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sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 03-19-2010 02:24 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(03-19-2010 12:43 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: Sheesh, I wouldn't have posted this (bleep) thread had I known it would degenerate into a flame war with blasphemy and a pukeload of insults aimed at my friends.

Don't sweat it, girl! Popcorn

This is mild compared to what we have dealt with before and probably will again Biggrin

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 03-19-2010 02:56 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(03-19-2010 01:52 AM)Ben Masada Wrote: sheep:
Interesting that in spite of the OT Scriptures provided, you have nothing to say but throw up the old smoke screen of Greek mythology. As a Christian, it is humorous at best.

Ben:
Sorry, but there is no precedence in Judaism of God having a son the way the NT depicts Jesus. I think if Jesus was around when Paul spread the news, this would have thought twice.

Of course there is no precedence in Judaism that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - Judaism denies Him, and It's NOT THE SAME RELIGION. I think you have a problem with comprehension. Jesus said He was God - that is what the NT states - this is CHRISTIANITY, not Judaism.

Quote:Hos 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
Hos 4:2 By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood.
Hos 4:3 Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.
Hos 4:4 Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest.
Hos 4:5 Therefore shalt thou fall in the day, and the prophet also shall fall with thee in the night, and I will destroy thy mother.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

[b]The principle is the same: That for lack of knowledge people perish.

The principle is not the same at all. This is what you stated: "The best you have is faith; and where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)" Knowledge ended because there was no faith in God aka Israel rejected and rebelled against God.

Quote:sheep:
The NT is not for people who don't believe in Jesus Christ. How many times need we reiterate that Christianity and Judaism are TWO [u]DIFFERENT BELIEF SYSTEMS?

Ben:
I agree with you, but Christianity is using a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism before the world.[/quote]

Why should you care? Jesus means nothing to you and He was not a religious Jew who did NOT practice Judaism.

Quote:sheep:
The Scriptures came by inspiration the Holy Spirit - or don't you believe that? The Jewish people were the vehicle that God used, but He also used non-Jews in the OT as well to speak for Him, so please don't keep pushing the "Jewish mind set" canard.

Ben:
If the Jewish People were only the vehicle to arrive with whatever you mean, does it mean Paul was right to say that they were shadows of things to come? (Col. 2:17) This is Replacement Theology.
[/quote]

Again, you missed the main point > the inspiration of Scripture.

Paul never stated that the Jewish people were a shadow of things to come. He was speaking of the sacrificial system, the feasts, new moons, food laws, etc.

The NT does not teach replacement theology. We have gone over this in other posts. But you do not care what the truth is, except to keep pushing your stuff over and over again.

This topic is now closed to you 6781

sheep wrecked · 03-19-2010, 03:03 PM

(03-19-2010 12:13 PM)Ben Masada Wrote: I am not alone in the understanding of the collective Messiah. We are still in the minority but of learned Jews like Rashi, Maimonies and a many others Jewish Scholars. Those who still believe in an individual Messiah are of the common Jew.

To refresh your memory, here are INDIVIDUAL Jewish messiahs CE:

Theudas (44-46)
Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt
Moses of Crete (5th century)
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.
David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.

Mary · 03-19-2010, 04:35 PM

(03-18-2010 08:45 AM)Ben Masada Wrote:
(03-18-2010 05:40 AM)Mary Wrote: "The reason is that you are too literal with prophetic allegories."

hahaha ROFL! No wonder your arguments don't make sense. Really, there can be as many interpretations of allegories as there are individuals.
----------------

In that case, would you agree with me that, since we are speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures, precedence should be given to Jewish interpretations? ... or perhaps that has been taken by Christianity too?
Ben

No, I would not agree. When reading the OT and the NT the "rule" is 'if the plain text makes sense, seek no other sense'. We do not need mysticism to understand God's Word. He is not the "author of confusion".

It's a pity in a way that the topic is closed to you now because I'm quite interested in what you do with your particular "learned" interpretation of Isaiah when you read on in the OT to Malachi?

I am not knowledgeable about Judaism as are some of the posters here. I read daily, have read over and over again, the Scriptures as gifted to us by God, known to me as the Bible, composed of the OT and the NT. It is a pity to me that in criticizing and attacking the NT you have missed something, which is Everything. Look at John chapter 1:
vs 40 - 45
One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

These were Jewish men, who, from their knowledge of the Scriptures recognised Jesus as the messiah. You also seemed to have missed that before his conversion, Paul was Saul, a very learned Jewish man, a very zealous and devout Jewish man. It seems strange to me that you can leap to attribute an almost "conspiracy theory/mindset" of a "Greek mythology" interpretation of Jesus to Paul.

So Ben, I extend a hand to you, in grace and peace - we have found Him.
Come and see.

Ben Masada · (This post was last modified: 03-20-2010 03:33 AM by Ben Masada.)

(03-19-2010 12:26 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:I am not alone in the understanding of the collective Messiah. We are still in the minority but of learned Jews like Rashi, Maimonies and a many others Jewish Scholars. Those who still believe in an individual Messiah are of the common Jew.

The idea that the Messiah is Israel I am familiar with.The one I am asking for sources on is the idea that Israel is the servant (in Isaiah 53) and that Judah are the people.If I'm understanding that correctly.

----------------

Rose, Isaiah was the Prophet from Judah in the South, chosen to prophesy against Israel in the North. (Isa. 6:8) Of these two peoples, he would represent the one of Judah.

At that time, the two-house Theology still existed: Israel or Messiah ben Joseph and Judah or Messiah ben David. Since God had promised David that a Tribe would stay in Jerusalem as a lamp forever for the sake of David, (I Kings 11:36) God would have to reject Israel and confirm Judah
according to Psalm 78:67-69. This was redemption. Israel had to redeem Judah by being taken away for the sins of "many." The sins of Judah. This is understood in Isaiah 9:8 when the Lord had sent word against Judah and it fell upon Israel instead.

Now, how did Israel's redemption of Judah occur? Have you ever read about the Scapegoat, whose sins of the People would be laid upon its head and the goat sent to the desert? In Israel, the desert is to the East, where Assyria and Babylon are located. The sins of Judah were laid upon Israel, and Israel was sent to the East (desert) forever, where it disappeared among the Gentiles. So, Israel was the scapegoat. The Suffering Servant was gone. What stayed behind was Judah, the Triumphant Servant.

In the sacrifice of Israel, the Suffering Servant Judah found life. Now, in the life of Judah, as the Triumphant Servant, the world, all the Gentiles find survival. That's what Jesus meant by salvation being from the Jews. (John 4:22)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that He would never allow another universal catastrophe to hit Mankind again as a whole. In His promise God, connected the guarantee with the well-functioning of the natural laws. (Gen. 8:21,22) Jeremiah must have read the terms of God's promise
and confirmed that as long as Israel (Judah) exists as a people before the Lord forever, the natural laws will function properly. It means that Judah (the Jewish People) just for existing as a People before the Lord forever, Mankind is guaranteed to survival without another universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood or anything of the like. Jeremiah's understanding of Genesis 8:21,22 is in Jeremiah 31:35,36.

I hope I have made myself a little better understood this time.
Ben

Morning_Song · 03-20-2010, 03:43 AM

(03-19-2010 02:54 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [quote='Ben Masada'

This topic is now closed to you[/b][/color]

I hope you do not mind explaining to me why it is you keep telling this poster that the topics are closed to them personally. Is it because you are afraid to lose something by hearing them out? Their points of view seem relevant enough. Popcorn

Ben Masada · (This post was last modified: 03-20-2010 04:03 AM by Ben Masada.)

(03-19-2010 03:03 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(03-19-2010 12:13 PM)Ben Masada Wrote: I am not alone in the understanding of the collective Messiah. We are still in the minority but of learned Jews like Rashi, Maimonies and a many others Jewish Scholars. Those who still believe in an individual Messiah are of the common Jew.

To refresh your memory, here are INDIVIDUAL Jewish messiahs CE:

Theudas (44-46)
Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt
Moses of Crete (5th century)
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.
David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.

--------------

Hey sheepwreck, I agree with you 100 percent, but they are of the Jewish common people. Fundamentalists who are more interested in what their imaginations can produce than in the truth and commonsense.

The idea of an individual Messiah makes no sense. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. Being the Messiah collective in the People of Israel, Mankind will have a living Messiah forever to guarantee that a universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood will never happen again. God's promise was connected with the well-functioning of the natural laws in Genesis 8:21,22 and understood so by Jeremiah. (Jer. 31:35,6)

I loved the above list of fake messiahs. Thanks.
Ben

(03-19-2010 04:35 PM)Mary Wrote:
(03-18-2010 08:45 AM)Ben Masada Wrote:
(03-18-2010 05:40 AM)Mary Wrote: "The reason is that you are too literal with prophetic allegories."

hahaha ROFL! No wonder your arguments don't make sense. Really, there can be as many interpretations of allegories as there are individuals.
----------------

In that case, would you agree with me that, since we are speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures, precedence should be given to Jewish interpretations? ... or perhaps that has been taken by Christianity too?
Ben

No, I would not agree. When reading the OT and the NT the "rule" is 'if the plain text makes sense, seek no other sense'. We do not need mysticism to understand God's Word. He is not the "author of confusion".

It's a pity in a way that the topic is closed to you now because I'm quite interested in what you do with your particular "learned" interpretation of Isaiah when you read on in the OT to Malachi?

I am not knowledgeable about Judaism as are some of the posters here. I read daily, have read over and over again, the Scriptures as gifted to us by God, known to me as the Bible, composed of the OT and the NT. It is a pity to me that in criticizing and attacking the NT you have missed something, which is Everything. Look at John chapter 1:
vs 40 - 45
One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

These were Jewish men, who, from their knowledge of the Scriptures recognised Jesus as the messiah. You also seemed to have missed that before his conversion, Paul was Saul, a very learned Jewish man, a very zealous and devout Jewish man. It seems strange to me that you can leap to attribute an almost "conspiracy theory/mindset" of a "Greek mythology" interpretation of Jesus to Paul.

So Ben, I extend a hand to you, in grace and peace - we have found Him.
Come and see.

----------------------

Mary, to claim that Jesus' apostles acknowleded the Messiah in Jesus, you are digging a new contradiction in the NT. The word Messiah in Greek means Christ. And only about 30 years after Jesus had been gone, Christians were called Christians for the first time.

It was in Antioch in the synagogue of the Nazarenes Barnabas was taking care of. Since he had been a friend of Paul's since youth, he went after him in Tarsus and invited him over to help with the work. Paul accepted the invitation and, after a whole year preaching that Jesus was Christ, the disciples started being called Christians. [Acts 11:26) It means that they were not called Christians before. And they were not called Christians because Jesus had never been preached as Christ. Now, you know that Paul was the author of the idea.
Ben

Mary · 03-20-2010, 08:04 AM

"And they were not called Christians because Jesus had never been preached as Christ"

Ben, I'm sure you are a very learned man, but I think you must have forgotten to read through the first 10 chapters of Acts. Even my 7 year old, who has only recently become a confident reader would know that Jesus was being preached as Christ prior to Saul and Barnabas getting together.
The following verse is just one example:

Acts 5 vs 42: And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

I don't think that I am "digging a new contradiction in the NT" but I can see you are trying to plant one. Jesus was recognised as the Messiah - Christ from the time he began his ministry. He was preached as Christ after his resurrection. His followers were called disciples, saints, the church, and then from Antioch Christians. The term did not replace or change the former terms. I think the term was and is one of convenience for an ever increasing group of believers. I can't really see any logic or substance in your argument and it is certainly not substantiated by the scriptures.

What are you meaning to convey by this statement, Ben? "Since he had been a friend of Paul's since youth, he went after him in Tarsus and invited him over to help with the work. "

At first it seemed an irrelevant point to raise, and particularly since a friendship from youth is not mentioned in the Scripture:

Acts11:19 - 26
"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

It certainly is not relevant if they were friends from youth, or God would have put it in, but it is relevant to your goals which I believe are to create a sense of conspiracy and dubious purpose around Paul, and thereby cast doubt on Jesus Christ.

Be careful Ben. God is not mocked.
John ch 1 vs 39 and 46 : ..."Come and see."

Rose of Shushan · 03-20-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:Rose, Isaiah was the Prophet from Judah in the South, chosen to prophesy against Israel in the North. (Isa. 6:8) Of these two peoples, he would represent the one of Judah.

From chapters 40 to 59 it is very clear that Isaiah speaks to the exiles in Babylon, Ben.
The exiles were from Judah although in reality they consisted of Judah and also all those of the other tribes that had joined themselves to Judah prior .

Isa 46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

Quote:At that time, the two-house Theology still existed: Israel or Messiah ben Joseph and Judah or Messiah ben David. Since God had promised David that a Tribe would stay in Jerusalem as a lamp forever for the sake of David, (I Kings 11:36) God would have to reject Israel and confirm Judah
according to Psalm 78:67-69. This was redemption. Israel had to redeem Judah by being taken away for the sins of "many." The sins of Judah. This is understood in Isaiah 9:8 when the Lord had sent word against Judah and it fell upon Israel instead.

Israel couldn’t redeem Judah ,she needed redemption herself .And a very important thing, you keep separating Israel and Judah and don’t seem to realize that when God addresses Israel after the Assyrian deportation he means the people as a whole. When he refers to them separately then we can assume he is speaking of one or the other,in the context of the two kingdoms but many times God uses the term to address the people as a whole.
Your doctrines are so hard to understand because you seem to hold on to your particular made up variation of two house theology. Israel cannot redeem anyone look at these verses

Isa 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ***** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
Isa 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Isa 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Isa 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Quote:Now, how did Israel's redemption of Judah occur? Have you ever read about the Scapegoat, whose sins of the People would be laid upon its head and the goat sent to the desert? In Israel, the desert is to the East, where Assyria and Babylon are located. The sins of Judah were laid upon Israel, and Israel was sent to the East (desert) forever, where it disappeared among the Gentiles. So, Israel was the scapegoat. The Suffering Servant was gone. What stayed behind was Judah, the Triumphant Servant.

Hmm now I am almost positive you are an exmessianic.You seem to be mixing up Christian concepts in there.Read through the whole book of Isaiah .When God speaks to the exiles in Babylon he calls them Israel.God never said he would totally destroy Israel but that only a remnant would return or remain.

Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Isa 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Isa 43:22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.
Isa 43:23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
Isa 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Isa 43:26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
Isa 43:27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
Isa 43:28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Isa 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Very clear there that it is God that blots out Israel's transgressions. He redeems Israel…Israel does not redeem herself, neither does Judah redeem Israel, nor does Israel redeem Judah. Lets go to the next chapter 45 ,where God is speaking to Cyrus so the context is clear that we are talking about the time when Israel(ie Judah and all those from Israel who had joined themselves to Judah prior) is in exile in Babylon.

Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
Isa 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

God is still calling His people (both Judah and the rest of the tribes that were left )Israel.As we see in

Isa 46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

In that chapter God also says

Isa 46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

God clearly says He will place salvation FOR Israel in Zion.
He doesn’t say its Judah and indeed it cannot be Judah since God is addressing Judah and the rest of the people as Israel,a collective whole.

Isa 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
Isa 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

In the book of Jeremiah God promises the people that they will become one nation a few times and since after the return from Babylon they are one people ,Israel, again to this day.

Quote:In the sacrifice of Israel, the Suffering Servant Judah found life. Now, in the life of Judah, as the Triumphant Servant, the world, all the Gentiles find survival. That's what Jesus meant by salvation being from the Jews. (John 4:22)

So you use the NT and try to justify Jesus's words .Which side of the fence are you on Ben? Are you believing Jesus words and thus trying to explain what he meant when he said salvation is of the jews.Are you one of those messianics that believe Jesus but not Paul?
Anyway I am trying to understand how you are arriving at the above conclusion. When exactly did this supposed sacrifice of Israel happen?At what point in history .I am assuming you mean its past since you say that now in the life of Judah ..

Quote:After the Flood, God promised Noah that He would never allow another universal catastrophe to hit Mankind again as a whole. In His promise God, connected the guarantee with the well-functioning of the natural laws. (Gen. 8:21,22) Jeremiah must have read the terms of God's promise
and confirmed that as long as Israel (Judah) exists as a people before the Lord forever, the natural laws will function properly. It means that Judah (the Jewish People) just for existing as a People before the Lord forever, Mankind is guaranteed to survival without another universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood or anything of the like. Jeremiah's understanding of Genesis 8:21,22 is in Jeremiah 31:35,36.

Ben lets look also to the book of Jeremiah and what God says to Judah there

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
Jer 3:19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
Jer 3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
Jer 3:23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
Jer 3:24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
Jer 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Judah there isn’t saving Israel,nor is Israel saving Judah, God is warning Judah that she too will suffer a similar fate to Israel if she doesn’t repent.I will await your answer as to when Israel obtained the salvation for Israel in order to continue.There is so much more I could write on this but this will do for now.

Ben Masada · 03-20-2010, 10:55 AM

(03-20-2010 08:04 AM)Mary Wrote: "And they were not called Christians because Jesus had never been preached as Christ"

Ben, I'm sure you are a very learned man, but I think you must have forgotten to read through the first 10 chapters of Acts. Even my 7 year old, who has only recently become a confident reader would know that Jesus was being preached as Christ prior to Saul and Barnabas getting together.
The following verse is just one example:

Acts 5 vs 42: And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

I don't think that I am "digging a new contradiction in the NT" but I can see you are trying to plant one. Jesus was recognised as the Messiah - Christ from the time he began his ministry. He was preached as Christ after his resurrection. His followers were called disciples, saints, the church, and then from Antioch Christians. The term did not replace or change the former terms. I think the term was and is one of convenience for an ever increasing group of believers. I can't really see any logic or substance in your argument and it is certainly not substantiated by the scriptures.

What are you meaning to convey by this statement, Ben? "Since he had been a friend of Paul's since youth, he went after him in Tarsus and invited him over to help with the work. "

At first it seemed an irrelevant point to raise, and particularly since a friendship from youth is not mentioned in the Scripture:

Acts11:19 - 26
"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

It certainly is not relevant if they were friends from youth, or God would have put it in, but it is relevant to your goals which I believe are to create a sense of conspiracy and dubious purpose around Paul, and thereby cast doubt on Jesus Christ.

Be careful Ben. God is not mocked.
John ch 1 vs 39 and 46 : ..."Come and see."

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When Paul visited Jerusalem after he returned from Damascus, the Nazarenes were afraid of him. Then, Barnabas, his old friend, took him in charge and intruduced him to the Apostles. (Acts 9:26-28)

Because of Barnabas, Paul was allowed free move in Jerusalem but he caused a havoc with his peculiar gospel, so much so that the local Jews wanted to arrest him. It was then that the brothers helped him run away back to Tarsus. (Act 9:29-31)

The Cause of the Nazarenes was growing fast in Antioch, when Barnabas was chosen to take care of the local Nazarene Synagogue. (Acts 11:19-26) Instead of going and do the work as he - Barnabas - had been assigned to from Jerusalem, he chose to go to Tarsus and invited Paul over to work with him. After a whole year Paul had overturned the synagogue of Antioch into a Christian church. (Acts 11:26) That's as simple as that.

Since then Christianity started overturning the Nazarene synagogues everywhere into Christian church. Paul was indeed that charismatic. If you check the quotations I put down, you will see that I am not making up anything.
Ben