Keep the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday & Rest in Christ

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:I would agree, under the old the judgment was "death" same as with "adultery" aswell as "murder" , but we know both adultery and murder are also not "accepted" under the "new covenant" , the administering of the punishment is gone for all of the above but does that mean the positive command to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy is"?

I guess the Truth is on the line of what still exists and what is done away with in Gods eyes..

Malawk, under the new covenant the judgement is not gone, we face eternal death if we continue to sin.
The death sentence for some sins in the old was a physical picture of the severity of breaking that command. What is gone is the old covenant with its blessings and curses and superseded by a better one based on better promises.
As Vic pointed out ,when the rich young ruler was asked what he must do to have eternal life, notice that the Sabbath was not one of those Jesus mentioned.

I feel you keep mixing the covenants or wanting to mix them thinking they both apply maybe.

The law in the Old covenant was meant to be taken as a whole, no picking and choosing.Yet you agree some are changed and done away with like the stoning of homosexuals ,adulterers and Sabbath breakers.
Why not just accept that we are in a new covenant,not like the old,and that as believers in Jesus we enter into the new covenant.
The new covenant is not the Sinai one.
The Sinai one was with the descendants of Jacob and had rules and conditions. It had blessings and curses.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where the LORD your God has driven you,

That is not the covenant you entered into is it Malawk?

That covenant prefigured Jesus. Jesus went to a cross and excruciatingly poured out his life and blood on a cross ,cutting a new covenant for the remission of sins. The veil of the Temple was rent in two!
In doing so the Old was no longer in force.

A new era a new covenant.And you want to remain in a covenant that requires you to sacrifice animals ,has priests from aaron that no longer even do their priestly duties. Jesus is your high priest Malawk. Under the Old Covenant your high priest would be Aaronic not Jesus. The Sabbath is a sign of the Old Covenant not the new.
In the book of acts Peter ,Paul and the rest agree that gentiles do not have to be circumcised and keep the law.It cannot be any clearer than that. Being also under the law of liberty if you choose to honour a particular day more than others its fine, just dont think that you are required it.

[malawk]

Quote:Malawk, under the new covenant the judgement is not gone, we face eternal death if we continue to sin.

This statement is very true much more severe in the NT since Christ came ones eternal existence rests in his hands....

Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luk 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Malawk, under the new covenant the judgement is not gone, we face eternal death if we continue to sin.
The death sentence for some sins in the old was a physical picture of the severity of breaking that command. What is gone is the old covenant with its blessings and curses and superseded by a better one based on better promises.
As Vic pointed out ,when the rich young ruler was asked what he must do to have eternal life, notice that the Sabbath was not one of those Jesus mentioned.

I feel you keep mixing the covenants or wanting to mix them thinking they both apply maybe.

its obvious things from the covenant at Sinai still exist the above discourse with the rich young ruler shows that , the question is more what still exists from it....

Are the two great commandments Jesus quoted for us today or are they in the past or are they "strictly kept in the first covenant" since that is where Jesus quotes them from..

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

since these commandments are from the covenant of Sinai should they be left there so as not to "mix" the two covenants?

Quote:The law in the Old covenant was meant to be taken as a whole, no picking and choosing.Yet you agree some are changed and done away with like the stoning of homosexuals ,adulterers and Sabbath breakers.
Why not just accept that we are in a new covenant,not like the old,and that as believers in Jesus we enter into the new covenant.
The new covenant is not the Sinai one.
The Sinai one was with the descendants of Jacob and had rules and conditions. It had blessings and curses

.
Think we can agree the curses within the NT are more severe then those of Sinai though both are severe

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Last verse also why I still fear Gods word He spoke at Sinai along with the severe judgments mentioned in the book of revelation along with the words of Christ words in the Gospels

Quote:Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where the LORD your God has driven you,

That is not the covenant you entered into is it Malawk?

When I entered into Christ I entered into his words of the new testament, all of them, which include his refferences to the "law and prophets" as well as the rest of new testaments scriptures Peters Pauls Johns aswell

Blessings and the curses of the covenant of Sinai would be a good new thread also what is applicable for today....

That covenant prefigured Jesus. Jesus went to a cross and excruciatingly poured out his life and blood on a cross ,cutting a new covenant for the remission of sins. The veil of the Temple was rent in two!
In doing so the Old was no longer in force.

Quote:A new era a new covenant.And you want to remain in a covenant that requires you to sacrifice animals ,has priests from aaron that no longer even do their priestly duties. Jesus is your high priest Malawk. Under the Old Covenant your high priest would be Aaronic not Jesus. The Sabbath is a sign of the Old Covenant not the new.
In the book of acts Peter ,Paul and the rest agree that gentiles do not have to be circumcised and keep the law.It cannot be any clearer than that. Being also under the law of liberty if you choose to honour a particular day more than others its fine, just dont think that you are required it.

Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty

and we know who James wrote his letter to ...............

-Greg

[sheep wrecked]

(12-30-2008 10:47 PM)carl37 Wrote:  In reference to:

Hi Greg, I think we would agree that Jesus had the authority to give new commandments, which He did, when He said things like "it has been said,... but I say unto you"--my paraphrase. We also know that He did in fact change some of the application of the Mosaic law--which we know came down from God. So we know He also had the authority to change it.


This is just my thought on this. I could be wrong. When Yeshua was talking of this in the Sermon on the Mount. He was getting to the heart of the matter. Example:

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Adultery is sin. However to commit adultery, one must have the inclination to do so by looking and lusting and thinking about committing adultery. That is just as great a sin and really gets to the "heart" of the matter.

Also:
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Again killing is a sin, however getting angry (which one would have to do) is just as great a sin and really gets to the "heart" of the matter.

Which is why in Hebrews it says:
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Yeshua didn't come to do away with the Torah (Laws) he came to write them upon our hearts and minds. The Torah was written on stone.

The best example I can give is a Stop sign. It is written upon a piece of metal. Why do we stop at one? Because we have it in our mind and heart that it we don't stop at best we can get a ticket, at worst we can kill or be killed. So in reality the stop sign has no jurisdiction on us. It is what we have in our mind and heart that validates it.

Again this is just my opinion.

Or a better way to put it. The stop sign is written on metal and is there to guide us into doing what is right. Just as were the Ten Commandments. However if one doesn't take it to "heart" and believe in our mind then the stop sign is no good, just as the tablets of stone were of no use, Until it is written upon the heart and mind.

I was thinking about the stop sign

I don't really stop cause that law is written on my heart and mind, but because it's a subconscious response. I have been driving for way over 40 years. I keep the laws for fear of reprisal, to be honest. I don't drive the speed limit because it's supposedly safer, but because I don't want a ticket

Laws written on the heart are not a list of instructions like what is written on the stone tablets - exact words that God used to show how to keep commandments precisely as He instructed. Laws written on the heart are spiritual laws like loving God above all, loving your neighbor in ways that God leads us to do so, being disciplined and corrected by Him so that we are transformed and made into the image of Christ. The laws written on our hearts are the fruit of the spirit in all goodness, righteousness, and truth. They are not manifested in a specific action, but individually as the Spirit moves us and renews each of us.

I have to share a humorous view of the stop sign titled: "Hermeneutics in Everyday Life". I think you will get a kick out of it

http://www.calvin.edu/~lhaarsma/hermeneutics_humor.html

[carl37]

Sheep wrecked,

That was so funny. Where did you find that? I have never seen that or even heard of anything like that. If I had I probably would have tried to use a different descriptive element. Kudos. Hats off to you. That was very good.

[sheep wrecked]

(12-31-2008 07:03 PM)carl37 Wrote:  Sheep wrecked,

That was so funny. Where did you find that? I have never seen that or even heard of anything like that. If I had I probably would have tried to use a different descriptive element. Kudos. Hats off to you. That was very good.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny myself. Someone sent it to me, so I am just passing it along. Glad you enjoyed it :clap:

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:since these commandments are from the covenant of Sinai should they be left there so as not to "mix" the two covenants?

Malawk, that comment made me think of two things.
One is that as believers I see that we cannot be under two covenants at the same time. Two different contracts.
Do they have similar rules? Morally speaking yes, since coveting will always be wrong, as would be murder as would be lying etc. However we see things defined in Sinai covenant which were sin for Israelites but not to the rest of the world. Eating unclean food would have been a sin for Israelites and not for the gentiles for example.

Would the Ten Commandments, have been applicable to all then? Well, I am reminded of how Jonah was called to preach to the Assyrians/ninevites. However since the Sabbath was not given to them, would Jonah have reprimanded the ninevites for not following the Sabbath? Somehow I don’t think so.
Was Sinai law the ideal of his laws for us?
Well, the Ten Commandments are a great summary of what is right and wrong and what God expects from us. Was it exhaustive,no? were the 613 exhaustive? Don’t think so since Jesus himself when speaking of divorce said that Moses allowed it due to the hardness of their hearts but in the beginning it was not so.
How do we see that then? Some say God does not change, as though when once God makes a command he cannot then change it a later date.
There we see in the law of Moses God makes allowance for mans condition of the heart when he issues the Sinai precepts.
Wasn’t the whole nation to be a nation of priests but then things changed after the worship of the golden calf?
Some Messianics love to quote from Psalms etc to show that the Law is perfect and good. But then I see that they restrict Gods Law to the first five books of Moses when someone already mentioned here that the whole OT was Law, including Psalms and Prophets not just what Moses gave at Sinai. Gods law is indeed perfect law and good and Jesus came to teach us it in its fullness.

As to

Quote:Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty

and we know who James wrote his letter to ......

I am unclear as to what you tried to show there ,maybe you can elaborate?

The law of liberty is distinguished from the law of Sinai which was also called by Paul the law that kills/condemns, since the spirit brought liberty and life.

As to what blessings of the Sinai and curses of the covenant apply, like you asked.
I'd say none, noone is in that covenant anymore. That covenant failed to be in force when Jesus hang on that tree. It went out with a loud cry of "It is finished" and with a rip of the temple curtain.

We are in a new covenant based on better promises. Gone are the outward ceremonial rituals that people could comply with and still betray the uncleanness of the heart. No longer are those available so that people may hide behind them in an outward show of righteousness.

[Emjesown]

We are in a new covenant based on better promises. Gone are the outward ceremonial rituals that people could comply with and still betray the uncleanness of the heart. No longer are those available so that people may hide behind them in an outward show of righteousness.

Okay i thought on that for a moment
and my Q is:

Since ceremonial stuff is gone, since the old comvemamt is gone....
how shall we express out faith
What shall we do in meetings of worship, gatherings around the word.
People like rituals and fill in meetings in a way that makes it pleasant,
how do we replace all that if any?

EMJE

[strefanash]

(01-01-2009 11:09 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  and my Q is:

Since ceremonial stuff is gone, since the old comvemamt is gone....
how shall we express out faith
What shall we do in meetings of worship, gatherings around the word.
People like rituals and fill in meetings in a way that makes it pleasant,
how do we replace all that if any?

EMJE

The pat answer is: be led by the Spirit. The trouble is that is is exactly the right answer. The reason it has become a pat answer is that it is parrotted by many who have no idea what it means or think their arid religious life equals a relationship with said Holy Spirit.

In other words these words my be dismissed with the jeer: "but that's what they all say" precisely because it is what they all say. and so the name is blasphemed because of us

The thing is if we have not got a relationship with the Holy Spirit we may either sit around waiting for someone to think of something, like the Quakers, make asses of ourselves as i have seen in so many pentecostal type rave fest, or try and control things with a liturgy, written or unwritten.

Trust me (or not ) WE protestants have liturgies just as the Catholics do. Unwritten but still liturgies

The primary question is do we actually have something to express?

Your answer is between you or God, of course, as is mine, and not my business

[DarkGlass1312]

The sabbath is in a long list of OT ordinances that all pointed to Christ, but are meaningless now. Christ is our Rest and Satisfaction- and He's there everyday. We don't need to esteem one day above another. Worship God not just on Saturday and Sunday, but every other day of the week as well. Worship Him with heart, actions, and words; in spirit and in truth.

[sheep wrecked]