What's the True Name of God?

[Vic]

(04-24-2011 10:24 AM)Mo MHuintir Wrote:  I must say, I appreciate the time you took to respond to this post. I know how long it takes to do that kind of research.

Thank you Bill. I always think it's best to not just post opinion. God's Word can defend itself, and facts and languages issues can be discussed.

Quote:Sheqer (8267) is used over 100 times throughout the scriptures. It is rendered in the following ways;
false (20 times), falsely (13x), falsehood (13x), lying (22x), lie[s](28x), wrongfully (4x), without a cause (1x), deceitful (2x), deceit (1x), feighnedly (1x), prophecy a lie (1x), liar (1x), and lastly, vain (6x).

Since the definition for “vain” is to be useless or meaningless, I don’t think the KJV translators made the best choice when choosing this word. Especially since the word “sheqer” is translated almost 90% of the time to mean “false” or “a lie.”

In essence the translators were saying, it was useless for God to have made the Torah, because the scribes have rendered it meaningless by their rejection of His word.
You made a similar point when you said;
“They rejected God's word. They didn't change it, they just didn't apply it or live by it, even though they claimed to, as the related passages show.”

Bill, I am not sure where you got your stats for Sheqer use, but this shows what was used in the KJV from the KJC [107 times] and presented in this order.> false (20 times), lies [18] lying [18] falsehood (13x), falsely (13x); lie[8x], vain [6]; wrongfully (4x), deceitful (2x), cause (1x), deceit (1x), feignedly (1x), liar (1x),without [1].

The point is Bill, it isn't always used for false or a lie, just as you have shown. It does have other uses, as with most Hebrew words ( and just as in english and other languages), and this verse shows one of the 14 uses. You missed that the verses that use vain or in vain, are

Exo 5:9, 1Sa 25:21, Psa 33:17, Jer 3:23, Jer 8:8 (2)

Look at the context of a few of these with that usage.

Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
Jer 3:23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
Jer 3:24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
Jer 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

1Sa 25:21 Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good.

Even traditional Judaism stresses that context determines meaning in Hebrew. Context shows it to be 'in vain.' Context plays a huge part in translating from one language to another. You have to know and understand the language you are translating from as well as the language being translated to.

Quote:You wrote (Part a):
“If the scribes had corrupted or changed the Scriptures and none of it is of God,...”

This is an incorrect statement. I never said “none of it is of God.”

The problem is Bill, you aren't saying what is of God and what all isn't of God. You are suggesting that pretty much all of what is attributed to Moses' writing other than the 10 commandments, to be not of God but' by 'the lying pen of the scribes'.

My question is, how do you know that? How do you determine what is of God in the Scriptures, and what isn't. How do you know what scribes and when, they added to and took away from the Scriptures? What year in history did they allegedly do this? How many books in the bible have been tampered with? How do you know what is the true Word of God?

Which scribes added the verse about the scribes pen being in vain Bill? How do you know it wasn't just added in to cause confusion, based on it meaning as you say, the scribes wrote lies into the Scriptures? Which things are lies, when and how...

Quote:(Part b); “....then what logic would it be, to put a verse in saying that it was all lies?

This is an overstatement. The verse doesn’t say it was -all- lies.

You wrote, “If the intent was to mislead and deceive people as you say, why would the scribes say they lied?”

I can only believe that the scribes who later recorded the accusation Jeremiah made, felt compelled to do so by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't make any sense to me Bill. You have to be able to say which scribes deceived the people, what they changed and when, with clear documentation and absolute proof. Speculation doesn't cut it. And here's why. Aside from the very essence of believing that God gave His Word and protected it so we would have the record of all from Genesis 1:1 forward. But when God chose Israel, despite knowing they would disobey, follow other gods, rebel, through it all, they had the privilege of guarding the record of all those things God gave. It is believed that the Hebrew Scriptures were completed in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah--about 420bc [Ezra 7:14]

Ezr 7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him. Neh_8:1 2Ch_25:4; 2Ch_35:12; Neh_13:1

We know that copies of the original laws as given by God through Moses were duplicated by the levites and the king--by God's command.

Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
Deu 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
Deu 17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

That was the beginning of the sacred trust given to the Levites to safeguard the Scriptures. We know that Israel viewed the Scriptures as divinely inspired and sacred, and believed the warnings about not adding to or taking away from them...

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

We also know that Ezra and Nehemiah, for example, sourced the book of Moses, in

2Ch 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.

Ezr 6:18 And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.

Neh 13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;

Although the books were missing for a time, the writings of Moses, which contained all the law, were discovered in the Temple in the reign of Josiah, and which a high priest found 2 Ch 34:14, "a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses"

Ezra a priest, about 150 yrs after Jeremiah. He collected and put together all the sacred writings aka books of the law, and the prophets and the writings. The oldest material in the Bible is from about the 13th century BC. If the scribes had corrupted something in the actual historical writings, we can assume God would have conveyed exactly what through His prophets, and since the Jews knew how to identify as either a false or real prophet of God, acccording to the law of Moses.. God made no bones about rebuking them through the prophets for rebellion and rejecting His Word. Ezra compiled the sacred writings into 22 books--they placed the minor prophets as one, and a few other differences to arrive at that count.. The very definition of scribe was to count and record, and they did so by counting letters and spaces. Everything was safeguarded for accuracy.:

The thing is, because the people viewed the Scriptures as sacred and their job to protect them, even when they were in rebellion the scribes were still guardians of it all. Those 22 books, once compiled together by Ezra, were accepted as being canon. Partly because after Ezra and the minor prophets finished prophesying, the Jews believed the Spirit of God was removed, and no prophecies were made. That fully relates to the silence of 400 years between the Hebrew Bible and the fulfillment of those prophecies concerning Christ, starting with a 'voice crying in the wilderness', who was the fulfillment of Elijah to come, as Jesus said.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

THe thing is, if the writings were inaccurate, and had been tampered with, that means Jesus could not have used them or would have said they were not to be trusted, and which ones were not to be trusted. But instead, He quoted from them concerning Himself and said:

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

And what did Moses write concerning Christ for example:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his *****'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And Deu 18:15-19, etc.

Therefore, Bill, for you to suggest that what Moses wrote in those first five books of the Bible as being from 'lying scribes', means you must also not only disqualify the NT and all that Jesus said..., but must also include the Messianic prophecies.

Quote:You wrote;
And if they did as you say, there is not one Scripture we can claim as being of God. Because not one person would be able to discern the difference of what was given by God
Of course they would be able to discern, in the same way that you do. You have the Spirit of the living God in your heart! He, the Holy Spirit, is your truth filter.

Bill, the word kathab [H3789] is used 223 times in the KJB. As > written 138x ; write 35x; wrote 34x; describe 4x; described 2x; subscribe, 2; subscribed, 2 ; writest, 2 ; prescribed, 1; recorded, 1; writeth, 1; writing, 1

H5612 sêpher / siphrâh
>book 136x; letters, 16x; letter, 13x; evidence, 6x; bill, 4; learned, 3; books, 2; evidences, 2; learning, 2; register, 1; scroll 1x

God not only gave the things to be written down, it was for our learning, for having a record to be able to turn to about God, and to know the Truth of the Gospel, as well as a historical written record which can be counted on as being inspired and protected by God.

Exo 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua...

Jer 25:13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Joh 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The written Scriptures were given so we would not be bound to men's imaginations and made up doctrines. Rather we have the Word so we can prove our doctrine to it.

Quote:Since no man can pluck them out of his hand, how then can they be mislead by a scribe?

Since, “...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 8:38-39]..how can.the lying pen of the scribe prevail?

You wrote; “That means, we have no Scriptures.”

Before there were any scriptures, God credited Abraham with righteousness (James 2:23) and called him his friend, because he followed his Torah (Gen 26:5). That was about 500 years before the Torah was written.

God spoke directly to people in the Hebrew Scriptures. He spoke directly with Adam and Eve and Abraham and the prophets. He now speaks to us through the Scriptures with the Holy Spirit giving understanding. The apostles viewed the Hebrew Scriptures as true and Jesus commanded them to teach what He had taught them and then as the Holy Spirit taught. They were given a very specific task of laying the doctrinal foundations for the church while preaching the Gospel and the truth of the New Covenant. No one else can come up with new doctrine. It must be able to stand the test of Scripture. That is why it is recorded for us, plus the eyewitnesses of Christ with their testimony of Him needed to be recorded. You cannot equate what took place before Christ with what took place after Christ died and rose again. We now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give us the understanding that Jesus in person, 'opened their understanding'.

Quote:To get back to my original point, the fact that the scribes were accused by Jeremiah of lying, doesn’t surprise me since it ‘s common knowledge today that the Masoretes altered the vowel points of Yhwh (they lied) to deliberately hide the pronunciation of the name of God (contrary to God’s command of Ex 3:15). Then they lied about the secondary set of vowel points they used to replace the original and correct rendering. They were supposed to be those of “adonai,” but are not. So why should we believe that the current set of vowel points, that produce the sound “Ye ho” are genuine?
I don’t.

Here's the problem. Since you can't say when or who or what was 'changed' by the "lying scribes' you are on sinking sand. Because you said that they made up all the law of Moses-except the 10 commandments. Now you say the Masoretes are the culprits for changing the vowel points...so which is it? The canon was closed and included the first five books written by Moses which included all that we see today. The Masoretes didn't compile those, Ezra did, but he didnt write them. And that was After Jeremiah. So...who are the lying scribes that did that? And has there just been one series of liars after another and which ones are the ones to be trusted? Which ones of the books of the Bible are accurate? I really need to know.

Why would you believe that the virtually non existant prefix of yah for names to be accurate when salvation is 'H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh

Or is that all lies too? Is the Biblical Hebrew that has come down through the ages all lies? If not, which is the true Biblical Hebrew and how do you know? I really need some documentation here and not from such as Jeff Benner or similar. Thanks.