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Mary · (This post was last modified: 04-22-2010 03:18 PM by sheep wrecked.)

disguised as Christianity? well maybe not, seems like "marketing" to me and when you delve deeper, you find they are selling "leadership skills" and "life coaching".

Check out this website.. http://www.theforgottenways.org

sheep wrecked · 04-22-2010, 03:31 PM

(04-22-2010 07:14 AM)Mary Wrote: disguised as Christianity? well maybe not, seems like "marketing" to me and when you delve deeper, you find they are selling "leadership skills" and "life coaching".

Check out this website.. http://www.theforgottenways.org

It's new age .... look at this link - about a book written by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost. The website forgottenways is Alan's.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/rejesus.php

here is a quote from the link:

Quote:ReJesus: a wild Messiah for a Missional church
by Mike Frost and Alan Hirsch

Someone once challenged us that in heaven there'll be no mission only worship. We couldn't disagree more. Sure, we won't be feeding the poor or planting churches. Those missional activities will cease when every knee bows, every tongue confesses, and every tear is wiped away. But in the world to come, we will still be charged with the task of declaring Jesus' rule over all of life. We are looking forward to that unhindered mission of the new age and to worshipping through the process of offering our world back to God.

- From 'ReJesus: a wild Messiah for a missional church,' by Mike Frost and Alan Hirsch (page 181).

At it's heart this is a book about Christology - the doctrine of who Jesus is. But it's very far from being a dry theoretical treatise. Rather, it's a challenge to follow Jesus personally, and to re-shape our lives to be like him - to be 'Re-Jesused.'

One way Frost and Hirsch do this is by telling the stories of a lot of people who they describe as 'little Jesuses' - people who showed in their lives what it meant to follow Jesus, often at great personal cost.

Check out the logo on the opening page of his website. The blinking multicolored lights and the objects coming out of "chaos". Lots of things come to mind ....

Mary · 04-22-2010, 05:35 PM

They talk about Jesus in very unusual ways. The idea of "wild Messiah" is blatantly emotive and designed to "whip" up feeling. The really scary part is when you get to their section on "leadership" - there is no mention of Jesus there, just psychology and "assessment" and personal coaching. I also noticed that the staff of the leadership programme all seem to have been assessed as having all the "gifts" - apostolic, teaching, shepherding etc. I think the website is carefully constructed to suck you into their "leadership" training, where there is a lot of money to be gained for them.

I think Alan Hirsch is not so much an"Apostolicgenius" as a marketing genius who has caught onto the coat tails of Rick Warren's church building/money making false teaching.

sheep wrecked · 04-23-2010, 02:37 PM

(04-22-2010 05:35 PM)Mary Wrote: They talk about Jesus in very unusual ways. The idea of "wild Messiah" is blatantly emotive and designed to "whip" up feeling. The really scary part is when you get to their section on "leadership" - there is no mention of Jesus there, just psychology and "assessment" and personal coaching. I also noticed that the staff of the leadership programme all seem to have been assessed as having all the "gifts" - apostolic, teaching, shepherding etc. I think the website is carefully constructed to suck you into their "leadership" training, where there is a lot of money to be gained for them.

I think Alan Hirsch is not so much an"Apostolicgenius" as a marketing genius who has caught onto the coat tails of Rick Warren's church building/money making false teaching.

I totally agree. It is seductive and appeals to people's emotions and feelings with "deeper" knowledge and understanding. Isn't that how satan deceived Eve? So many apostles and prophets ..... and you shall be like God.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Mary · 04-27-2010, 05:36 AM

(04-23-2010 02:37 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(04-22-2010 05:35 PM)Mary Wrote: They talk about Jesus in very unusual ways. The idea of "wild Messiah" is blatantly emotive and designed to "whip" up feeling. The really scary part is when you get to their section on "leadership" - there is no mention of Jesus there, just psychology and "assessment" and personal coaching. I also noticed that the staff of the leadership programme all seem to have been assessed as having all the "gifts" - apostolic, teaching, shepherding etc. I think the website is carefully constructed to suck you into their "leadership" training, where there is a lot of money to be gained for them.

I think Alan Hirsch is not so much an"Apostolicgenius" as a marketing genius who has caught onto the coat tails of Rick Warren's church building/money making false teaching.

I totally agree. It is seductive and appeals to people's emotions and feelings with "deeper" knowledge and understanding. Isn't that how satan deceived Eve? So many apostles and prophets ..... and you shall be like God.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Thanks Sheep. I contacted Mr Hirsch and sent him these verses, and expressed my concerns about his teachings. I'll keep praying about it too, as somebody I like and respect a lot has some interest in his work.

Mary · 05-08-2010, 07:07 PM

Well, Mr Hirsch didn't respond to my email, so I posted the Scripture on his facebook page. I posted each verse separately, and he deleted all but the first - he said they dominated the page. This was the main gist of his response:
"my experience of self-nominated doctrine-police is that they are really a manifestation of modern day Pharasaism, and to be honest, I don't generally feel accountable to such folk"

This morning he has posted a link to a cartoon: http://ow.ly/i/1swJ
which I thought was quite ironic.

He has ignored all my other comments, and no-one out of his 2833 fans has joined the discussion, not even to defend him.
He had a quote on his wall, to which I responded, and 2 people agreed with me, which I found interesting:

"the first responsibility of a leader is to define reality - Max De Pree"

he followed this up with a comment: "Jesus gets first go...we are meant to be a movement!!"
9 people expressed that they like the quote, with 4 of them saying, they love it, use it, live by it.
My response was: "and once the leader has defined reality the followers then all accept it as reality? Useful for the leader. And "Jesus gets 'first go'?? implies He gets his turn and then you and other 'leaders' get yours? How easily the followers can be diverted! How many movements become cults? When Jesus called the men who became his disciples, they did not know that He is God, after His death and resurrection, they did, and they went out to tell the world, to believe in Him and be saved, and to be like Him. They did not ask people to follow them, but to believe in Jesus, the son of God. Why do you teach "leadership" and not Jesus Christ?"

Mr Hirsch is ignoring me now and I may possibly be banned from his page. It is so sad that on this facebook page, of 2833 fans, and growing daily, no-one is looking to God's word to check out what this man is saying. Yet, another Facebook page for ComeReason Ministries, which consistently uses the Bible, has only an 8th of the support Alan Hirsch has. Swoon

Mary · 05-09-2010, 09:06 AM

in the past few hours, a few people have joined the discussion. It has again been suggested that I am a Pharisee, divisive, unloving and of the "dark side".

If you want to read more here is the link
http://www.facebook.com/#!/alanhirsch2

sheep wrecked · 05-10-2010, 04:30 PM

(05-09-2010 09:06 AM)Mary Wrote: in the past few hours, a few people have joined the discussion. It has again been suggested that I am a Pharisee, divisive, unloving and of the "dark side".

If you want to read more here is the link
http://www.facebook.com/#!/alanhirsch2

It's just not popular to stick with the Bible. Most people prefer to listen to their favorite teachers - which are really their spiritual "gurus". When they find someone they like, it's pretty hard to convince them that there is something wrong and the list of excuses is given:

* He is just a man, not perfect and therefore he will make mistakes.
* He is called by God [touch not the anointed]; therefore you have no right to point out his errors
* If you have a problem with his teaching take it to him personally and follow the Matt 19:18 system.
* Just chew the meat and spit out the bones.
* We all just need to get along - unity of the brotherhood and therefore, it is not up to us to refute or expose which causes bitterness, strife, and discord.
* If God has a problem with someone He will take care of it/them - we need to just leave that person alone.

When you continue to refute with Scripture and facts, then the name calling starts and the mocking. It's a pattern I am most familiar with. I just got off a forum again where I was "attacked" for posting the truth, which I supplied verified documentation. They just hate it when you make sense Biggrin

You just keep on keepin' on and let the water run off your back. We are called to speak the truth - that is not dependent on the outcome - God is the one who opens blinded eyes. We are just the vessel, or as I like to say, I am just the talking donkey Ecomcity

ps: I am curious about your statement that the disciples did not know Jesus is God before His death. I think they did. I will look for Scripture 9020

Mary · (This post was last modified: 05-10-2010 04:57 PM by Mary.)

(05-10-2010 04:30 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(05-09-2010 09:06 AM)Mary Wrote: in the past few hours, a few people have joined the discussion. It has again been suggested that I am a Pharisee, divisive, unloving and of the "dark side".

If you want to read more here is the link
http://www.facebook.com/#!/alanhirsch2

It's just not popular to stick with the Bible. Most people prefer to listen to their favorite teachers - which are really their spiritual "gurus". When they find someone they like, it's pretty hard to convince them that there is something wrong and the list of excuses is given:

* He is just a man, not perfect and therefore he will make mistakes.
* He is called by God [touch not the anointed]; therefore you have no right to point out his errors
* If you have a problem with his teaching take it to him personally and follow the Matt 19:18 system.
* Just chew the meat and spit out the bones.
* We all just need to get along - unity of the brotherhood and therefore, it is not up to us to refute or expose which causes bitterness, strife, and discord.
* If God has a problem with someone He will take care of it/them - we need to just leave that person alone.

When you continue to refute with Scripture and facts, then the name calling starts and the mocking. It's a pattern I am most familiar with. I just got off a forum again where I was "attacked" for posting the truth, which I supplied verified documentation. They just hate it when you make sense

You just keep on keepin' on and let the water run off your back. We are called to speak the truth - that is not dependent on the outcome - God is the one who opens blinded eyes. We are just the vessel, or as I like to say, I am just the talking donkey

ps: I am curious about your statement that the disciples did not know Jesus is God before His death. I think they did. I will look for Scripture

thanks Sheep - I'll also look now. What I meant was that the disciples weren't sure He was God - they knew he was the Messiah, but Jesus had to tell them He is the son of God and, is One with Him, and His death and resurrection confirmed this for them. If I'm going to be the talking donkey I better get it right!

of course, if they had witnessed or heard of His baptism, they would know that God had said from the heavens "this is my Beloved Son".

The problem with me defending the truth is that sometimes I get carried away with the pride of being involved.

sheep wrecked · 05-11-2010, 01:52 PM

(05-10-2010 04:48 PM)Mary Wrote: sheep:

ps: I am curious about your statement that the disciples did not know Jesus is God before His death. I think they did. I will look for Scripture

thanks Sheep - I'll also look now. What I meant was that the disciples weren't sure He was God - they knew he was the Messiah, but Jesus had to tell them He is the son of God and, is One with Him, and His death and resurrection confirmed this for them. If I'm going to be the talking donkey I better get it right!

of course, if they had witnessed or heard of His baptism, they would know that God had said from the heavens "this is my Beloved Son".

[/quote]

I think I had a momentary brain glitch the first time I answered you Biggrin

Jesus said He was God numerous times in the Gospels - I was simply not with it when I answered!!! I know this like I know the back of my hand

At one point, the Pharisees tried to kill Him because He said He was God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:31-33 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.