Keep the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday & Rest in Christ

[sheep wrecked]

(06-14-2009 07:28 AM)Truth Seeker Wrote:  Ok then. Appears I've awakened a few deep thoughts with a mod or 2 and even a mere member such as myself now. I'll try to answer everyone yet I'll need to be brief because as you all know typing in this type of environment can become quite time consuming.

I would much rather speak to you all face to face since this is a bit impersonal. Be that as it may lets proceed...

Obviously, your agenda here is to "teach", not discuss. The attitude needs to change. You are coming off as superior and above "reproach". Usually when one adheres to a specific system of belief like Hebrew Roots, "spiritual" and "gnostic" arrogance overflows - which is obvious from your first post and has worsened on the second one

This needs to change or posting privileges will be moderated.

Quote:Yes, as I stated I have read some of the other posts. And, of course I realize my statement wouldn't go over "real well". My statement was not intended to offend, but rather to begin as you said, a dialog. I do however understand how anyone that calls themselves a Christian would become a bit, taken back, shall we say. Hold on....everything will be ok. You will soon see that it's no big deal to get the correct day of worship correct!

There wasn't even a "correct day to worship" in Torah. The Sabbath was not given to "worship" God. It was given a day of rest. Not to gather in a synagogue, not to fellowship or go to "schul" but to stay put in one's own tent.

Israel could not observe the Sabbath. As Hebrews shows us, even though they "kept" the Sabbath they could not enter the rest of God because of unbelief.

Quote:Yes, you are correct! I am "deeply engrossed". Please allow me to briefly explain. Like you, I was involved with the "messy antics" Judaism but now I'm not. I found out their orgins and who I was supporting in a round about manner. Unlike you though, I went in the complete opposite direction! I refused to go back into Christianity. I saw enough corruption within the 1000 or so different denominations that I knew there must be something better. Something closer to the truth!

The fact that you are observing a 7th days sabbath proves that you are still pandering after the "messy antics" Judaism. It is Judaism that has fully "developed" the structure and practice of synagogue/Messianic congregational traditions and beliefs.

You are spilling out "Messianic messy antics" with every word you write.

God is not about "denominations". This forum is not about denominational adherence or practice, but about relationship with God in Christ, through the pure, inspired, infallible Word of God.

Quote:So as far as "refuting" HR goes... we shall see. If we all can think logically and put aside any subjective thinking, perhaps....just perhaps....some light will come shining through!

Beep, wrongo ......... The "light" and truth comes from God's Word as discerned by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit [see 1 Corinthians 2] not by "subjective thinking" - which is why you are confused

Quote:Wow...this is a lot to respond to. I'll be brief yet...truthful shall we say?

It never takes long for most to come up with the verse from Collisions.

On this forum, we do not accept mockery of God's Word. "Collisions" is not acceptable, it is downright heretical. Do you think God is amused by your sarcasm?

Quote: That's ok though. I hung on that same verse for about 20 years myself at one time! Now for a small dose of truth.... Remember now.....we're thinking objectively, not subjectively, right?

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.

Consider these facts...
1)Paul 1st mentions meat and drink.
There are no drink regulations in the "law".
2)The kjv added the word "is" to the verse changing what is contrasted.
3)He says they are a "Shadow of what is to come".
Paul is saying let no man judge you, except members of the one body because these festivals and new moons and annual (and weekly) Sabbaths which you had not been keeping, but are at long last now keeping, are shadows of good things to come! Think logically here!

hmmm ...... I think you missed a few verses in Torah

Exo 29:41 And the other lamb you shall offer at even, and shall do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet smell, an offering made by fire to the LORD.

Lev 23:13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire to the LORD for a sweet smell: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

That's just two samples - check out Lev and Numbers

The feasts are ALL COMPLETELY fulfilled in Christ - that is why He died. Perhaps you missed His statement on the cross: IT IS FINISHED! and the veil of the Temple was rent in half

Quote:Paul kept the weekly and annual Sabbaths himself. Why would scripture be silent on changing the 4th commandment if it had been done away with? I've got good news for you! It hasn't changed. Paul didn't have the authority to change the law. As a matter of fact he considered the law...

Paul did not need to change the law. Jesus did on the cross. Read Hebrews.

Paul went to the synagogue on the Sabbath to preach the Gospel to the Jews and gentiles who came to hear him. He was not there to learn Torah or to "keep" the sabbath. The disciples met together EVERY DAY, worshiping God and breaking bread together. Then they went to the Temple EVERY DAY to witness the Gospel.

Jesus gave authority to the disciples/apostles to rule according to His commands, which were not the same as Torah.

Quote:Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Torah of Elohim according to the inward man,

"A delight" and elsewhere "holy and just".

According to the rules of this forum and COPY RIGHT LAWS you have to designate what version of the Bible you are using other than the KJV

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The text does not say "Torah". It does not even say the Law of Moses. It says the Law of God, not the old covenant - broken and discarded by GOD. The Law of God in the New Covenant of the shed blood of Christ is His Law.

Quote:I beg to differ. Let's check the writings, shall we? The Weekly Sabbath we are addressing was given to "man".

Mar 2:27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Perhaps you missed the pivotal point that Jesus made. He is Lord of the Sabbath. When one is IN Him, one is continually in the Sabbath Rest.


It would be helpful, before you continue posting, is to read the threads. So much of what you are going on about has already been answered. It is also indicative that you stop "teaching" about the Sabbath, and read the scriptures praying for wisdom - your Hebrew Roots is showing like an elephant in the living room

[grafted]

Ok you have me curious now, since I have been trying, for a time, to wrap my head around this law issue.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

How does the above contrast and compare to what you have previously written...
note: I am under strong pain meds at the moment so trying to unravel it myself at this exact moment in time is akin to asking my puppy to put my boots on for me; looks good on paper, not too good in practice.

[Rose of Shushan]

If the Sabbath had been for man as a whole it would have been given to every man to observe but, like some already mentioned here, the Sabbath was a sign to Israel as part of the Covenant God made with them at Sinai.

Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Exo 16:29 See, for the LORD has given you the sabbath, therefore he gives you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide you every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Deu 5:15 And remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

Neh 9:13 You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses your servant



There are many verses that show the Sabbath was given to Israel as part of the Sinai Covenant.And Hebrews 4 shows us that this rest we obtain now through the new Covenant and Jesus. Why would the writer of Hebrews urge people to enter in today otherwise, it just would not make sense.

[Liberated by Faith]

(06-14-2009 01:02 PM)grafted Wrote:  

(06-14-2009 11:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

Ok you have me curious now, since I have been trying, for a time, to wrap my head around this law issue.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

How does the above contrast and compare to what you have previously written...
note: I am under strong pain meds at the moment so trying to unravel it myself at this exact moment in time is akin to asking my puppy to put my boots on for me; looks good on paper, not too good in practice.

What version are you using? Here is the KJV:

Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi Grafted, nice to see you back on the forum and sorry to hear your health isn't too good right now.
I want to just comment on the last verse of what you quoted

Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of the pharisees was not a true righteousness.It was based on false appearances and a concentration on external acts of law keeping as opposed to the right heart issue. They were whitewashed tombs as Jesus called them and presented a clean pleasant outward exterior while their hearts hid all sorts of filth.
So when Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed that of the pharisees he certainly did not mean that we had to keep Torah or the precepts of the written Torah better than them.That would not have made sense in the light of the context.What Jesus meant was that our true righteousness had to exceed theirs.Our inner hearts and attitudes had to be real and not use our works and outward appearances to deceive ourselves that that is true righteousness which pleases God.
That is also what Jesus referred to when he said to them on one ocassion quoting them the words of Hosea the prophet.
Mat 9:13 But go and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In restrospect we can see that adherence to the Law can be so external,that it can make one seem righteous but it can never make you righteous inside.You can tell a person or child not to do something,but unless the person truly doesnt want to do it the desire will always remain.Thus it is with the Law.We can be told by God certain things are wrong but that doesnt change our desire for it and our ability to control that.What God wanted was hearts that truly yearn to do good.And that good is not just adherence to the ritualistic aspects of the Law.Many messianics today say if you truly loved God you'd keep his commandments,implying that we should obey the Sinai Law commandments.Well hello,the pharisees really tried hard to keep those commandments.I have no doubt they loved God with all their hearts.But that didn't stop their hearts being fulled of filth and undesirable things.The mind is willing but the flesh is weak so the saying goes.And it is a part of being human,all these desires and stuff which lead to sin.That is precisely why we need Jesus and the New Covenant so much.The Old will only condemn us as Paul wrote. The whole story of Israel in the Tanak only serves to show us that without a spiritual circumcision of our hearts adherence to outward rituals of sacrifice and circumcision means absolutely nothing in God's eyes and if fact is a stench in his nostrils.

[sheep wrecked]

(06-14-2009 01:02 PM)grafted Wrote:  

(06-14-2009 11:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

Ok you have me curious now, since I have been trying, for a time, to wrap my head around this law issue.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

How does the above contrast and compare to what you have previously written...
note: I am under strong pain meds at the moment so trying to unravel it myself at this exact moment in time is akin to asking my puppy to put my boots on for me; looks good on paper, not too good in practice.

The wrong concept is emphasized. Jesus said the Law was not abolished, BUT ........... He came to FULFILL it. And fulfill it He did

What I find interesting is that Messianics/Hebrew Roots say that "fulfill" means to "fill up Torah" or that Jesus gave "full interpretation" of what God really wanted. However; if they then state that prophecy is fulfilled they mean it is completed. How double minded!!!

Secondly, the phrase "till Heaven and earth pass away" can be taken literally, but it can also be stated comparatively as we see in Luke. What is interesting about this text is that Jesus clearly states the law and prophets were UNTIL John; and then the Kingdom of God is preached, NOT the law and prophets. Now how clear is that?

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail.

[Rose of Shushan]

Grafted and those interested in hearing or discussing more on the passages Grafted was discussing can look at this thread.

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=77

Feel free to comment on that thread also in relation to it.Discussion is always good

[Emjesown]

Perhaps you missed the pivotal point that Jesus made. He is Lord of the Sabbath. When one is IN Him, one is continually in the Sabbath Rest.

And this is excectly what i ment, in genesis God set apart the 7th day to "rest"altho he was not tired!
So that resting day, must mean something else!
Its a refferens to Hiseternal rest and to the Lord of the shabbath,
Altho its made to a law to israel after Egypt,and a sign to that convenant, it also sais.
The law was added because of the trngressions UNTIL.....
the until was already a promise in genesis.
In those first 7 days of creation God is putting His plan to salvatiom.
And everything that is writtten afterwards is pointing to the same thing.
The fact that He made it Hislaw. does not mean that it startedout that way.
So....the 7th day for me is a memorial, and i think its a beaytifull memorial.
Again...i dont "keep"shabbat, neither do i"keep"torah,since the torah is 5 books with more then thelaw.
Its HIS story!
And when Jesus came, the goal of that story ended.
To go on with freedom by grace through faith.
By faith we obey
By grace we can obey
Freedom is not a licence to sin.

EMJE

[sheep wrecked]

(06-14-2009 04:14 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  Perhaps you missed the pivotal point that Jesus made. He is Lord of the Sabbath. When one is IN Him, one is continually in the Sabbath Rest.

And this is excectly what i ment, in genesis God set apart the 7th day to "rest"altho he was not tired!
So that resting day, must mean something else!
Its a refferens to Hiseternal rest and to the Lord of the shabbath,
Altho its made to a law to israel after Egypt,and a sign to that convenant, it also sais.
The law was added because of the trngressions UNTIL.....
the until was already a promise in genesis.
In those first 7 days of creation God is putting His plan to salvatiom.
And everything that is writtten afterwards is pointing to the same thing.
The fact that He made it Hislaw. does not mean that it startedout that way.
So....the 7th day for me is a memorial, and i think its a beaytifull memorial.
Again...i dont "keep"shabbat, neither do i"keep"torah,since the torah is 5 books with more then thelaw.
Its HIS story!
And when Jesus came, the goal of that story ended.
To go on with freedom by grace through faith.
By faith we obey
By grace we can obey
Freedom is not a licence to sin.

EMJE

The Rest that is Jesus Christ is peace - inner heart and mind changing peace to the depths of your soul. It is not keeping a day or a memorial to the Sabbath. If one wants to recognize/remember the 7th as the day that God rested from Creation, cool. For some, everyday is glorification to God for that.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:It never takes long for most to come up with the verse from Collisions. That's ok though. I hung on that same verse for about 20 years myself at one time! Now for a small dose of truth.... Remember now.....we're thinking objectively, not subjectively, right?

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.

Consider these facts...
1)Paul 1st mentions meat and drink.
There are no drink regulations in the "law".
2)The kjv added the word "is" to the verse changing what is contrasted.
3)He says they are a "Shadow of what is to come".
Paul is saying let no man judge you, except members of the one body because these festivals and new moons and annual (and weekly) Sabbaths which you had not been keeping, but are at long last now keeping, are shadows of good things to come! Think logically here!

Paul kept the weekly and annual Sabbaths himself. Why would scripture be silent on changing the 4th commandment if it had been done away with? I've got good news for you! It hasn't changed. Paul didn't have the authority to change the law. As a matter of fact he considered the law...

The good things to come were already here.Messiah Jesus and the New Covenant.

Theres some good verses to show this in Hebrews but this one addresses what you wrote quite well

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Also check these out

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, says he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect.