How can you tell if somebody is HR/Messianic?

[Mary]

I recall a line from a hymn (sorry can't remember all of it) about the Bible: "...on the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

I want to thank Vic, Rose and Sheep for persisting with Ben, because anyone reading who may have been tempted to follow his line of thinking can see it revealed for what it is.

Ben, I suspect your "you're right, I'm wrong" may not be genuine, but I hope at some level it is - We have found Him.... the Messiah. Come and see.

[sheep wrecked]

(03-21-2010 03:54 PM)Mary Wrote:  I recall a line from a hymn (sorry can't remember all of it) about the Bible: "...on the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

I want to thank Vic, Rose and Sheep for persisting with Ben, because anyone reading who may have been tempted to follow his line of thinking can see it revealed for what it is.

Ben, I suspect your "you're right, I'm wrong" may not be genuine, but I hope at some level it is - We have found Him.... the Messiah. Come and see.

I suspect that at one time Ben was a Christian - or at least professed to be one. He seems to have some knowledge of the NT, so in one sense, he is not blind to the truth that it holds.

As with many others who have traveled the rut filled road of Hebrew Roots that leads to conversion to Judaism, Ben now denies Jesus Christ and hates the NT and Paul. He has turned into a counter missionary, believing he is Jewish and therefore has the right to discredit and renounce all that we hold holy concerning the New Covenant. It is sad, the lengths that the anti-mish go to to twist and destroy people's faith in Christ and in God's Word. We only thank God for the opportunity to refute the errors he has presented, and pray that others see the dangers and are not led astray.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[Ben Masada]

(03-21-2010 03:54 PM)Mary Wrote:  I recall a line from a hymn (sorry can't remember all of it) about the Bible: "...on the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

I want to thank Vic, Rose and Sheep for persisting with Ben, because anyone reading who may have been tempted to follow his line of thinking can see it revealed for what it is.

Ben, I suspect your "you're right, I'm wrong" may not be genuine, but I hope at some level it is - We have found Him.... the Messiah. Come and see.

-----------------

Now, what is taking you so long to share with me the Messiah you have found? But try a different method. The road to the heart of a Jew is not through emotions but through his mind. You have to use a little Logic if you are to succeed. For example, I don't see much Logic in an individual Messiah. Think! He is born, lives his span of life, and then dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? It doesn't make sense to me. I think the Messiah does not die. He lives forever. The Lord promised to David that Judah would stay as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) Then, if you read Jeremiah 31:35,36, you will see that as long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will never stop functioning properly. God had compared Israel with the natural laws. Then, last but not least, there is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we don't have to assume that the Messiah could be an individual. That's my Logic about the collective Messiah in the People of Israel. Which one is yours for an individual Messiah? I am all ears.

[Ben Masada]

(03-21-2010 03:25 PM)Vic Wrote:  [quote='Ben Masada' pid='5628' dateline='1269198493']

Quote:I am not sure how you arrived at your theory. Paul asked the High Priest for letters to go to the synagogues and request permission to arrest Christians. There is nothing in the text that says Christians were attending the synagogues.

Would you be so kind as to quote where it is written that Paul requested permission to arrest Christians? If you can't, just admit it without having to close the post to me.

[quote]Let me see if I can explain this. The Jews in the synagogues HATED the Christians. Why would they allow Christians in them?

Where did you get the idea that the Jews in the synagogues hated the Christians? Can you quote that one too? I doubt it.

Quote:You definitely have a very vivid imagination. Why do you continue to malign the NT? It is NOT for you. And it is obvious that you don't know it at all. You also hate Christ. Go to your "own" scriptures [OT] and resolve the contradictions there before crucifying the NT.

I don't malign the NT; I provoke questions that you guys get upset because you don't have the answers.

Quote:Ben, copyright LAWS REQUIRE you show what version you are quoting from. Otherwise it's violation of the LAW and sort of goes against Torah observance too. Provide the documentation and quotes correctly please. Or don't post.

Very well, here is what you want: I have two versions. One is the Catholic version of the New American Bible. Acts 9:1,2 says very clear that Paul went to the High Priest for letters to arrest those in the SYNAGOGUES of Damascus who were living according to the New Way. These were Nazarenes because Christians did not exist yet. Paul had not yet started preaching his peculiar gospel. The other version is the King James version of the Bible which brings the same word: SYNAGOGUES of Damascus. After you check it out, would you be noble enough to admit it and give me some credibility? Thanks.

[carl39]

The use of "Messiah" is usually an attempt to remain somewhat "neutral" until they can introduce their favorite sacred name And notice that they did not answer my question They only posted scriptures which have nothing to do with what I asked [/b][/color]
[/quote]

For me this is a great deal of interest. I will explain why.

My first name is Alfin. I was named after my father. To this day people cannot get it right. I will time after time correct people who say "Alvin" or "Alsin" or "Allen". One mistake can be understood as it is an unusual name, however it happens time and time again to the point I would rather not correspond to/with them. It is a matter of disrespect to me. Just as if I were replying to a post of Rose of Shushan's and keep referring as Rose of Shoeshine. Eventually a little disrespect would probably be felt. While I am not saying Jesus (Yeshua) is feeling disrespected, why can't messiah or his original hebrew name be used? Same with God?

I used to hear in church all the time "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." I thought great tell me his name, but they never did.

Note the following: Lord is a title with various meanings. It can denote a prince or a feudal superior (especially a feudal tenant who holds directly from the king, i.e., a baron). The title today is mostly used in connection with the peerage of the United Kingdom or its predecessor countries, although some users of the title do not themselves hold peerages, and use it 'by courtesy'. The title may also be used in conjunction with others to denote a superior holder of an otherwise generic title, in such combinations as "Lord Mayor" or "Lord Chief Justice". The title is primarily taken by men, while women will usually take the title 'lady'. However, this is not universal, as the Lord of Mann and female Lord Mayors are examples of women who are styled 'lord'.
In religious contexts Lord can also refer to various different gods or deities. The earliest uses of Lord in the English language in a religious context were by English Bible translators such as Bede. ( 672 / 673 – May 26, 735)

For me I believe the apostles, when evangelizing used his original hebrew name. All religions have a god. I myself can't help but wonder "how does God or Jesus (Yahweh or Yeshua) know we are praying or believing in them if we aren't calling out their proper name?" Example: I am an american and I speak English. I pray something like this: "Father God I give you praise for this day..........................etc........." You have someone else in another country speaking another dialect praying a similar prayer, how does either one know if they are even praying to the right god if they aren't using the proper name?

The point I am trying to make is we as humans make an effort when communicating with others to use their proper name. We don't just yell or say "hey you", so why don't we make the same effort when regarding God or Jesus (Yahweh or Yeshua)?

[Rose of Shushan]

Carl perhaps you miss the point that it is not enough to know about God for example knowing how His name was spelt exactly,as to actually knowing Him.
The same with Jesus.It may be interesting to know His hebrew name but what is important is that you know Him and not just about Him.
We can know the Bible of by heart but if we dont apply it whats the use?

Quote:I used to hear in church all the time "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." I thought great tell me his name, but they never did.

They meant Jesus, but if you didnt know that then why were you in a church.Who did God give for us to be salvation.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 62:10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

We are to believe on Him who was sent.Jesus,Iesous,Yasu,Jeshua,Joshua,Jehoshua all transliterations of the same name.What is the big deal with this.
You may have an issue with someone getting your name exactly right but I come from a culture where various languages are used and there is a lot of intermingling.And noone bats an eyelid when people change names with transliteration.Some family members would call my grandfather Juan and the others would call him John.Friends would call him Johnny.His son would call him Dad.But they were all the same person and noone would have sought to correct other family members or names saying they werent getting the name right.
I believe it is so with God.God looks at our heart and He knows when people are praying to Him,the God of the Bible andd not to some other non god.

[sheep wrecked]

(04-14-2010 04:25 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  We are to believe on Him who was sent.Jesus,Iesous,Yasu,Jeshua,Joshua,Jehoshua all transliterations of the same name.What is the big deal with this.
You may have an issue with someone getting your name exactly right but I come from a culture where various languages are used and there is a lot of intermingling.And noone bats an eyelid when people change names with transliteration.Some family members would call my grandfather Juan and the others would call him John.Friends would call him Johnny.His son would call him Dad.But they were all the same person and noone would have sought to correct other family members or names saying they werent getting the name right.
I believe it is so with God.God looks at our heart and He knows when people are praying to Him,the God of the Bible andd not to some other non god.

I totally agree with you! If one looks at the OT, the language changed from the writing of the Genesis until King David. We really do not know what name God was called because Hebrew did not exist before 900BC. We don't even know how to pronounce YHWH which is supposed to be His Name. There are many theories, but God is not a God of confusion., and there are so many pronunciations it's really quite silly If He meant for us to know a correct pronunciation, Jesus would have stated it clearly - He had plenty of time and would have inspired the writers to tell us. Instead, Jesus said, call Him Father. He called Him Father.

Also, I have many nic names and a "formal" name which hardly anyone uses. I prefer to the nic names and I really do not care what I am called - whatever you are comfy with. You see, it's not about knowing my name that is important, what I care about is if someone knows me.

In Hebrew, knowing someone's name is not knowing how to pronounce or spell it, but "the name" means that person's reputation, character, authority. If we "know" God, we know His "name", because we know who He is

[carl39]

(04-14-2010 08:35 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 04:25 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  We are to believe on Him who was sent.Jesus,Iesous,Yasu,Jeshua,Joshua,Jehoshua all transliterations of the same name.What is the big deal with this.
You may have an issue with someone getting your name exactly right but I come from a culture where various languages are used and there is a lot of intermingling.And noone bats an eyelid when people change names with transliteration.Some family members would call my grandfather Juan and the others would call him John.Friends would call him Johnny.His son would call him Dad.But they were all the same person and noone would have sought to correct other family members or names saying they werent getting the name right.
I believe it is so with God.God looks at our heart and He knows when people are praying to Him,the God of the Bible andd not to some other non god.

I totally agree with you! If one looks at the OT, the language changed from the writing of the Genesis until King David. We really do not know what name God was called because Hebrew did not exist before 900BC. We don't even know how to pronounce YHWH which is supposed to be His Name. There are many theories, but God is not a God of confusion., and there are so many pronunciations it's really quite silly If He meant for us to know a correct pronunciation, Jesus would have stated it clearly - He had plenty of time and would have inspired the writers to tell us. Instead, Jesus said, call Him Father. He called Him Father.

Also, I have many nic names and a "formal" name which hardly anyone uses. I prefer to the nic names and I really do not care what I am called - whatever you are comfy with. You see, it's not about knowing my name that is important, what I care about is if someone knows me.

In Hebrew, knowing someone's name is not knowing how to pronounce or spell it, but "the name" means that person's reputation, character, authority. If we "know" God, we know His "name", because we know who He is

I prefer to the nic names and I really do not care what I am called - whatever you are comfy with.

That is a brave statement. Not that I would. But I could say that I am comfy calling you jerk or moron. I highly doubt that you would not be uncomfortable with that. This is just to be used as an example. I am not, nor would I call you that.

I am not a scholar of hebrew by any means. From what I can find Adam = person in hebrew. Adamah = dust of the ground. Adam was formed out of the dust of the ground. Woman = Ishah. Man = Ish. Woman was formed out of man. Yeshua/Yehoshua = YHWH is salvation. Jesus Christ = ???.

You are correct when stating that God/Yahweh is not god of confusion. By looking at the hebrew words one can realize a correlation of words and meanings that is totally lost in translation.

He is also called Jesus Christ, where "Christ" is a title derived from the Greek Χριστός (Christós), meaning the "Anointed One," which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived "Messiah". The name "Jesus" is an Anglicization of the Greek Ίησους (Iēsous), itself a Hellenization of the Hebrew יהושע (Yehoshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic ישוע (Yeshua), meaning "YHWH is salvation".

Hellenization: adoption of Greek customs and language; process of
becoming Greek or Hellenistic in character.

Anglicization: Anglicisation or anglicization (see -ise vs -ize) is a process of making something English.The term most often refers to the process of altering the pronunciation or spelling of a foreign word when it is borrowed into English.

For me I see a beauty in the Hebrew language with names and words expressing meaning that are totally lost in translation or transliteration.

Just my thoughts.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:You are correct when stating that God/Yahweh is not god of confusion. By looking at the hebrew words one can realize a correlation of words and meanings that is totally lost in translation.

Can you perhaps give examples of what we have lost via translations?
Are you perhaps suggesting that we all need to go and learn hebrew so that we can get all these lost meanings?

The thing is Carl even when you learn hebrew(which I did) you discover that sometimes one word can have many meanings, the same as tends to happen in other languages.So we are back at the same place we started.
While hebrew is a beautiful language -it is just that-a language. And the word of God is perfectly able to be translated into another language inthe same way that many books are also translated into other languages.If I want to read a book that was originally written in French should I therefore learn French just to be able to read the book or isnt it just as well to purchase the english translation.
So it is so with God's word.
We do not have to go and learn hebrew and greek in order to understand the Gospel and then share it with others.
If you like hebrew ,that is fine,so do I but I have to be honest with you here,knowing the Hebrew didnt change my beliefs or understanding in any significant way.Those who say otherwise probably have an agenda like many of the popular Hebrew roots teachers who then use their supposed knowledge of hebrew to tempt you to buy their books,teachings and DVDs.
They will probably draw upon knowledge of their (supposed)paleo-hebrew and will tell you what they say are the true meanings of the words.funnily enough none of these teachers are fluent in hebrew and dont even know the meanings of common hebrew words.They will also tend to spurn formal learning and accredited education.

Quote:For me I see a beauty in the Hebrew language with names and words expressing meaning that are totally lost in translation or transliteration.

Can you explain to me with some examples?

[Emjesown]

Hello

I to had some hebrew lessons, not much tho, started twice to learn biblical hebrew and stopped twice
but for me it made things clearer, even after i found out that the so called hebrew minded teachers, did n t knowit all.
And had also many errors in theyre reachings.
I am out of the messianic movement now for almost 2 years i still have my doubts about christians techings as wel as messianiic/hebrew mind teachings.
But i learned alot to in the 3 years i joined them.
The old testament came to live to me, so it was n t a waste of time.

But i still don t have a hebrew mind, i m dutch so i have a dutch mind.
About languages, english is my second language and it has more clear expressions then dutch.
Same goes for hebrew i guess.

Not knowing any hebrew don t bring you tohell or makes you unsaved.
So don t worrie!
I still regurly check a word or verse with a jewish friend of mine, just to be sure what it means in the context.
And its really somewhat different then in dutch.
But my goal is to know God and His word.
Not te be a jew or israelite.

Emje