War

[YYZ Skinhead]

Is it a sin for believers to fight in wars nowadays? There are Scriptures that instruct soldiers. Many Biblical individuals and groups went into battle. A lot of modern people (Hitler is the obvious example) need to die because they cannot be stopped any other way. If the draft is reinstated (in the USA) what is a believer who is drafted, supposed to do according to Scripture?

[sheep wrecked]

(09-24-2010 03:03 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  Is it a sin for believers to fight in wars nowadays? There are Scriptures that instruct soldiers. Many Biblical individuals and groups went into battle. A lot of modern people (Hitler is the obvious example) need to die because they cannot be stopped any other way. If the draft is reinstated (in the USA) what is a believer who is drafted, supposed to do according to Scripture?

If one is drafted, I believe they need to be obedient to Scripture. I have varying opinions about serving in the military. However; I will support the men and women who serve, if that is their choice. They have fought valiantly for our country and many have paid the ultimate sacrifice with their lives.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

I know there are several more Scripts! Anyone?

[heb13-13]

Skinhead, ultimately you will have to determine from the Word of God what your conviction will be.

There are plenty of scriptures where you can develop a conviction that you should not fight. Jesus taught non-resistance, not pacifism. There is a difference. Augustine created the doctrine of the "Just War" but we don't follow Augustine.

I became a Christian in the Navy during the Vietnam War and the Lord did not lead me to become a conscientious objector and leave the Navy early. On the other hand, I led a fellow sailor to the Lord, (John O.) and about 8 months after his new birth he told me that he was filing conscientious objector status and leaving the Navy. I did not have any problem with that and he did not have any problem with me staying in the Navy. We all have our personal relationship with God.

If you are drafted you do not have to comply anymore than if you are a doctor and are ordered to perform an abortion and don't believe in it. Of course, you could pay a penalty of going to jail, but if your conviction is that you do not want to be put in a position to kill anyone then you will obviously be prepared to pay the penalty. On the other hand, if you just can't wait to get into war and shoot people, then you have much bigger problems and your real issue is not whether or not one should be in the military.

There is nothing wrong with being in the military just like there is nothing wrong with paying taxes (and they go for many unchristian things), but with my experience and the vets that I know, you have to harden your heart to a certain degree to kill people. There are many jobs in the military such as cooks, administration, supply, etc. You don't have to sign up for combat.

I had 3 Jewish friends in Berkeley, CA., that felt led to go back to Israel and they knew that they would have to join the Army. They did not want to be in a position where they would have to kill others but they wanted to go back to Israel to witness so they joined as cooks.

Ultimately, it is between you and the Lord. The scripture that Sheep gave is not really saying that you have to join the military, like I said anymore than the Government telling a Doctor that he/she has to perform an abortion. If you are drafted and you believe God, through His Word is telling you to refuse, then how would that be disobedience? And like I said, there are many, many New Testament scriptures on non-resistance. Much more than on resistance and fighting.

But Believers can make the Word say anything, nowadays. If you really want something, you can find a way to justify it by the Word.

I support the young men and women who fight because I have to. I have to pay taxes to support them to fight unjust wars for fat, corrupt politicians who really want Afganistan for minerals in the ground and a potential oil pipeline. What I really wish is that America would bring them home. It is sickening that young men and women are dying for lies and deceit. My two sons may resist and go to jail or they might not. Don't know till they are faced with it.

What do you see as you read the Scriptures? It is not that vague, it's more clearer than you think.

The answers to all your questions are really quite simple. Do we really believe the sermon on the mount as Jesus taught it? Or do we add what if`s because maybe Jesus didn't understand what life now days would be like? Of course not, and either does the NT Church whose beloved homeland was occupied by a foreign army (Romans). I don't see where the NT Church rose up and battled in the flesh.

Before you even go off to war, ask yourself how you do in traffic when you cut someone off and they give you the single digit salute. Are your attitudes Christlike towards all men? We are supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit, right?

2Pet 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world.

Partakers of the divine nature.

Hmm, remember the wristband, WWJD. Not what we think He would do, but WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

Yeah sure, I know. He would want to be a Navy Seal.

We are all still so worldly even though we profess to have the Holy Spirit.

Look up the Scriptures Skinhead, they will hit you square in the face.

[YYZ Skinhead]

(09-24-2010 05:09 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  If one is drafted, I believe they need to be obedient to Scripture. I have varying opinions about serving in the military. However; I will support the men and women who serve, if that is their choice. They have fought valiantly for our country and many have paid the ultimate sacrifice with their lives.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

I know there are several more Scripts! Anyone?

Those verses (particularly Romans 13:1-2) are something else about which I wonder. Are NT believers expected to follow an evil government? Israelite armies destroyed nations whose rulers sanctioned burning children alive in sacrifice to their gods, but Jesus subjugated Himself to a sadistic, fascist Pagan dictator who crucified hundreds of people. Does God expect modern people to obey genocidal occupational governments like the Nazis and Sudanese, and atheistic communist/fascist nations like China? How can rulers led by Satan be ordained of God (it feels blasphemous to ask)?

[sheep wrecked]

(09-26-2010 07:44 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


Those verses (particularly Romans 13:1-2) are something else about which I wonder. Are NT believers expected to follow an evil government? Israelite armies destroyed nations whose rulers sanctioned burning children alive in sacrifice to their gods, but Jesus subjugated Himself to a sadistic, fascist Pagan dictator who crucified hundreds of people. Does God expect modern people to obey genocidal occupational governments like the Nazis and Sudanese, and atheistic communist/fascist nations like China? How can rulers led by Satan be ordained of God (it feels blasphemous to ask)?

Consider who Paul was writing to > people that were under the domination of a most heathen/pagan government who devised death by crucifixion. He was writing to Christians and said "every soul". Crucifixion was one of the most cruel, demonic methods of death. The Cesears thot they were gods and the mythological deities were their belief system. In 70 AD when they surrounded Jerusalem, they murdered a million Jews and burned down their city and their temple. The rest fled for their lives. The history of Nero [mid first century] is full of violence, lies, schemes and murders of his own household. This was about the time that Paul wrote the book of Romans.

What government is not evil? Paul states the God set them in place and we are to be obedient to the laws of the land.

[heb13-13]

World War II - American Christians blowing away German Christians and vice-versa. Whose side was Jesus Christ on?

Either we are Peacemakers or we are not.

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

If you read Martyrs Mirror you will read testimonies of Roman Soldiers that became Christians and would rather endure torture and death than continue to kill.

VITALUS, BURIED ALIVE AT RAVENNA FOR THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST; AND HIS WIFE BEATEN TO DEATH WITH STICKS, AT MILAN, ABOUT A. D. 99 http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs012.htm

There are many more testimonies.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The truth in this scripture is that His kingdom is not of this world. Why would we want to defend the kingdoms, corrupt ones at that, that lie in the power of the evil one?

When Romania was invaded by Russia, Richard Wurmbrand handed out tracts rather than hand out (shoot) bullets.

Christians must be differentiated by every other false religion in the world and lining up in battle to shoot other Christians is not the way to make a difference. Christianity is the only belief that says "love your enemies", and "render not evil for evil".

We are not talking cowardice here. We are talking courage of convictions and not being ashamed to follow Jesus Christ and show people that His Kingdom really is not of this world.

Anyway, Skinhead or any other young man or woman, has to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead them to do the right thing in keeping with God's Holy Word.

---

Quote:Those verses (particularly Romans 13:1-2) are something else about which I wonder. Are NT believers expected to follow an evil government? Israelite armies destroyed nations whose rulers sanctioned burning children alive in sacrifice to their gods, but Jesus subjugated Himself to a sadistic, fascist Pagan dictator who crucified hundreds of people. Does God expect modern people to obey genocidal occupational governments like the Nazis and Sudanese, and atheistic communist/fascist nations like China? How can rulers led by Satan be ordained of God (it feels blasphemous to ask)?

Consider who Paul was writing to > people that were under the domination of a most heathen/pagan government who devised death by crucifixion. He was writing to Christians and said "every soul". Crucifixion was one of the most cruel, demonic methods of death. The Cesears thot they were gods and the mythological deities were their belief system. In 70 AD when they surrounded Jerusalem, they murdered a million Jews and burned down their city and their temple. The rest fled for their lives. The history of Nero [mid first century] is full of violence, lies, schemes and murders of his own household. This was about the time that Paul wrote the book of Romans.

What government is not evil? Paul states the God set them in place and we are to be obedient to the laws of the land.
[/quote]

Sheep, you are right, Paul was writing to Christians and there is no record of Christians being conscripted to fight.

The handful of true believers (relative to a nation's population) will not make any difference in the total number of the military. Unsaved people and some mistaken Christians will do what it takes to save their "country". I think it is very dangerous, eternally dangerous for a Believer to kill. There are not any explicit verses that support this. THe Lord told us to pay our taxes and basically to obey the laws of the land, but when you are being told to obey a law that goes against a higher law (law of love), then you are bound to obey God.

In Obamacare, there is a provision that Doctors will be required to perform abortions. Any Doctors!! Does not matter what your convictions are. Well, there is a higher law, right? There are other scriptures that supercede Romans 13 and Titus 3:1. Titus 3:1 at the end says, "to be ready to every good work". That is the key, "good work".

[YYZ Skinhead]

(09-26-2010 08:47 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  
Consider who Paul was writing to > people that were under the domination of a most heathen/pagan government who devised death by crucifixion. He was writing to Christians and said "every soul". Crucifixion was one of the most cruel, demonic methods of death. The Cesears thot they were gods and the mythological deities were their belief system. In 70 AD when they surrounded Jerusalem, they murdered a million Jews and burned down their city and their temple. The rest fled for their lives. The history of Nero [mid first century] is full of violence, lies, schemes and murders of his own household. This was about the time that Paul wrote the book of Romans.

What government is not evil? Paul states the God set them in place and we are to be obedient to the laws of the land.

I think I get it now--I remembered some of the Old Testament monarchs like the Pharaohs and Nebuchadnezzar who considered themselves gods, and God permitted them to rule the Israelites for a while before destroying their empires. Joseph, Moses and Daniel were all subject to the Pagan rulers of their day while they were living in Pagan countries, to the point of willingly being thrown into prison and the lions' den. I think there is a verse that says God used Moses' Pharaoh as an example to show that humans are not gods, the way the plagues were used to show the powerlessness of the Egyptian nature gods.

Of course, all the governments in history which have raised up themselves above God's Rule and oppressed God's people have fallen spectacularly (Egypt, Babylon, Rome, Nazis, the Soviet Union et al). Humans are inherently sinners--I had forgotten this fact --and Satan is the god of this world, so it follows that all human-led governments are evil.

[heb13-13]

[/color]

(09-27-2010 02:42 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  

(09-26-2010 08:47 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  
Consider who Paul was writing to > people that were under the domination of a most heathen/pagan government who devised death by crucifixion. He was writing to Christians and said "every soul". Crucifixion was one of the most cruel, demonic methods of death. The Cesears thot they were gods and the mythological deities were their belief system. In 70 AD when they surrounded Jerusalem, they murdered a million Jews and burned down their city and their temple. The rest fled for their lives. The history of Nero [mid first century] is full of violence, lies, schemes and murders of his own household. This was about the time that Paul wrote the book of Romans.

What government is not evil? Paul states the God set them in place and we are to be obedient to the laws of the land.

I think I get it now--I remembered some of the Old Testament monarchs like the Pharaohs and Nebuchadnezzar who considered themselves gods, and God permitted them to rule the Israelites for a while before destroying their empires. Joseph, Moses and Daniel were all subject to the Pagan rulers of their day while they were living in Pagan countries, to the point of willingly being thrown into prison and the lions' den. I think there is a verse that says God used Moses' Pharaoh as an example to show that humans are not gods, the way the plagues were used to show the powerlessness of the Egyptian nature gods.

Of course, all the governments in history which have raised up themselves above God's Rule and oppressed God's people have fallen spectacularly (Egypt, Babylon, Rome, Nazis, the Soviet Union et al). Humans are inherently sinners--I had forgotten this fact --and Satan is the god of this world, so it follows that all human-led governments are evil.

There are some things in Romans 13 that need to be pointed out. Mainly the context.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.”—On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.

“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168.

[/b]

[sheep wrecked]

I believe that most Americans who join the military by their own choice and are Christians believe that they are serving God. Growing up in a Christian home, with both my Grandfather who served in WWI and my Dad who served in WWII, we were taught that America is a Christian nation and those who fought valiantly for freedom were on God's side. My son-in-law's Grandfather also served in WWI, was captured and spent 2 yrs in a German war camp where he suffered such extreme trauma that for the rest of his life, the very mention of the war would instigate severe nightmares to the point that his wife asked her family to stop asking Grandpa about his war experiences. Yet he died a proud American with full honors a few years ago and full military funeral.

I understand all this from a different viewpoint today and I agree that fighting for an earthly kingdom is not what we are supposed to focus on or participate in. However; that does not diminish how I view men and women in the military who believe they have fought valiantly and given the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and I will continue to support them as individuals. Jesus said that if we loved one another enough to lay our lives down - that was real love. From my perspective, it's gonna be mighty hard to tell Christian grieving parents that their son or daughter died for nothing and should be considered murderers for defending our country out of love for their fellowman and their country - no matter how misplaced we feel that is.

The issue is very complex and my personal opinion really matters little in the scope of things. God has used service to bring men and women to Christ in the military too many times to count. He is bigger than what people believe and practice in this regard. We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart.

[heb13-13]

(09-28-2010 08:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I believe that most Americans who join the military by their own choice and are Christians believe that they are serving God. Growing up in a Christian home, with both my Grandfather who served in WWI and my Dad who served in WWII, we were taught that America is a Christian nation and those who fought valiantly for freedom were on God's side. My son-in-law's Grandfather also served in WWI, was captured and spent 2 yrs in a German war camp where he suffered such extreme trauma that for the rest of his life, the very mention of the war would instigate severe nightmares to the point that his wife asked her family to stop asking Grandpa about his war experiences. Yet he died a proud American with full honors a few years ago and full military funeral.

I understand all this from a different viewpoint today and I agree that fighting for an earthly kingdom is not what we are supposed to focus on or participate in. However; that does not diminish how I view men and women in the military who believe they have fought valiantly and given the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and I will continue to support them as individuals. Jesus said that if we loved one another enough to lay our lives down - that was real love. From my perspective, it's gonna be mighty hard to tell Christian grieving parents that their son or daughter died for nothing and should be considered murderers for defending our country out of love for their fellowman and their country - no matter how misplaced we feel that is.

The issue is very complex and my personal opinion really matters little in the scope of things. God has used service to bring men and women to Christ in the military too many times to count. He is bigger than what people believe and practice in this regard. We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart.

Sheep says:
"The issue is very complex". Sounds like the interpretation of this is that you are afraid to stand with Jesus for fear of people calling you unpatriotic or a coward. This issue is only complex because we make it complex. In the NT, the issue is not complex.

Sheep says:
"However; that does not diminish how I view men and women in the military who believe they have fought valiantly and given the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and I will continue to support them as individuals."

But this is not what Skinhead's question is about. We have to be led by the Word and keep our emotions out of this. I agree it is a very emotional issue, but even more, we have to know what God's Word says on this subject, the examples Jesus Christ Himself, of the Apostles and the early church, also. More importantly than anything is what God's Word (NT) says.

Sheep says:
"The issue is very complex and my personal opinion really matters little in the scope of things. God has used service to bring men and women to Christ in the military too many times to count. "

Skinhead's question is not about whether God has used service to bring men and women to Christ. I came to Christ in the service. People come to Christ in Heroin dens, also. Let's stick with the topic regarding what Skinhead brought up and not worry if the Word reveals that our personal emotional beliefs might be wrong. And if God shows you some truth, why would you fear living that truth?

Maybe because of this: "From my perspective, it's gonna be mighty hard to tell Christian grieving parents that their son or daughter died for nothing and should be considered murderers for defending our country out of love for their fellowman and their country - no matter how misplaced we feel that is."

Well, I have never told anyone that their son or daughter died for nothing. That would be a cruel thing to do. And to insinuate that people who believe in not killing in worldly wars would do this is also wrong. Maybe there have been some people that do this. What comes to mind is that crazy Baptist preacher and his big church of 20 members that pickets funerals. That is not the Spirit of Christ, either. That is not the love that Romans 13 talks about. And how do you feel about Romans 13, where the Spirit of God says through Paul, "Thou shalt not kill".

So, let's get back on topic.

We need to stick to God's Word because that is what Skinhead is asking about. Is it ok with God if we go to war and kill people.

Here is a real life example: My wife has a dear friend whose last name is Helfenbein. Her father was a German living in Germany during the start of WW II. He was a Christian and the Christians were told that they would be shot if they did not join the military as "ordered". They joined.

In their first battle, a large group of them (Christians), raised the white flag and surrendered. He spent the rest of the war in an American POW camp. That is where he learned English, also. After the war, he moved to Minnesota and raised his family.

Who is going to judge this man and the other Christians for what they did?

Even John the Baptist weighs in on this.
"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages" (Luke 3:14)

Remember, this is ALL the inspired Word of God.

Yes, be content with your wages and don’t covet the Army’s $20,000 signing bonus to be a hired killer.

Patriotism and Christianity are not synonymous, although we are basically told they are. And when Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for another" has nothing to do with fighting in wars. We have taken that beautiful word from the Spirit of God and it is used countless thousands of time to justify war.

Anyway, I know how emotional this is. I have been talking to people for 30 years about this and I have been called many, many names by these Believers that want to be part of waging war. They would rather slander and defame me than give up their belief in fighting and killing for corrupt governments. And all the while, they don't even see what is rising up out of their heart when they are getting angry with me.

A pity that most of the young men and women think they are fighting for something noble, but it usually turns out to be something that has to do with greed and power. Well, that is exactly how all the kingdoms of this world operate: on greed and power.

Of course all wars are "framed" in the most noblest of terms, otherwise how would you be able to convince those who believe that Patriotism is the same as Christianity, to fight?

Well, I just want you to know that I love my brothers and sisters that want to have the freedom to join the military and fight. I just think they are wrong. Just like they think I am wrong. But, I have never disfellowshipped from someone that thinks this way. Sometimes, it is not until they are in the heat of battle, that they realize they may have been wrong. Not because they are in fear of dying, but because they are experiencing their heart becoming harder and harder.

In the end, God will judge us all, but I believe He has given us clear direction in His Word.

One last thing, it is interesting that the Lord saw fit to put into His word this statement. "neither accuse any falsely".

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages" (Luke 3:14)

I think the reason that He put that in the Word is because in the heat of battle with soldiers fearing for their lives, they have a tendency (and this is documented in all wars) out of fear to accuse someone of being a terrorist when they may be completely innocent. And the next thing you know, they are dead.

Maybe, we should go all the way back to the beginning and just start with, "What are Christians"?

Because of the concept of "The Just War", the Pope knows that he can mobilize 1 billion Catholics to support a war that he supports. Islam is similar. The Grand Mullah or whatever the chief yahoo is called can do the same. But now we have Protestant preachers who have continually cemented this mindset in their followers and yes, they can do the same thing with their followers. Never is the Word talked about, except one verse. "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his brother".

The Catholics and Muslims have similar beliefs. In one you get a free ticket to heaven and 72 virgins.

What we need are followers of God and not followers of men.

Statements like this never cease to amaze me. Doesn't sound like the Christ that I follow.

Rory wrote:
I was an American solider. I served as a Marine Scout Sniper in Vietnam. I am a follower of Christ, Southern Baptist by birth. I had 67 comfirmed kills in Vietnam and 82 probables. I'm comfident that when my time on earth is done I'll be in Heaven.
I do my best to live my life according to God's teachings. How can I say this after having killed? I viewed it as saving lives. For each life I took of the enemy, I saved lives in the long run. I killed the enemy before he killed me or one of my fellow soldiers.

Rory

Here is his webpage so you know I did not make this up.
http://greensboring.com/viewtopic.php?f=...7&start=25