, attack the person who exposes it. And they can be the most nasty characters and make the most false and ridiculous accusations.
But that's when we need to stand firm and wield the Truth as we are led.

And Emje, you can vent anytime you like.

[Princess of Heaven]

HI all, long time no see ....

i was doing some research on the early church fathers and first Bibles etc,

i would like some input on Wycliffe and if this is a good version, if so why? if not why? thank you in advance for your input...