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The Mute Christian
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01-26-2011, 04:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2011 04:23 PM by Mary.)
Post: #21
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RE: The Mute Christian
I don't know of any Christian brother or sister who does not have suffering, afflictions, distress etc in their lives at one time or another. Often it seems that problems just pile up, one on top of the other... but I also know that God has seen them through, seen me through many difficult times and will see me through more. Often in times of suffering God has made me aware of sins I have committed, and the effect of these sins on others, and confession of the sin, even in some cases restitution, has helped ease or even end the difficulty/suffering. I do not see it as punishment.
If we express anger and frustration at God in our circumstances, I'm sure he does understand and forgive us; but as mature Christians, shouldn't we ask ourselves whether this is a right reaction? Many times in the Bible it is said that God is slow to anger. If we are to endeavour to be more like Him, should we remain quick to anger? Matthew 5 vs 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: If we shouldn't be angry with our brother without cause, should we be angry with God? You may believe you have cause to be angry with Him, but if you believe He has a plan for your life, why be angry with Him? What does this anger reveal about your trust in Him? No doubt, many of us feel angry at God at times - but should we express the anger or confess it? "Is Brooks saying then, that my 12 yr old grandson is completely profoundly permanently deaf in one ear with unexplained reasons 2 months ago, and the nerve ending completely disintegrated, due to the fact that he is being chastised for a sin he committed or that this is "fall out" from someone else's sin? He is also suffering from severe ongoing vertigo and cannot leave the house except to go to school, and it is likely to continue interminably. How do we then come to a conclusion as to whose sin this is and what it is? And how is it then resolved? How will we know that enough punishment for said sin is enough - when he goes completely deaf in both ears?" I can only say that as I read through the book, that no, Brooks is not saying that at all, but you would have to read it for yourself and decide. Unfortunately I have to now get ready to go to work, so I will have to come back to this another time. Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-26-2011, 10:54 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2011 11:01 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #22
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RE: The Mute Christian
Mary, I have finally downloaded the book to Kindle. I have been busy with too many things.
“Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.” Hebrews 12:9-11 “My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure forever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.” Psalms 89:28-34 Suffering is a huge subject and suffering of all kinds is only understandable in the light of God's Word and relationship with Him, the Living Word. Sometimes, the only thing we can understand at the time is that He loves us. I know one thing, the powers of darkness cannot do one thing to me unless they have God's permission. When God is done using them as His instruments He will dispense with them. If we have learned anything from Job, it is to not presume to be a "Comforter" and sit in judgement of another's suffering or trials. But, rather to pray for them and offer comfort. But, understanding THAT God does use suffering in our lives is very profitable. And we look at things differently than God. What we call evil He may call an instrument to prove us or training in righteousness. What Christian, truly born from above has not been chastised by a loving Father (Heb 12)? Proverbs talks about correction in volume and we know from experience that God will use many things to correct us. Well, Heb 12 (correction) is only 1 aspect of suffering. Like I said, and you know, this is a big subject. By the way, I wanted to return the offer of a good book. It is called, "Green Leaf in Drought", by Isabel Kuhn. The Story of Arthur and Wilda Matthews who were some of the last missionaries to leave China as the country fell to the Communists. They spent 2 years by the Mongolian border, and as they were tested in many and sundry ways, their faith grew strong in the Refiner's fire. They experienced the Lord in the midst of their suffering able to meet every need. Green Leaf in Drought has been very helpful to us and I am sure it will be to others that are sufferiing as a believer in Jesus Christ. May we all run to Jesus in those very hard times in life and not run away from Him or harden our hearts. He really is for us. I have a good friend who is suffering from 4th stage lung cancer. In our weekly meetings she is such a blessing to the church because we see someone that is going through such difficult suffering and pain and yet at the same time she is loving the Lord and praising Him. She truly has genuine joy. She often shares in our meetings the goodness of the Lord. She has shared that she has come to know the Lord in such a deeper way in the valley. Much more deeper than she could have ever known Him on the mountaintops. This has redounded to a sweet fragrance of Jesus Christ to all the other brothers and sisters. She has declared His faithfulness in the congregation (Psalm 40). We all have a portion of Jesus to give and we are made rich by the portion of the Lord that she shares with us. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan? It really helps to know other Believers that can "contend with horses". Many of us are just running with the footmen and being wearied by them. It strengthens and encourages the church to see that Jesus Christ can take someone through very difficult trials and bring them forth as gold. I think when we are "squeezed" and "pressed" in life like the grapes in the wine press, or the fire is turned up like the refiner's fire, when a sweet aroma of Jesus Christ comes out, many are touched. This is a work of the Lord. Look how many have been touched by the sweet aroma that has come out of Jesus' sufferings. And I know, that sometimes even a stinky aroma comes out. That's ok. God knows the process much better than we do and thankfully He does not give up on us. He is committed to "perfect us in love" and "conform us to the image of His Son", which really means, "to bear much fruit". Sure it would have been nice to understand these things the day I was born-again, but not very realistic. Afterall, it is a process of spiritual maturation. Well, I have probably said too much, but now I know why Heb. 12, opens up with charging us to "Look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith". The next verses explain it. Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Rick Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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01-27-2011, 03:47 AM
Post: #23
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RE: The Mute Christian
Thank you Rick, that clarifies what I have been trying to say. Thank you for the book suggestion too - I will look for it in the Christian bookstore.
I think that if the suffering we are enduring is God rebuking, or chastising us for sin, He will make it clear to us, all the sooner if our "why?" is a deep request to know rather than an angry protest of frustration at what seems unreasonable and unfair. When we "be still and know that He is God" rather than panic and fret we can rest in His peace. I'm sorry you had such a difficult and lonely time, and that your family was without help. I had no idea this was happening to you, if I had I could have prayed for you, even though I am on the other side of the world. What does James say: let him who is afflicted pray. I hope things have eased for you all and that you can look back and see gains in that time. Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-29-2011, 04:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2011 05:17 PM by truth pick.)
Post: #24
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RE: The Mute Christian
Quote: from Mary .... Wow! I am like totally confused. If this is what the book is about, why ever would I read it? I don't see anywhere in the NT that God is going to cause His children great misery for their sins. I guess I am just speechless at such a notion. Or that God has "antidotes"??? How strange. Sometimes we suffer our entire lives for being a Christian and for the sake of Christ with no relief. I expect to suffer for Christ, that is how we are tested and tried. But it's not because of our sin and I think Brooks is "outta here" on that point. That just throws me for a loop! Where ever does it say in the Bible that we are to be silent in suffering? Why would a child of God go around cursing God for the bad stuff. It is life. Hello???? God does indeed give us grace and strength to endure, but to think that the "antidote" is deliverance from it is not even realistic. I guess I am really just shocked at the notion that Brooks really thinks someone will suffer for their sin and die diseased because of it. When exactly does he think our sins are atoned for? Cause he raises a horrible scenario, that Jesus death was in vain if He was not chastised for us. I am kind of inserting stuff here from other comments in your posts as I think of them. I hope it does not come off too scattered. Just for clarifying, my anger at God by asking why is not the kind of anger that Jesus was referring to. That kind of anger is like hatred for your brother which equals murder. To cry out to God in frustration, is a type of anger and I see nothing wrong with it. David did it and yet gave glory to God. It is realistic when you are in pain to cry out in anger for the suffering. IT IS NOT JUST to our way of thinking, but it is the will of God. In my way of looking at this, as a child of God, I suffer because of Christ. It's called persectuion for the sake of Christ. It has nothing to do with my sin or anyone elses. It has to do with satan seeking to devour, to "make us pay" for our love for the Lord and our lives that have been given over to Him. It's not because we sin that "bad things" happen to us, but because we belong to the King. We suffer on the job, at home, with families, by others who view us with dislike or even hatred because we love the Lord and desire nothing more than to please Him or fight for His truth against lies and false teachings. This is why Paul suffered. It was not due to his sin, but because He was preaching the Gospel. Job is another excellent example. He did nothing wrong. God held him up before satan and said, behold my servant, Job. Job was righteous in the eyes of God. satan was given permission to kill his family, destroy his possessions, and when Job did not curse God, satan was allowed to bring physical pain and suffering to Job, but not to kill him. It was because Job belonged to the Lord and was found righteous in His sight that satan was allowed to "test and try" him. Most of the book of Job are his friends tried to convince him he had unconfessed sin in his life and this is why he was suffering - sound familiar? My sins are forgiven, nailed to the cross, they are no more. I repent daily of them, they are forgiven. Why would God, who promised that my sins be cast as far as the east is from the west, now decide at random, that He will chastise me for something He "remembers no more". Do you see that contradiction with what Brooks is saying? If a person has unrepented sin and are chastised by God, I can sort of understand where the concept comes from that bad things might happen to bring them to repentance, but not all of us are notoriously rebellious and willfully sin. Even those sins I do not know that I commit from minute to minute, I depend on God to "wipe my slate clean" because I am His child. Else what hope is there for us? If we die in an instant without every sin repented of then what???? I am not a rebellious, sinful person looking for ways to manipulate my life to my own desires and accomplishments outside of the demands that God has made clear in His Word. What a horrible way to exist to think that my Father in Heaven is just waiting to chastise me with sickness or an accident because I have "been a bad person" aka my sin. I am simply horrified at the thought. What kind of relationship does a child of God have that they would fear God in such a way??? It's just plain unBiblical. Quote:Then looking at "the smarting rod" we understand that this refers to something that causes sharp physical and/or mental pain. I think that it is taking a leap at this point to conclude that the smarting rod is God. Thus, so far we have a title that indicates a Christian who is suffering physical and/or mental pain, who chooses to be vocally silent in this suffering. Why does Brooks assume that "the smarting rod" is sharp physical and/or mental pain? Where does it say this in the NT? Why isn't chastisement simply being convicted of sin? If one is living for Christ then why chastisement? If a person chooses to sin and suffers the consequences for sin, why is that viewed as "chastisment". Consequence is not always punishment, nor is is something that "turns a person around". For instance, if a woman gets pg out of wedlock and raises the child under harsh circumstances due to her being single, the sin of committing adultery/fornication is forgiven, if she repents, but she will still bear the child and raise it in not the best of circumstances. Are you saying that the child is then the chastisement for her sin and the efforts it takes to raise that child? Isn't it rather the consequence of sin? Paul did not receive that thorn because of sin. It was to KEEP HIM FROM PRIDE. satan was allowed to "buffet" him. Paul had gone to the Lord to be healed from it, but God said it was His grace that sustained Paul in the midst of it. Now does that sound like chastisement? Pahlease .... Personally, I think Brooks it on the way wrong track. The way he words stuff is archaic and completely unrealistic. I am going to go out on a limb here and say categorically that there is not a book out there that is worth reading. I have read 100s even 1000s of books. And ya know what? they were all man's attempt to explain God and with their own agenda. I think Brooks book is a trap, like a vice grip that will squeeze the life out of ya. I am going to read through some other posts on this subject and maybe make another post. I don't know. In a way, I like it's a futile excercise. Sorry, don't be offended. I suppose my post is a little harsh. I have a really bad cold that has been going on for days and I feel miserable. I am still trying to figure out what sins I am being chastised for ..........  (01-26-2011 04:44 AM)Mary Wrote: Still with the title, if we assume that the 'smarting rod' is God, then we have the conundrum that God is both the cause and the antidote of the suffering. I don't really compute the list, but let me say that my charismatic friend was definitely not stoic. Charismatics like to suffer so they can command healing and rebuke satan. It's like a career in that whole thing. They mostly get fired up in their tongues and worship stuff to defeat satan. So I wouldn't exactly call them "stoic". The rest of the list is kind of goofy. Why would you go to so much time and energy to define being mute??? He is like trying to catagorize "muteness" like you would try to cut in half atiny little pill with a butter knife Quote:Brooks then discusses what that type of silence includes, but we will leave that for the moment to look at what he further on says a holy silence does not exclude us from doing. This might address some of the assumptions and concernsa babout the book so far. My biggest concern with the book is that is just plain not in the Bible  First, A holy, a prudent silence under affliction doth not exclude and shut out a sense and feeling of our afflictions Secondly, A holy, a prudent, silence doth not shut out prayer for deliverance out of our afflictions. Thirdly, A holy, a prudent silence doth not exclude men's being kindly affected and afflicted with their sins as the meritorious cause of all their sorrows and sufferings Fourthly, A holy, a prudent silence doth not exclude the teaching and instructing of others when we are afflicted. Fifthly, A holy, a prudent silence doth not exclude moderate mourning or weeping under the afflicting hand of God. Sixthly, A gracious, a prudent silence doth not exclude sighing, groaning, or roaring under afflictions. Seventhly, A holy, a prudent silence, doth not exclude nor shut out the use of any just or lawful means, whereby persons may be delivered out of their afflictions Eighthly, and lastly, A holy, a prudent silence, doth not exclude a just and sober complaining against the authors, contrivers, abettors, or instruments of our afflictions All of Brooks points are accompanied by supportive scripture, some of it the same as given by Sheep and Truthpick. [/quote] Well, that list just beats all doesn't it? How in the world is a person mute but allowed "moderate mourning"? Just who is going to gage what is moderate compared to "over the top"? Do you really think that David's psalms are "moderate", or Job? So when a Christian mother and her 4 children lose their husband/father to a heart attack and he dies on Christmas morning in front of them all [true story] and she screams in abject grief and terror, falling to floor sobbing, she is in sin? How is "roaring", mute? Do you not see the contradictions here? And what exactly is: "doth not exclude a just and sober complaining against the authors, contrivers, abettors, or instruments of our afflictions". This is all completely opposite of what he said in the first place. It's like a saleman when they have you hooked, they change directions midstream and make you think you are still going downstream, when in fact you are fighting the current. Why can't we just read the Bible and get our understanding from the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that this book is confusing and competes against God's Word? I am completely puzzled at this point. |
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01-29-2011, 05:53 PM
Post: #25
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RE: The Mute Christian
"I am going to read through some other posts on this subject .."
Phew, really glad you said that, as I was wondering how you could write all this if you had read the other posts. Just to clarify, Brooks does not "assume" the smarting rod is physical or mental pain - that IS the definition of smarting. Because so many assumptions were being made about the book from the title, I thought it best that it was clearly defined. Yes, Brooks is "archaic" it was written in 1786. Brooks was a minister, and he wrote the book because he and all his fellow Christians suffered afflictions, just as all Christians do today. He decided to do an extensive bible study on the subject, and then wrote it in a booklet. Maybe if he lived today, he would post it on a discussion forum: then how would your comment "they were all man's attempt to explain God and with their own agenda" apply? "My sins are forgiven, nailed to the cross, they are no more. I repent daily of them, they are forgiven. Why would God, who promised that my sins be cast as far as the east is from the west, now decide at random, that He will chastise me for something He "remembers no more". Do you see that contradiction with what Brooks is saying?" First, you really need to read the book to accuse Brooks of contradicting God's word - that would be the fairest and most sensible way to do it. I'm not offended that you might decide not to read a book based on it's title, I make many such decisions myself, but I wouldn't presume to go further in analysis or critique of the book. Those sins of which you repent daily, are they old sins, or new, original, fresh sins that you commit daily? How does it come to your attention that they are sins? Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-29-2011, 05:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2011 06:48 PM by truth pick.)
Post: #26
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RE: The Mute Christian
(01-26-2011 06:57 AM)Mary Wrote: "I was following along with your discussion with truth pick, and you have raised my curiosity. Where does the concept come from that "bad things happen" or that we suffer because of our sin? Or that what happens to us is "fallout" from someone else's sin? Or that we are "punished" for our sin by suffering? I am having a difficult time computing this line of thinking." Isn't the chastisement and rebuke in pointing our their sins and calling for repentance? Where does it say that they have been made sick or are suffering in their sin? Isn't the Bible our "rebuker" and "chastiser" when it comes to sin? When we read the Bible, it tells us what is sin and what is not. That is chastening, right? 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Quote:What do you make or get from these words of Peter: Trying and testing us as we suffer for Christ is not suffering for our sins. We are instructed to resist evil [satan] and remain stedfast. Are we rebuked and chastised to remain stedfast, or encouraged to do so? We are made perfect in suffering for Christ, for His Name's sake, because we are in Christ. Peter says nothing about committing a sin here. Quote: I do not see anything in the passage above about being chastised other than being informed of their sin, or suffering afflictions. If someone is rebuked for sin, how does that make them suffer physically aka get sick or something happen to them? Where does this idea come from? I just don't get it. Paul says to forgive if they repent? Is God going to chastise a person who has repented? We are perfected [made mature] in Christ by suffering. It is not because of our sin, but because we are Christ's. 1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: Quote:As to "fallout from another persons sin/s" perhaps I could have expressed it in a better way but what do you think caused Paul's suffering here? Paul suffered because He is the Lord's and stood for the truth. Jesus prophecied to Paul that he would suffer greatly > for HIM. satan used Alexander to come against Paul and Paul suffered, because He was Christ's. The evil was not against Paul, it was against Jesus. satan thinks that he can abuse a child of the King, but in reality he is standing against the Lord, not us. We fight not against flesh and blood, but the principalities .... of darkness. Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Quote:It seems clear to me that Paul suffered from the sins of others here. It does not say that Paul or that we suffer from the sins of others in this text. It says that the godly will suffer. The godly suffer because they are in Christ. Quote:I think that persecution is a "fallout" from the sins of others. Persecution is what we experience at the hands of people who do not love the Lord or belong to Christ. It is not because of their sin. It is because satan hates us and uses them for his purposes. Paul did not have a thorn because of anyone's sin. He had a thorn to prevent pride, to keep him from sinning. He takes pleasure in infirmities, etc FOR Christ's sake, not because of sin. I really have no idea where the concept of sin comes from in this passage. 2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2Co 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 2Co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. (01-26-2011 04:11 PM)Mary Wrote: I don't know of any Christian brother or sister who does not have suffering, afflictions, distress etc in their lives at one time or another. Often it seems that problems just pile up, one on top of the other... but I also know that God has seen them through, seen me through many difficult times and will see me through more. Often in times of suffering God has made me aware of sins I have committed, and the effect of these sins on others, and confession of the sin, even in some cases restitution, has helped ease or even end the difficulty/suffering. I do not see it as punishment. Why do people think that restitution will "ease" suffering or end it? I am like totally astounded at that. That is making your works "pay for your sin". Quote:If we express anger and frustration at God in our circumstances, I'm sure he does understand and forgive us; but as mature Christians, shouldn't we ask ourselves whether this is a right reaction? Was David not a mature Christian? I am not sure we are on the same page with the anger thingie. You are not understanding me. I am not cursing God. I cry out in hurt and pain, not understanding why. It is my natural normal way to relate to Him. If we cannot be ourselves to God, then who are we to cry to? If we cannot pour out our hearts to Him, who is our Lord and Father, then what is the point of our relationship with Him? For me, pouring out my heart in tears, grief and anger ARE trusting in Him, because He hears and comforts.Psa 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. Quote:Many times in the Bible it is said that God is slow to anger. If we are to endeavour to be more like Him, should we remain quick to anger? You are using the word "anger" in a way that I am not. I am not screaming mad and at God, ever. I am upset. I am mourning, grieving. It's called, being real. Quote:Matthew 5 vs 22 Anger at one's brother in context = murder aka hatred. I do not hate God. I can be angry at God = trust and relationship. I can be angry at others, it does not mean I want them dead Quote: many of us feel angry at God at times - but should we express the anger or confess it? Why should I confess my "anger" when God knows my heart? It is not a deliberate act of definance. I don't think you get it, but that's ok. It's hard to define it. This past week our sewer backed up for the second time in a week. You can bet it was an affliction. It was just one more thing in a very long list of "persecution"/"attack". I never view these things as a repercussion for "sin". I see it simply as satan trying to wreck my life. I cried. And it hurt. We had no money to do the repairs. I cried out to the Lord - WHY???? I trust You know what You are doing, but WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!!! But God is always in control of these things > it turned into a gift. Because, when they dug up the sewer line to do the repair, they found a 9' 4" in diameter root that had grown INSIDE the sewer line about 10ft from the house. Instead of just water backing up, it could have been raw sewage. So the backup was a gift, because in time, our entire house would eventually have exploded in poop.  ps: and He provided the funds as well 
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01-29-2011, 07:09 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2011 07:10 PM by truth pick.)
Post: #27
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RE: The Mute Christian
(01-29-2011 05:53 PM)Mary Wrote: "I am going to read through some other posts on this subject .." I meant to say read through them again ...oops. I ain't perfect Quote:Just to clarify, Brooks does not "assume" the smarting rod is physical or mental pain - that IS the definition of smarting. Because so many assumptions were being made about the book from the title, I thought it best that it was clearly defined. It's not just the title. That was the big red flag for me, it just plain turned me off. It was the quotes that you presented that convinced me. The more quotes I read the more intense, my aversion. Sorry - I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I am probably weird. I love reading the Bible. It is pure, simple, and "comprehensive". I don't need an 18th century book to show me what suffering is and why we all "enjoy" it Quote:Yes, Brooks is "archaic" it was written in 1786. Brooks was a minister, and he wrote the book because he and all his fellow Christians suffered afflictions, just as all Christians do today. He decided to do an extensive bible study on the subject, and then wrote it in a booklet. Maybe if he lived today, he would post it on a discussion forum: then how would your comment "they were all man's attempt to explain God and with their own agenda" apply? I don't think Brooks did all that great of job with context. His understanding of sin and suffering is not what I see in the NT and that is why I was so shocked at the support for his writing. His agenda is leading people astray, to put it simply. I see nothing admirable or teachable in his writing. It only confuses the issues. If one would just read the NT, it would be clear that we will suffer, that we need to live for the Lord, take up our cross daily [suffering, afflictions, persecutions], and be changed by the Holy Spirit. Maybe I should write a book Quote: truth pick --------- From the quotes of the book, I can see that Brooks contradicts the Bible. It adds and takes away from it. And it outright says defines suffereing in ways that the Bible does not. In my neck of the woods that is called "contradition".  Quote:Those sins of which you repent daily, are they old sins, or new, original, fresh sins that you commit daily? How does it come to your attention that they are sins? By reading/knowing the Bible and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sin is sin, regardless of the time line. I cannot possibly repent of all the sins I ever committed my entire life. That is why Christ died. His sacrifice covered them all. When I know I sin, I confess. Some of my sins I have never confessed because I don't know what they are. Do you really think God will bring up to us every single sin we have ever committed? Isn't there trust that Jesus forgives all when we come to His cross of grace, mercy, and forgiveness? Jesus is our Mediator between us and God for all our sins, even those we "miss". You know when you sin when you Love the Lord with all your heart - it's an integral part of relationship with Him. You don't need a bill board
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01-29-2011, 08:10 PM
Post: #28
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RE: The Mute Christian
"Why should I confess my "anger" when God knows my heart? It is not a deliberate act of definance. I don't think you get it, but that's ok. It's hard to define it."
Why would you repent daily of your sins when God knows your heart? This past week our sewer backed up for the second time in a week. You can bet it was an affliction. It was just one more thing in a very long list of "persecution"/"attack". I never view these things as a repercussion for "sin". I see it simply as satan trying to wreck my life. I cried. And it hurt. We had no money to do the repairs. I cried out to the Lord - WHY???? I trust You know what You are doing, but WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!!! But God is always in control of these things > it turned into a gift. Because, when they dug up the sewer line to do the repair, they found a 9' 4" in diameter root that had grown INSIDE the sewer line about 10ft from the house. Instead of just water backing up, it could have been raw sewage. So the backup was a gift, because in time, our entire house would eventually have exploded in poop" Is this the first time something like this has happened to you? If it is, what will you do next time? Will you again say to God "What are you thinking!!??!!or will you say Lord, I know and trust that you will see us through this difficulty? Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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01-29-2011, 08:27 PM
Post: #29
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RE: The Mute Christian
In the middle of the debate
 , I thought I would throw in some info about Thomas Brooks who wrote the book [not Richard]. He was a Puritan, Calvinistic in his view of the Bible, the Gospel and the world. Puritan "theology" was quite prominent when the USA was formed and populated. It's belief system is that the USA would be "Manifest Nation of God", "The City on the Hill" to the nations. If the USA would remain "Christian", then the rest of the world would follow suit. If the USA would remain "Christian", then she would not suffer destruction like the other nations. I can see that this concept is promoted by many Christians in the USA and is promulgated by teachings, many books, and the general view point of most Christians today. As is seen in the "prophetic movement" as well, which would be charismania, etc - that the USA will be destroyed because she has turned away from God aka - kicked God out of the schools, prayer, etc. There is no such thing as a "nation for God". His Kingdom is not of this world. So that leaves me a bit perplexed that in his writings, there will be every opportunity for the "nation under God" philosophy to run through it. In my reading of Puritan doctrines, it appears that each has the ability to interpret Scripture individually which is probably why he felt he had the right to author the books that he did. A person's learned theology and doctrines will bleed through in their writings. That is why I do not believe that this book accurately represents a correct interpretation of Bible. As an interesting aside, referring to the discussions, as I have said before, I was once part of the Faith Movement's prophetic venue. I believed I was a prophet of God. When I was in affliction or when bad things happened to me, I believed it was prophetic of the church. Often I would receive "words from the Lord" warning of impending doom for the church because of her "faithlessness", her lack of "faith", her sins, etc allegorical of what was happening to me. So every time I was being assaulted by evil, I believed it an allegory of the spiritual realm. The words I received confirmed this. All that said, in no way was the "evil" ever perceived to be because I had done something wrong, but the sins of the church [organized]. And of course, the faith movement, in great part, does teach that one can be sinless. You can make mistakes, but that is not the same thing  |
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01-31-2011, 07:23 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2011 07:24 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #30
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RE: The Mute Christian
If truth is to be recognized then I hope I see it.
I have read from many different kinds of authors. Calvinists, Armenians, Pentecostals, Bible Church, Cessationists and Dispensationalists and found some truth. I even find truth on SeekGod from time to time. Let's keep looking at the message (the words that Brooks wrote) and not try to marginalize his message by talking about him. I believe his writing on suffering has a lot of merit. By the way, I like "archaic". Another word we use today to marginalize old writings or Bibles. I just want to add, I find many of today's contemporary books and songs, very superficial. Not all, but many. Many are the afflictions of the Righteous, but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. Psalm 34:19 Deliverance doesn't always come as we intend it to come. Psa 34:1 I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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