What's the True Name of God?
04-22-2011, 10:02 PM
RE: What's the True Name of God?
(04-22-2011 08:29 PM)Mo MHuintir Wrote: I hate to jump in (without reading more) and comment on something that has probably been covered extensively, .. A great Christian Bible scholar by the name of Peter Whitfield speculated in his writings (in 1748) that the vowels have always existed in written form, since the Torah was given to Moses. But just like today, the leadership of Israel hid the pronounciation of the name. Bible scholars today know that Orthodox Jews will not pronounce the name, saying instead HaShem, Adonai, or Elohim. The State of Israel lists the official name of God as Yehovah, which is an accurate rendering based on the Masoretic vowel points. But since we know that the Jews won't say it outloud, and have actively hidden it for thousands of years (based on their own admission), why would anyone believe that the vowel points placed under YHWH are the true ones. Why think the Creators name (or any theophoric derivative) begins with a Yah, Ye, or a Yo? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of hiding it, if they went ahead and recorded the correct pointing?
Ahh, the lying scribes argument. Yes this stuff has been extensively covered. And if you read the prior posts, you will see that the Name was said in the Temple, but it was protected from wrong use outside the Temple.
Regarding the lying scribes issue..... I will post in from the HR FAQS and MYTHS... > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9a2.htm#lxx
>>>.....As far as the assertion that the LXX is more accurate than the supposedly “intentionally corrupted” Masoretic text family, and is closer to the Hebrew Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts found at Qumran, it is easy to disprove.
Emmanuel Tov, who is a not only recognized as a pre-eminent Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, but also highly recognized as an authority on the LXX, has put together a parallel aligned LXX/Masoretic text program that is recognized and utilized by textual scholars worldwide. Mr Tov reviewed all of the manuscripts found at Qumran, and did a textual comparison and recorded his results. They are as follows:
There were forty six books of Torah related manuscripts, which were used for this particular comparison. Of the forty six, twenty four (52%) were aligned with the Masoretic textual family. Seventeen of the forty six (37%) did not align to the MT, the LXX, or the Samaritan Torah. Three manuscripts (6.5%) were aligned to the Samaritan Torah, and a mere two manuscripts (4.5%) aligned with the LXX.
Many attempt to use Jeremiah 8:8 as the 'proof' of this accusation, while also stating that someone was hired to rewrite everything by 100 AD to overturn the messianic claims of Jesus found in the LXX, and the corrupt Masoretic texts are claimed to be based on those alleged writings. Here's Jeremiah 8:8:
Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
However the context isn't about them writing the Word of God, but merely promoting their own vanities and prophets were giving false prophesies and claiming them to be of God.
Jeremiah 23:30-32 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:34-36 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35. Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36. And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God
The book of Jeremiah was about Judah going after idols and Baal and not keeping God's commandments. If we go back to chapter 7 we see God calling His people back to obedience to Him and the realities of their disobedience and the coming consequences. Let's go back to chapter 7 and see what is happening:
Jeremiah 7:1-3 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2. Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD. 3. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these. 5. For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;...
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; 10. And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? 11. Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
7:26-28 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. ... 28. But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
Jeremiah 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return? 5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
Jeremiah 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? [/b]every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle 7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
8. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
9. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? 10. Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 11. For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jeremiah 9:13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;
Jeremiah 9:14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
Verse 8:7 points out that the people do not know the requirements of the Lord, not that they do not have them. Even when the scribes were copying the books of the Law and the Prophets available at that time, (about 600 + BC) it meant nothing to them--it was vanity. They didn't need to change anything, just as people today don't need to actually change the Word of God, although many do, they merely have to interpret it incorrectly or ignore it. The scribe, teachers, and prophets were claiming everything was good with what they were doing according to the Law, when in fact it was all lies to the people. And Jeremiah verses 8:9 shows they were rejecting the word of the Lord and applying it falsely, not corrupting/rewriting the actual text.
If the messianic prophecies had all been changed then Jeremiah would not contain any...
Jeremiah 23:1-6 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2. Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. 5.Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
If we look closely at what is being said in Jeremiah 8:8, we note this:.
Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain(KJV)
Jeremiah 8:8 showing Strong's Hebrew numbers:
HowH349 do ye say,H559 WeH587 are wise,H2450 and the lawH8451 of the LORDH3068 is withH854 us? Lo,H2009 certainlyH403 in vainH8267 madeH6213 he it; the penH5842 of the scribesH5608 is in vain.H8267
From the Jewish Publication Society Bible of 1917, meaning the OT:
Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes. (JPS 1917 electronic version)
8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of HaShem is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes. (JPS 1917-hareidi.org)
Eichah tomru chachamim anachnu v'torot YHVH itanu ;achen hineh lasheker asah, et sheker sofrim
This seems to imply that the false application and teaching of the Law by the scribes were making the Law vain .The Hebrew word lasheker in Strong's concordance means it can be a lie, vanity, sham.
Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
The scribes were responsible for teaching the Law and its spiritual application. By the misapplication and wrong teaching they were making the law vain, a sham or a lie. Jesus accused the scribes of the same thing in the New Testament.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Thanks to Jesus himself we know that the Bible we have with us today is true and to be trusted. He said that he did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets but to fulfill them, so we know that the prophets' writings as were available in the time of Jesus, and before, were true and authentic. Otherwise Jesus would have brought out that point. Instead He affirms their witness and states that He himself is the fulfillment of what they pointed to.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
We also know that the New Testament, which encompassed the writings concerning Christ and what the New Covenant entails is also viewed as Scripture inspired by God and protected...."
3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|Messages In This Thread|
RE: What's the True Name of God? - strefanash - 12-31-2008, 01:33 AM
RE: What's the True Name of God? - strefanash - 12-31-2008, 02:04 PM
RE: What's the True Name of God? - strefanash - 12-31-2008, 10:35 PM
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Vic - 04-22-2011 10:02 PM
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