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The Mute Christian
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01-06-2011, 09:31 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2011 09:32 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #11
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RE: The Mute Christian
(01-06-2011 07:16 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Yes, it speaks of Christ. It refers specifically to Jesus. We can agree that Isaiah 53:10 refers only to Christ  I guess I just missed your point of posting that Scripture in the context of what you were saying. 
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01-07-2011, 12:13 AM
Post: #12
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RE: The Mute Christian
(01-06-2011 09:31 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(01-06-2011 07:16 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Yes, it speaks of Christ. It refers specifically to Jesus. Absolutely, refers to our wonderful Lord Jesus. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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01-11-2011, 06:32 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2011 06:34 PM by truth pick.)
Post: #13
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RE: The Mute Christian
(12-14-2010 02:48 PM)Mary Wrote: I downloaded this little book, written hundreds of years ago, from the Preachtheword.com website. It is quite challenging and well worth the read so far. The full title is: The Mute Christian under the Smarting Rod with Sovereign Antidotes against the Most Miserable Exigents (:6788 Hi! It's been awhile since I visited the forum. I wish I could come around more often! I was cruising around some of the threads and was surprised to see this book offered as something positve to read cause the title of it made me jump a mile high. Like when you get stuck with a pin  I sure don't want to offend anyone and I really do understand that people really want to love God and understand what He is about, but the whole smacking with a rod thing reminds me of my upbringing [Calvinism]  I was always afraid that God was gonna knock me to the ground for every little sin, for the little worm that I am. So this book takes on a kind of a sinister view of God, in my little old opinion, and one that I learned is not true at all.I would think if a so-called Christian is "dissatisfied, disquieted, and discomposed" then they don't have much peace and without the peace of Christ I am not sure one can survive. Why would we have to be silent/mute when we already know that God is "in control"?  Actually, I am not sure what being "mute christian" means. I have never been mute before when it comes to God. I figure if He lives in me, and has made me His friend, then why would I have to be mute in times of trouble? Don't we expect to suffer, be sick, be persecuted for the sake of the Gospel? I don't know how many verses in the Bible tell us this stuff, but I know there are a lot. OK - so what did people in the NT do when they faced trouble? The first thing that came to my mind is Paul. I am quoting from the KJV, which I absolutely love, love, love!  2Co 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 2Co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. 2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. [/u] Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. I just think this book is "whiney" and has some real issues with understanding what God is about. If we are to rejoice in all things and at all times, then where does the "mute" thing come in? I was looking at Lam 3 and it looks like a prophecy about Jesus. I have never seen that in Christ we are to grovel in the dust. wow. Do you really think that God beats us into the ground?  1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, [b[u]]ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory[/b]: 1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. I was thinking about Hebrews 12 in this context, cause I think people get the idea that God is gonna come down on us like a load of bricks.  Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Chastisement can mean training, not beating someone. Scourging does not necessarily have to be whipping someone. God loves us, we are His children. He is not looking for an excuse to smash us around. He is not abusive. I feel bad that this book even "goes there"  I remember Peter when he denied Christ. The most horrible sin ever, ever, ever. And what did Jesus do? He looked at Peter. HE LOOKED AT PETER. Was that a scouring - you bet. Was it chastisement - you bet.  Well, that's all I wanna say. I just feel bad about the book cause it's not the God I know. 
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01-19-2011, 07:21 PM
Post: #14
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RE: The Mute Christian
Truthpick, I think you both get the point and miss the point at the same time.
Being "mute" under suffering means I think recognising that God is in everything, and that 'causing a fuss', resisting and complaining to and against God is not the reaction God desires in wanting us to trust Him. These verses came to my attention today: Deuteronomy 10: 12- 17 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? 14Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. 15Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. 16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Also, if you look at the thread on "did God create evil" at Vic and Sheeps' posts - they may shed more light on the matter. Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-23-2011, 02:06 PM
Post: #15
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RE: The Mute Christian
(01-19-2011 07:21 PM)Mary Wrote: Truthpick, I think you both get the point and miss the point at the same time. When I think of "mute" - I think of "be quiet and take it" - and I don't think that is what God requires of us or expects of us. We are humans, made in His image, which includes emotions and feelings of grief, anger, despair, frustration, suffering, joy, happiness, peace, love, comfort, compassion, etc. All of those emotions are how God has expressed Himself in His Word. He was angry, grieved, frustrated, etc. If we do not feel these things and do not allow them to be expressed, we are denying our humanity and do not acknowledge that these emotions are real. We cannot escape them no matter how much we try to evade them. As much as I love the Scripts you posted, I just don't see how they fit into all of this. Maybe I am just dense  I had a friend who was in one of those Charismatic Churches. She was constantly denying her feelings as if that meant her faith was weak. She was dependent on putting to death the feelings, other than "praising God in all things", in order to keep hersel in His perfect will. That meant that she could not recognize pain, illness, or lack of finances. Instead, her faith was to be in God, praising Him for what was to come and that by focusing on any emotion, other than worship, her faith would suffer loss, she would remain ill, have pain, and lack financial security. In other words, she was supposed to confess the positive, not the negative in order to "get from God" and "win His favor". I find that quite appalling.  I have been thinking a lot about this whole thing and I just don't get that as a child of God we are supposed to ram our feelings deep inside and pretend that they don't exist.  The first person that came to mind is David [the man after God's own heart  ]. And he definitely was not "mute" Psa 18:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said,> I will love thee, O LORD, my strength. Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Psa 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. Psa 22:1 <To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. Psa 27:7 Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. Psa 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek. Psa 27:9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. Psa 28:1 <A Psalm of David.> Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit. Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle. Psa 28:3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts. Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. Psa 55:1 <To the chief Musician on Neginoth, Maschil, A Psalm of David.> Give ear to my prayer, O God; and hide not thyself from my supplication. Psa 55:2 Attend unto me, and hear me: I mourn in my complaint, and make a noise; Psa 55:3 Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked: for they cast iniquity upon me, and in wrath they hate me. Psa 55:4 My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me. Psa 55:5 Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me. [u] Psa 55:6 And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest. Psa 55:7 Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah. Psa 55:8 I would hasten my escape from the windy storm and tempest. Psa 55:9 Destroy, O Lord, and divide their tongues: for I have seen violence and strife in the city. Psa 55:10 Day and night they go about it upon the walls thereof: mischief also and sorrow are in the midst of it. Psa 55:11 Wickedness is in the midst thereof: deceit and guile depart not from her streets. Psa 55:12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: Psa 55:13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. Psa 55:14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company. Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Psa 55:16 [u]As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me. Psa 55:17 I think you get the idea   I was also thinking about Jesus - here is an amazing passage: Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; and this: Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. I guess I do not see complaining, whining, crying out to the Lord as "sin", but rather being dependent on Him for strength, comfort, peace, ability to endure. I find comfort in knowing that God knows every nuance of my life, understands the hurts and frustrations that we go through and is there, never leaving or forsaking us. When we don't understand and even get angry at Him, He still knows our hearts and our devotion to Him. It's not that in those times we deny who He is, but that we allow the pain to be put at His feet. And for me, when I cry out to Him in anger or frustration, I know He is God, that His plan is far better than I can imagine and I find peace in a little while, resting assured in His promise that He will always be in control, no matter how dreadful I see the circumstances around me at the "down times". I can't ever say I won't cry out "WHY???" to God. I just know that He will see me through the "whys" and in the end, I am blessedly assured in Him. 
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01-23-2011, 03:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2011 04:22 PM by Mary.)
Post: #16
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RE: The Mute Christian
The best thing really is for you to actually read the book, and not just decide from the title what it is about. Unfortunately I can't give you excerpts because the book is downloaded to another computer, but in essence while the author doesn't recommend that we lie to God about our feelings (what would be the point) he does recommend that we behave with dignity and respect for God in our suffering in front of other people.
The verses I quoted are to remind us that yes He is a God of love, and we experience His great love for us all the time, but He is also a God to be feared: He is mighty and terrible. We make a great mistake if we focus only on the "warm and fuzzies" - ultimately many people make this mistake and think they can pretty much do whatever they like, because God loves them and 'there's forgiveness in the end' (Amy Grant). I think your friend in the Charismatic church would learn a lot about praise, worship and relying on God from this book. When you ask God "why?" what do you mean? This book helps the reader to question what they really mean by this "why". In asking God "why" are you prepared for His answer? Can you accept that is could be your own sin? Can you accept that it could be because of the sins of others and you are in the fallout? Can you keep your faith even though your suffering is possibly undeserved? Can you accept that your suffering and how you react to it is a witness to non believers? In expressing your anger to God are you blaming God and suggesting to Him that He is doing the wrong thing? Can you say like Jesus in His suffering: "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26: 38-39. Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-24-2011, 11:28 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2011 11:48 AM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #17
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RE: The Mute Christian
(01-23-2011 03:56 PM)Mary Wrote: When you ask God "why?" what do you mean? This book helps the reader to question what they really mean by this "why". In asking God "why" are you prepared for His answer? Can you accept that is could be your own sin? Can you accept that it could be because of the sins of others and you are in the fallout? Can you keep your faith even though your suffering is possibly undeserved? Can you accept that your suffering and how you react to it is a witness to non believers? Hi Mary, I was following along with your discussion with truth pick, and you have raised my curiosity. Where does the concept come from that "bad things happen" or that we suffer because of our sin? Or that what happens to us is "fallout" from someone else's sin? Or that we are "punished" for our sin by suffering? I am having a difficult time computing this line of thinking.  Didn't Jesus death and resurrection deliver us completely from all sin? If He bore our sins on the cross and made full atonement for them, then how can there be punishment for them? Where does the NT show us that we have to be "chastised for our sins" by suffering?  Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Is Brooks saying then, that my 12 yr old grandson is completely profoundly permanently deaf in one ear with unexplained reasons 2 months ago, and the nerve ending completely disintegrated, due to the fact that he is being chastised for a sin he committed or that this is "fall out" from someone else's sin?  He is also suffering from severe ongoing vertigo and cannot leave the house except to go to school, and it is likely to continue interminably. How do we then come to a conclusion as to whose sin this is and what it is? And how is it then resolved? How will we know that enough punishment for said sin is enough - when he goes completely deaf in both ears? Paul suffered a whole lot of suffering. Does Brooks really believe it was due to some sin that he committed? 2 Cor 11:23+ Let's break down the title and the quote from your opening post, which I think summarizes the entire book. I will give some thoughts pertaining to some of the things presented there. On the other hand, I do not agree that we have to read an entire book to understand the central theme. This quote reveals more than enough to my way of thinking. Quote:The Mute Christian under the Smarting Rod with Sovereign Antidotes against the Most Miserable Exigents The title alone really confused me. To relegate God to "the smarting rod with sovereign antidotes" is to me the most caustic and disrespectful way to define Him. God is our Father. He does not sit in Heaven waiting to slam down a rod on our backs for our sins. That was already done to Christ for us. There is no amount of punishment, that we deserve, that can be punishment enough for our sin. There is no suffering for the teeniest sin that can fully "chastise" us for whatever sin we do. We live in the flesh, we are going to sin. God knows this It's why He sent Christ  And, I am not a "most miserable exigent".  I am a child of the King. He has made me His friend. He has made His home in me. God loves us so much that He sent Christ to die for us so that we can be reconciled to Him in Christ. Knowing that God hates sin is not "greasy grace" in Christ. A true believer understands that sin is wrong and tries their best to be pure and righteous. That is why the Holy Spirit indwells to keep us ever mindful, to change us, renew us, and make us into the image of Christ. Quote:The book is dedicated to: If a true Christian is suffering, I would not classify them as being "dissatisfied or discomposed". Is there distress - absolutely. Jesus was distressed, yet He is without sin. Jesus was discomposed, yet He was without sin. Even in the worst of suffering I would never deny Him. How can one be "dissatisfied" with Jesus Christ? I do not believe that a true believer is "disquieted". "Disquieted" means without peace. If one is in Christ, the peace remains. He is peace. In Christ is to be in peace. Being distressed does not mean one is without hope or trust in God. Perhaps the author is declaring his own position, but is confused in his understanding of the "peace that passes all understanding" in the true believer.  Quote:The author calls us to a prudent, gracious , holy silence before the Lord in our afflictions. Such a silence reflects that we acknowledge that God is the author of our afflictions and that we recognise that we are under the acting hand of God and are awed by his sovereignity; that we are calm in mind and spirit because we trust God. such silence clears God of injustice and blame. The author discusses Lamentations 3: 22-33 Neither David or Jesus were in "holy silence". David spends a great deal of time commiserating with the Lord. Jesus cried out to God with tears. Just because a person cries out to God and asks "why me" does not mean they do not believe God is in full control of our lives. Last summer I had a horrible fall. I broke my wrist and banged up the rest of my body considerably. In the days that followed as I lay in terrible pain I most definitely cried out in pain and anger to God. And I cried out, why me, Lord? My fall disrupted life in a very consequential way, disallowing me to help care for my grandchildren and my daughter who has has been in chronic pain a good share of her life. I live with her and her husband and 6 boys - most of whom have many disabilities. It takes the two of us during the day, in complete involvement to care for and oversee these boys. For 6 weeks I was unable to help much. And at first, I could not fathom why God would allow this to happen. Absolutely not one person stepped forward to help. So my frustration was at an all time "high". Yet, in the depths of my soul, even when I cried out to God, "what are You thinking?!!!!!!!" I was in peace, knowing He had a plan. My emotional repsonse had zero negative affect on my relationship with God. IT MADE IT STRONGER. 2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. So what I gather, if Brooks is right, is that now I must spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what sin I committed that caused my accident so I can repent, or else I must accept that bad things will continue to happen to me until I get it resolved.  What I gathered from truth pick's last paragraph in their last post shows that one can be angry at God, yet completely comprehend that God has a greater plan than what we can see. I do not see anger at God as sin. I see it as an expression of our emotions. If we are not honest with God, we are quite simply are coming before Him with pride, thinking we are above the human emotion of anger. How does our "silence clear God of injustice and blame"? That makes no sense at all. God is God. Our words and thoughts cannot "clear God" of anything. That statement unequivocally show that Brooks some real issues with his knowledge of God. Quote:# It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. I am still confused as to this "list" comparing one's supposed sin and resulting suffering. This passage may have a duel meaning. It was directed to Israel firstly, because of their rebellion [they were under the old covenant]. There were specific sacrifices for specific sins that had to be done over and over to atone for sin, and it was only temporary. Ultimately, this passage is a clear picture of Jesus' suffering for sin - His shed blood is the new covenant. New covenant blessings are a better covenant - it covers all sin, once and for all. No longer is there "punishment" for sin in Christ. There is forgiveness, total and complete. Do we suffer the consequences of sin at times? Yes indeed [eg: you still serve time in jail, even if you are forgiven for the sin in confession to God; or get a ticket for speeding, etc]. But the sin itself is completely dissolved, gone, history - or Christ died in vain. All examples that I can think of in the NT where a sin was "punished" was when the person's heart was evil [Ananais and Sapphira; or when one was taking the Lord's Supper in vain - for example]. All other references, that I can recall, refer to suffering for the sake of the Gospel. Quote:A holy, prudent silence reflects that we are surrendered to God, and resigned to His control, and also that we will wait patiently for His deliverance. Surrender to God is the devotion of one's heart to Him, not our emotions. Emotions and feelings have no affect on relationship. If I am angry at my child, it does not mean I don't love them. If I yell at my child and ask them, why they did something wrong, does not dissolve my relationship with them or "set it back". Respect for God is not contained in our emotional responses. It sure had no affect on David's relationship with the Lord, it made it stronger. Respect and awe for God comes from knowing Him, not our human responses at times. Fear of God is not terror. Fear of God is awe of His beauty, majesty, and judgments, etc. Acknowledging the Sovereignty of God has nothing to do with our feelings at the moment. What Brooks is doing is personifying emotions as a concrete tool that are used against God. He views this personification as a lack of humility and surrender, and that is not Scriptural. One can be "silent" before the Lord while crying out to Him in anger and frustration, because that person KNOWS God to the depths of their being, and has completely submitted their will to their Father in Heaven. That is "silence before the Lord", in my opinion. Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. What about those who are never delivered in this lifetime? Just when would Brooks think my grandson will be "delivered"? [He completely accepts his disability. He said, "what's the big deal, Mom, I can hear out of the other ear!" ].
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01-26-2011, 01:13 AM
Post: #18
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RE: The Mute Christian
To be fair, I really thought this part of the forum was to suggest books others might find interesting, and then possibly discuss them, however, if you only want to discuss the title then that's OK too.
so looking at "The Mute Christian" we can take from the definition of "mute" that the book would be about Christians who make a decision to refrain from making speech or vocal sound. Then looking at "the smarting rod" we understand that this refers to something that causes sharp physical and/or mental pain. I think that it is taking a leap at this point to conclude that the smarting rod is God. Thus, so far we have a title that indicates a Christian who is suffering physical and/or mental pain, who chooses to be vocally silent in this suffering. next: "with Sovereign antidotes" looking at 'with' first we see that this suffering silent Christian has something accompanying him, or the situation of being this suffering Christian. What is with him is 'antidotes' which are something that relieves or counteracts a harmful substance or situation. An antidote works against the agent causing suffering. In this case, the antidotes are "Sovereign" that is from the supreme or highest authority. "against the most Miserable Exigents" antidotes work against the cause of suffering "miserable' means causing great misery, or suffering or unhappiness. "exigent" is a description of something that is unreasonably demanding, and /or that requires to be dealt with or remedied urgently. So what we have in this title is an indication of a book that will enlighten us further about the suffering Christian who has chosen to be vocally silent and about the Godly antidotes that he is provided with which work against the most unreasonably demanding causes of suffering and deal with these urgently. It is indeed a very provocative title, and made me want to read further. Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-26-2011, 04:44 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2011 05:37 AM by Mary.)
Post: #19
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RE: The Mute Christian
Still with the title, if we assume that the 'smarting rod' is God, then we have the conundrum that God is both the cause and the antidote of the suffering.
Then, going past Brooks dedicatory (which is quite interesting anyway) we get to part one in which he discusses what this muteness or silence is not: 1. It is not a stoic silence - such as Truthpick's charismatic friend 2. It is not a politic silence - that puts self preservation first, or a 'say nothing in case it gets worse' policy. I initially used this silence when I was bullied at work: only prolonged the problem 3. It is not a foolish silence- I think a stoic silence can become a foolish silence. 4. It is not a sullen silence - I think we are all familiar with sulky children after they've been disciplined, and maybe some of us can catch ourselves being sullen or sulky as adults 5. It is not a forced silence- as Brooks says this is no silence in the eye of God, that is caused by the freedom to choose being taken away. 6. It is not a despairing silence - that can't believe that God has forgiven, that can't accept His mercy, so keeps silent or withdraws under this unbearable emotion It is a "holy prudent silence". Brooks then discusses what that type of silence includes, but we will leave that for the moment to look at what he further on says a holy silence does not exclude us from doing. This might address some of the assumptions and concernsa babout the book so far. First, A holy, a prudent silence under affliction doth not exclude and shut out a sense and feeling of our afflictions Secondly, A holy, a prudent, silence doth not shut out prayer for deliverance out of our afflictions. Thirdly, A holy, a prudent silence doth not exclude men's being kindly affected and afflicted with their sins as the meritorious cause of all their sorrows and sufferings Fourthly, A holy, a prudent silence doth not exclude the teaching and instructing of others when we are afflicted. Fifthly, A holy, a prudent silence doth not exclude moderate mourning or weeping under the afflicting hand of God. Sixthly, A gracious, a prudent silence doth not exclude sighing, groaning, or roaring under afflictions. Seventhly, A holy, a prudent silence, doth not exclude nor shut out the use of any just or lawful means, whereby persons may be delivered out of their afflictions Eighthly, and lastly, A holy, a prudent silence, doth not exclude a just and sober complaining against the authors, contrivers, abettors, or instruments of our afflictions All of Brooks points are accompanied by supportive scripture, some of it the same as given by Sheep and Truthpick. Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-26-2011, 06:57 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2011 07:43 AM by Mary.)
Post: #20
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RE: The Mute Christian
"I was following along with your discussion with truth pick, and you have raised my curiosity. Where does the concept come from that "bad things happen" or that we suffer because of our sin? Or that what happens to us is "fallout" from someone else's sin? Or that we are "punished" for our sin by suffering? I am having a difficult time computing this line of thinking."
Didn't Jesus death and resurrection deliver us completely from all sin? If He bore our sins on the cross and made full atonement for them, then how can there be punishment for them? Where does the NT show us that we have to be "chastised for our sins" by suffering?" It is difficult to answer your questions without asking more: In Revelation the Holy Spirit is talking to the churches - Christians, believers who have been delivered from sin. Why then does He point out their sins and call them to repent? Why does He say in vs 19 chp 3 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.?" What do you make or get from these words of Peter: "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." 1 Timothy 5 vs 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Luke 17: vs 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. What I get from these verses is that Christians do sin, they are rebuked and chastened, God does allow us to suffer afflictions for a while. As to "fallout from another persons sin/s" perhaps I could have expressed it in a better way but what do you think caused Paul's suffering here? 2 Timothy 4: 14 -16 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. It seems clear to me that Paul suffered from the sins of others here. 2 Timothy 3: vs 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. I think that persecution is a "fallout" from the sins of others. Then, apart from affliction suffered as a result of our own sin, or the sins of others, there seems to be suffering that God's strength through great weakness 2 Corinthians 12: 7-10 "and lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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