Legalism put plainly

[strefanash]

Put plainly sin is lawlessness. But legalism is not lawfullness. It is in fact lawlessness with a mask , an expression of the very sins it fights.

It is all to do with motive. If you obey God with a joyous heart in love peace, gentleness and restful repose then well and good, you are blessed by God.

But if you do not obey God like this then it is in fact not God you are obeying, merely the external form of a commandment in a book. The difference between lawfulness and legalism is motive. and it is ony god's grace which turns a lawless legalist (as strange as that sounds) into a lawful saint.

If we find it hard in ourselves we are unwilling and are forcing something against our own will. See how legalists get so harsh and driven, they are not denying themselves in any biblical sense, they are a kingdom divided which wil not stand

For the motive of legalism, though this is usually so deeply buried as to be totaly denied, is that we who are legalists are trying to save ourselves and then have the temerity to ask God to help us. But he never does. There is grace and help to be had, but he will never offer it to us to help us assert our independance from God, which is what legalism is at its very core.

I believe I know of what I speak, for my legalism was and is still extreme, and the conviction of sin he is giving in order to get me to repent of this sin beforfe it literally kills me (i am not joking) continues.

For not only do i have to repent of my sins of lust pride etc, but i have to repent even of my stern moral resolves to be pure and humble etc.

It took me 25 years to get here, as a pharisee of pharisee i am stubborn, refusing to acknowlege where it counts that i need to be saved. No, I prefer to save myself and cry to God to help me do it.

Even now

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I must add that I have NEVER defined legalism only as pre occupation with specifically Jewish Laws, but though I do hold that such coincerns are legalitic now I was never troubles by them. In fact I think this definition is dangerous for it obscures the danger and the pervasiveness of legalism in the rest of us who never felt the need

I was legalistic about the sermon on the mount and the 10 commandments. About the moral LAw if not the ceremonial Law . I was legalistic about looking away from women (as if that addressed what the commandment was about. IT DID NOT!!!!). I was legalistic about honesty, gentless (I was thoroughly repressed even as a child and more so after becoming a believer then falling away from christ into this carnal belief in moral effort.) And I was legalistic about faith as I was torn apart by doubt, and this thought repression is what drove me mad. Literally. Two psych ward admissions and 12 years on welfare as a sickness beneficiary came from it.

What the moral law commands is good, but my response to it as a sinner was entirely wrong.

Interestingly enough when i hear stories of gangsters coming to christ I am no longer imrpessed. What they usually have done is swapped one response to the Law of God (completely ignoring it) for another, and in fact they only took on a reponse to the LAw if God i had had since I was a child (I was converted age 19). MY life long striving left me tired even at that age. They take it on as a new convert. They do some external works of law, now have a moral framework when they never did (well so did I but it did me no good) and they think that a great change has happened when it has not. Given that these are the sort who now beat up what they call heretics (I got a few punches thrown at me), or unbelievers, I hold myself to be correct here.

But I digress. The spontaneous response to the Law of God coming from sinners wil always be wrong. St Paul's was. He went through Romans 7. So did I.

Converted 30 years ago for 5 years I ignored the Spirit til He got my attention in 1983. I can explain how later if you like. So for 25 years the conversation, twixt God and me, has been continuing, and even after all this time the notion that legalism is SIN is still unbelievable to me.

That is how deep legalism can get, and how destructive it can be

[Emjesown]

Legalism is following laws and rules for all the wrong reasons.
But as soon as you see the usefulness in it, you do it because its logical or to prefer it above not to do it.
But when it concerns the word of God, logical thinking is not enough.
It would mean that you have to aprove what God sais.
God is sooo above our thinking, that it seems arrogant to question His dissicions.
Does this mean that we have to obey no matter what?
Yes i think so, but this is only possible when you get to know God.
You don t obey a total stranger.
Once you get to know Him, you see that it makes sence, all that he is saying and asks from us.
And since God proves HImself to you, time after time you get more trust in Him. And then obeying is not legalism anymore.

EMJE (do i make sence or?)

[sheep wrecked]

(12-27-2008 11:09 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  Legalism is following laws and rules for all the wrong reasons.
But as soon as you see the usefulness in it, you do it because its logical or to prefer it above not to do it.
But when it concerns the word of God, logical thinking is not enough.
It would mean that you have to aprove what God sais.
God is sooo above our thinking, that it seems arrogant to question His dissicions.
Does this mean that we have to obey no matter what?
Yes i think so, but this is only possible when you get to know God.
You don t obey a total stranger.
Once you get to know Him, you see that it makes sence, all that he is saying and asks from us.
And since God proves HImself to you, time after time you get more trust in Him. And then obeying is not legalism anymore.

EMJE (do i make sence or?)

Let me take a stab at what I think you are saying. That if you know you need to do something to be obedient to God, you do it no matter what, but after time, it makes more sense as you get to know Him better. If I missed it, whack me :punch:

I think that if you do anything for God out of obligation, it is legalism. Obedience is not the main thing. A heart of love is. That pure love comes from God to our hearts as we come to know Him. It is never a perfect love, but God is faithful, when we are not. Therefore; out of the love He has given us we love others as He has loved us. Obedience is the ends to the means, but it is not the works that "satisfy" God. It is the love that we have for Him in response to what He has done for us in and through Christ Jesus.

In other words, those who keep the law out of a sense of obligation cannot please God. He is not interested in external obedience to carnal commandments, but rather to those things that please Him - like the fruit of the spirit in all righteousness and truth. That is why the law written on the heart is a pure "law" from the Law of Christ - and therefore we love others as He loves us.

In John 15, Jesus stated that He is the Vine and all those who do not bear fruit will be cut off. He did not say those who keep Torah, but those who love as He loved them/us and gave Himself for us [fruit of the Spirit is bearing good fruit]. Another way to look at it is in Phil 2 - Christ became a servant and we should do likewise.

[strefanash]

(12-27-2008 11:09 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  Legalism is following laws and rules for all the wrong reasons.
But as soon as you see the usefulness in it, you do it because its logical or to prefer it above not to do it.
etc
EMJE (do i make sence or?)

THE thing I ask is this: is it inwardly hard? Do you have to clench your teeth and bite down on some contrary impulse? Does it frighten you? Is thier spontaneity here, or cold calculation to drive down hot impulse or to force against complete lack of feeling altogether

Im asking how does it FEEL? Im saying that one's feelings are relevant here, because if we force against them we are like any slave whose slavery requires him to force himself against his contrary impulses. This after all is the definition of slavery. In the light of this, if this is our state, any good reasons we could proffer for our obedience are bogus, for what we are doing is taking the place of the slave driver as well as being the slave. And God is not honoured when we bottle up our rebellion and call our stamping on it obedience when it is not

Of course if your obedience is in joy peace and liberty, by all means continue, you are blessed and let no one stop you

If it is hard it is flesh and therefore sin. For it is written his yoke is easy his burden is light and also his commandments are not burdensome (yet also that his law is impossible). I believe I can reconcile this apparent contradiction. . . . .

The principle I invoke here even applies if the thing to be done is a prompting of the holy spirit and not directly of the letter of the law in scripture. Indeed this is how my legalism got going. I was legalistic about walking in the Spirit, about obeying the Holy Spirit. And this terrified me for I thought i was blaspheming the Spirit when i could not do what that demanding legalistic impulse required. And then i lived in terror of ferocious wrath about to strike at any time.

I prefered to do it rather than not, but that was fear of punishment and proud refusal to acknowledge my real motive as shown in my bad emotions and in my passions that became stirred by this effort in to an inferno.

And I submit this is the case every time unless you find obedience easy and a delight. Again I repeat: if you do find it such you are blessed