War

[heb13-13]

(09-28-2010 08:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I believe that most Americans who join the military by their own choice and are Christians believe that they are serving God. Growing up in a Christian home, with both my Grandfather who served in WWI and my Dad who served in WWII, we were taught that America is a Christian nation and those who fought valiantly for freedom were on God's side. My son-in-law's Grandfather also served in WWI, was captured and spent 2 yrs in a German war camp where he suffered such extreme trauma that for the rest of his life, the very mention of the war would instigate severe nightmares to the point that his wife asked her family to stop asking Grandpa about his war experiences. Yet he died a proud American with full honors a few years ago and full military funeral.

I understand all this from a different viewpoint today and I agree that fighting for an earthly kingdom is not what we are supposed to focus on or participate in. However; that does not diminish how I view men and women in the military who believe they have fought valiantly and given the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and I will continue to support them as individuals. Jesus said that if we loved one another enough to lay our lives down - that was real love. From my perspective, it's gonna be mighty hard to tell Christian grieving parents that their son or daughter died for nothing and should be considered murderers for defending our country out of love for their fellowman and their country - no matter how misplaced we feel that is.

The issue is very complex and my personal opinion really matters little in the scope of things. God has used service to bring men and women to Christ in the military too many times to count. He is bigger than what people believe and practice in this regard. We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart.

Sheep says:
"The issue is very complex". Sounds like the interpretation of this is that you are afraid to stand with Jesus for fear of people calling you unpatriotic or a coward. This issue is only complex because we make it complex. In the NT, the issue is not complex.

Sheep says:
"However; that does not diminish how I view men and women in the military who believe they have fought valiantly and given the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and I will continue to support them as individuals."

But this is not what Skinhead's question is about. We have to be led by the Word and keep our emotions out of this. I agree it is a very emotional issue, but even more, we have to know what God's Word says on this subject, the examples Jesus Christ Himself, of the Apostles and the early church, also. More importantly than anything is what God's Word (NT) says.

Sheep says:
"The issue is very complex and my personal opinion really matters little in the scope of things. God has used service to bring men and women to Christ in the military too many times to count. "

Skinhead's question is not about whether God has used service to bring men and women to Christ. I came to Christ in the service. People come to Christ in Heroin dens, also. Let's stick with the topic regarding what Skinhead brought up and not worry if the Word reveals that our personal emotional beliefs might be wrong. And if God shows you some truth, why would you fear living that truth?

Maybe because of this: "From my perspective, it's gonna be mighty hard to tell Christian grieving parents that their son or daughter died for nothing and should be considered murderers for defending our country out of love for their fellowman and their country - no matter how misplaced we feel that is."

Well, I have never told anyone that their son or daughter died for nothing. That would be a cruel thing to do. And to insinuate that people who believe in not killing in worldly wars would do this is also wrong. Maybe there have been some people that do this. What comes to mind is that crazy Baptist preacher and his big church of 20 members that pickets funerals. That is not the Spirit of Christ, either. That is not the love that Romans 13 talks about. And how do you feel about Romans 13, where the Spirit of God says through Paul, "Thou shalt not kill".

So, let's get back on topic.

We need to stick to God's Word because that is what Skinhead is asking about. Is it ok with God if we go to war and kill people.

Here is a real life example: My wife has a dear friend whose last name is Helfenbein. Her father was a German living in Germany during the start of WW II. He was a Christian and the Christians were told that they would be shot if they did not join the military as "ordered". They joined.

In their first battle, a large group of them (Christians), raised the white flag and surrendered. He spent the rest of the war in an American POW camp. That is where he learned English, also. After the war, he moved to Minnesota and raised his family.

Who is going to judge this man and the other Christians for what they did?

Even John the Baptist weighs in on this.
"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages" (Luke 3:14)

Remember, this is ALL the inspired Word of God.

Yes, be content with your wages and don’t covet the Army’s $20,000 signing bonus to be a hired killer.

Patriotism and Christianity are not synonymous, although we are basically told they are. And when Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for another" has nothing to do with fighting in wars. We have taken that beautiful word from the Spirit of God and it is used countless thousands of time to justify war.

Anyway, I know how emotional this is. I have been talking to people for 30 years about this and I have been called many, many names by these Believers that want to be part of waging war. They would rather slander and defame me than give up their belief in fighting and killing for corrupt governments. And all the while, they don't even see what is rising up out of their heart when they are getting angry with me.

A pity that most of the young men and women think they are fighting for something noble, but it usually turns out to be something that has to do with greed and power. Well, that is exactly how all the kingdoms of this world operate: on greed and power.

Of course all wars are "framed" in the most noblest of terms, otherwise how would you be able to convince those who believe that Patriotism is the same as Christianity, to fight?

Well, I just want you to know that I love my brothers and sisters that want to have the freedom to join the military and fight. I just think they are wrong. Just like they think I am wrong. But, I have never disfellowshipped from someone that thinks this way. Sometimes, it is not until they are in the heat of battle, that they realize they may have been wrong. Not because they are in fear of dying, but because they are experiencing their heart becoming harder and harder.

In the end, God will judge us all, but I believe He has given us clear direction in His Word.

One last thing, it is interesting that the Lord saw fit to put into His word this statement. "neither accuse any falsely".

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages" (Luke 3:14)

I think the reason that He put that in the Word is because in the heat of battle with soldiers fearing for their lives, they have a tendency (and this is documented in all wars) out of fear to accuse someone of being a terrorist when they may be completely innocent. And the next thing you know, they are dead.

Maybe, we should go all the way back to the beginning and just start with, "What are Christians"?

Because of the concept of "The Just War", the Pope knows that he can mobilize 1 billion Catholics to support a war that he supports. Islam is similar. The Grand Mullah or whatever the chief yahoo is called can do the same. But now we have Protestant preachers who have continually cemented this mindset in their followers and yes, they can do the same thing with their followers. Never is the Word talked about, except one verse. "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his brother".

The Catholics and Muslims have similar beliefs. In one you get a free ticket to heaven and 72 virgins.

What we need are followers of God and not followers of men.

Statements like this never cease to amaze me. Doesn't sound like the Christ that I follow.

Rory wrote:
I was an American solider. I served as a Marine Scout Sniper in Vietnam. I am a follower of Christ, Southern Baptist by birth. I had 67 comfirmed kills in Vietnam and 82 probables. I'm comfident that when my time on earth is done I'll be in Heaven.
I do my best to live my life according to God's teachings. How can I say this after having killed? I viewed it as saving lives. For each life I took of the enemy, I saved lives in the long run. I killed the enemy before he killed me or one of my fellow soldiers.

Rory

Here is his webpage so you know I did not make this up.
http://greensboring.com/viewtopic.php?f=...7&start=25