What's the True Name of God?

[Vic]

(04-23-2011 12:27 AM)Mo MHuintir Wrote:  Jeremiah does refer to the written word. When you stated;
"However the context isn't about them writing the Word of God, but merely promoting their own vanities and prophets were giving false prophesies and claiming them to be of God."

that was an incorrect interpretation. Jeremiah does comment about the false prophets and their lying words;

...But in 8:8, Jeremiah makes it a point to say "et sheqer" the lying pen. In other places he refers to lying words, but here he specifically says a pen. By use of the waw consecutive, he ties the lying pen contextually to the torah, the written word of Yhwh.

When Yhwh gave Israel the Torah (the 10 words or utterances); Moses himself testified,

These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. Deut 5:22 KJV

"and he added no more."

Who then added the other 603?
This is the heavy burden that Christ referred to in Matt 23:13. Namely, the oral Mishpah, that would become the Torah Mishnah. It is a corruption of the original Torah given to Moses,

"Love Yhwh with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."

Hi Bill,

I believe it is imperative to always look at the context, which is shown in my prior post concerning what ch 7 and 8 were about and other passages, what was being presented previously about Israel's disobedience and sin.

And please look carefully at this, and this is totally my understanding.:

Jer 8:8 How do ye say, [God asking Israel, how can you say] We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? [He had already pointed out they weren't abiding the Law and serving Him] Lo, certainly in vain made he it; [God made the Law and it was obviously in vain or pointless because Israel was rejecting it] the pen of the scribes is in vain. [therefore, the scribes' job of copying the Book, was totally in vain because they weren't abiding it]

Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: [some were ashamed and dismayed] lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; [Israel had REJECTED the word of the Lord--- if they had changed it or made it all up, as you are implying, I think God would have said---they have CHANGED the word of the Lord] and what wisdom is in them?

rejected >

H3988
מאס
mâ'as
BDB Definition:
1) to reject, despise, refuse
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to reject, refuse
1a2) to despise
1b) (Niphal) to be rejected
2) (Niphal) to flow, run
Part of Speech:
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1139, 1140

In order to have rejected the word of the Lord and the law, that means it had to be there for them. Vain means more than lying; sheqer means more than lying. You have to look at the context.

Doing something "in vain" means that something being done has the exact same outcome as if it had never been done. It's pointless, or fruitless. Copying the Scriptures as the scribes were called to do, and claiming to believe and live to them was totally in vain, because they weren't living to God, but to themselves. They rejected God's word. They didn't change it, they just didn't apply it or live by it, even though they claimed to, as the related passages show.

H8267
שׁקר
sheqer
BDB Definition:
1) lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood
1a) deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)
1b) deceit, fraud, wrong
1b1) fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)
1c) falsehood (injurious in testimony)
1c1) testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely
1d) falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)
1e) lie, falsehood (in general)
1e1) false tongue
1f) in vain
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H8266

shaqar on the other hand means
H8266
שׁקר
shâqar
BDB Definition:
1) to do or deal falsely, be false, trick, cheat
1a) (Piel) to deal falsely
1b) (Qal) to deal falsely
Part of Speech: verb

Let's see some parallel concepts about claiming to abide the laws but in fact were not and instead were teaching things that were contrary to it. The law, meaning the given Sinai covenant is still there and provable by the Scripture God provided, but, ...

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

transgress

G3845
παραβαίνω
parabainō
Thayer Definition:
1) to go by the side of
2) to go past or pass over without touching a thing
3) to overstep, neglect, violate, transgress
4) so to go past as to turn aside from
4a) to depart, leave, be turned from
5) one who abandons his trust
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3844 and the base of G939

in vain

G3155
μάτην
matēn
mat'-ane
Accusative case of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, that is, unsuccessful search, or else of punishment); folly, that is, (adverbially) to no purpose: - in vain.

G3155
μάτην
matēn
Thayer Definition:
1) in vain, fruitlessly
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: accus. of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, i.e. unsuccessful search, or else of punishment)

none effect

G208
ἀκυρόω
akuroō
ak-oo-ro'-o
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G2964; to invalidate: - disannul, make of none effect.

Psa 119:125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

made void H6565
פּרר
pârar
BDB Definition:
1) to break, frustrate
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to break, violate
1a2) to frustrate, make ineffectual
1b) (Hophal)
1b1) to be frustrated
1b2) to be broken
1b3) to break
1c) (Pilpel) to break to bits, shatter
2) to split, divide
2a) (Qal) to split, crack through
2b) (Poel) to break apart
2c) (Hithpoel) to be split, be cracked through
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1829, 1830, 1831

If the scribes had corrupted or changed the Scriptures and none of it is of God, then what logic would it be, to put a verse in saying that it was all lies?

If some of it is of God, could you please tell me how we know that, and who determines what is and is not of God?

If the intent was to mislead and deceive people as you say, why would the scribes say they lied? Wouldn't that be like shooting oneself in the foot? Like--hey I planned to deceive you all with what I am writing, but not to worry, you can believe it's true.

Does that sound realistic at all?

And if they did as you say, there is not one Scripture we can claim as being of God. Because not one person would be able to discern the difference of what was given by God -- and which then the scribes allowed to exist in amongst their lies--- and what was all fabrication, Because the scribes recorded all the Scriptures. That means, we have no Scriptures. That kind of finishes the history from Creation, to Israel, to Judaism and Christianity; declaration and belief in God and certainly Jesus Christ. Because as He said,

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

I kind of think God is much bigger than that.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? :2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 27:34 These are the commandments, which ]the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Psa 78:1 <Maschil of Asaph.> Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Psa 78:3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
Psa 78:4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
Psa 78:6 That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.