Did Jesus Destroy or Fulfill the Law

[Rose of Shushan]

I decided to start a thread on this very controversial passage in Matthew

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Shall we start by getting a definition of pleroo/fulfil


G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4134
Citing in TDNT: 6:286, 867



We see that fulfil has a few different meanings. Let's look at the context of how the verb pleroo is also used elsewhere in Matthew.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Mat 21:5 Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King comes unto you, meek, and sitting upon a donkey, and a colt the foal of a donkey.
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and for my clothing did they cast lots.




Lets lastly for this post look at the definition of destroy/kataluo

G2647
καταλύω
kataluō
Thayer Definition:
1) to dissolve, disunite
1a) (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish
1b) metaphorically to overthrow, i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught
1b1) to subvert, overthrow
1b1a) of institutions, forms of government, laws, etc., to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard
1c) of travellers, to halt on a journey, to put up, lodge (the figurative expression originating in the circumstance that, to put up for the night, the straps and packs of the beasts of burden are unbound and taken off; or, more correctly from the fact that the traveller’s garments, tied up when he is on the journey, are unloosed at it end)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G3089
Citing in TDNT: 4:338, 543

[strefanash]

He did not and could not have destroyed the Law.

And I have already posted that the pharisees were the most determined of all as regards righteousness and hypocrisy was the only result of their determination. WE cannot exceed their righteousness by determination

The question is this: where does the fact that the Law is not abolished leave us? Which raises two more questions:

do we have to do feasts and rituals that have already been fulfilled and therefore been rendered, in some sense at least, irrelevant?

And do we have to try to keep the moral law by force of will?

you know that my theological answer answer to both is NO (my honest answer to the 2nd is stil YES, alas). The feasts were types, shadows of what was to be offered, namely personal relationship with a living Being. It is having and staying in relationship with this Person whereby we are changed, but not on conversion rather by staying with Him - "abide with me," HE said- over time. When this is done we increasingly meet the requirement of the Law, but not by effort, purely by his grace. To the second question the answer is that force of wil never constituted obedience

Of course that is what they all say, at least where i come from.

The twisted form of this would have us try hard and expect an energy from on high to empower our resolves. But that is not obedience, and never was. So God would never aid it. I submit that this energy does not exist. it is a superstitious reification of grace, an abuse and therefore denial of it

They were in the flesh as i was but would never admit it, their willpower was now seen by them as obedience stemming from godly zeal. Yet it was, by its violence, carnality and hypocrisy. The upshot was that they were back under law and worse off than when unbelivers.

They did not know the Lord but denied this with their false definition that being born again (even if they were in fact born again) was in fact knowing God. I submit that though this is necessary it is not the same thing as knowing him. I was born again at near midnite 30 July 1978, but my fruit show I do not know Him. Experienced Him? yes. But I do not know him.

the fruit of the spirit is peace. there is no peace in trying hard to obey commandments.

No I do not advocate easy believism, rather something even easier still, (at least in expressed theology if not honestly) a real personal relationship with the supernatural spirit being who is Jesus Christ.

But again, "relationship" is what they all say, but they will say it is hard as their carnal striving makes their lives hard. But have no fruit to prove relationship, or show no long term, even if slow, improvement in their characters, neither can they testify to revelations from a spirit being which conform to scripture, nor tell of a spirit speaking to them who could not have been a conjuring of their own imaginations . . . . . . .

[aahavaa]

How does one destroy the Law and the prophets? Those verses say that he didn’t come to abolish both the law and the prophets, so maybe the phrase isn’t referring to only the commandments given to Israel to do ,what do you guys think?
Jesus said

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The way I see these verses is that Jesus comes not to diminish the authority of the whole OT but instead is its fulfillment, in that what they pointed to came to pass.

John also spoke of the psalms as the Law

Joh 15:25 But this comes to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

thats in psalm 35:19
another instance is John 10:34

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?

That comes from Psalm 82:6.
So John regarded the whole Psalms,Prophets and books of Moses as Law.
When we see Law we immediately think of the ten commandments and/or the rest of the 600 odd given to Moses. But to Jesus and the apostles the whole Law and
Prophets were law. Therefore how does one abolish the Prophets and the Psalms?
The only way I can think of is if we were to negate its relevance or importance. Jesus does neither and instead says that the word of God(Law,Prophets and Psalms) will never pass away.

[sheep wrecked]

(12-31-2008 11:06 PM)aahavaa Wrote:  How does one destroy the Law and the prophets? Those verses say that he didn’t come to abolish both the law and the prophets, so maybe the phrase isn’t referring to only the commandments given to Israel to do ,what do you guys think?
Jesus said

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The way I see these verses is that Jesus comes not to diminish the authority of the whole OT but instead is its fulfillment, in that what they pointed to came to pass.

John also spoke of the psalms as the Law

Joh 15:25 But this comes to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

thats in psalm 35:19
another instance is John 10:34

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?

That comes from Psalm 82:6.
So John regarded the whole Psalms,Prophets and books of Moses as Law.
When we see Law we immediately think of the ten commandments and/or the rest of the 600 odd given to Moses. But to Jesus and the apostles the whole Law and
Prophets were law. Therefore how does one abolish the Prophets and the Psalms?
The only way I can think of is if we were to negate its relevance or importance. Jesus does neither and instead says that the word of God(Law,Prophets and Psalms) will never pass away.

I think those are all excellent points

I thought it would be fun to see where the concepts that Jesus taught in Matt 5 come from in the OT, cause I think they will confirm exactly what you are saying

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Isa 66:2 For all those things has my hand made, and all those things have been, said the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.

Psa 34:18 The LORD is near to them that are of a broken heart; and saves such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isa 57:15 For thus said the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint to them that mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.


Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.



Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsts, come you to the waters, and he that has no money; come you, buy, and eat; yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Isa 55:2 Why do you spend money for that which is not bread? and your labor for that which satisfies not? listen diligently to me, and eat you that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.



Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Psa 18:25 With the merciful you will show yourself merciful; with an upright man you will show yourself upright;



Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Psa 24:4 He that has clean hands, and a pure heart; who has not lifted up his soul to vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.


Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Isa 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

Pro 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.



Does anyone know where these concepts are found in the OT? Perhaps they are "new" to the teachings of Christ

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mat 5:13 You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his flavor, with which shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[strefanash]

Many thanks for this appended below.. I was not really aware that some of the beatitudes were almost direct quotes from the psalms . Of course though this confirms that the NT is rooted in the Old and thus came from the same God as inspired the OT yet this does not justift HR.

It really seems that in uniting OT with rabbinical tradition or legalistic misreading of passages, they wil not acknowlege their own carnal mindedness. So this ceases to be a mere intellectual/ theological position and becomes sin






Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Isa 66:2 For all those things has my hand made, and all those things have been, said the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.

Psa 34:18 The LORD is near to them that are of a broken heart; and saves such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isa 57:15 For thus said the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint to them that mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

etc etc etc

[strefanash]

IT is on the History channel as i type now.I am listening to it from the other room. Most of the 10 commandments appear in a section of the Egyptian Book of the Dead which they say predated Moses by centuries. Called the negative confession a dead egyptian appeared before one of 42 gods and told this being what he had NOT done - i have not commiited adultery, i have not stolen etc etc. Of course in the book of the dead this was not confession and repentance, it was hoping to wipe the slate clean by magic spells.

So, did moses plagiarise an ancient pagan text and leave some bits out, as the scholars here are saying?

Or did God appear in fire and majesty to tell the people that HE was the ultimate source of morality, affirming his own self, his own unique pre existeing absolute divinity, and not revealing as much new knowledge as we thought.

If so the Law is not primarily about knowlege but revealing the nature of the relationship of man to God, as it should be but also as it is.

[DarkGlass1312]

As you posted, Jesus said himself that he wouldn't destroy the law but fulfil it. Fulfil in this context means to satisfy and complete. The OT law is completed by Christ's ultimate sacrifice; "It is finished,". The New Covenant is started at the same time. All Jews still live in bondage to the Law as long as they purpose in their heart to follow it. We, on the other hand, are dead to the law so that we may live in Christ.

[Vic]

(01-02-2009 12:03 PM)DarkGlass1312 Wrote:  As you posted, Jesus said himself that he wouldn't destroy the law but fulfil it. ...so that we may live in Christ.

Anyone, Jew or Gentile, who tries to live to the law will be judged by it--including those who claim to live by the laws within Hebrew Roots. Further, all mankind will face judgment on whether they believed Christ or did not. In Christ we have freedom from the law, and are alive in the Spirit.

[My Dear Wormwood]

From my understanding...

Jesus Christ....He Is the LAW!!!!

[Emjesown]

Rose of Shusan said:


Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (throw away) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass[color]( shall not dissapear)[/color][color] from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one[/color] of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness (live according His wil)shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The colored () is from me.
No trespasser of His law shall enter in heaven it sais, i read that as:
People who live by that law shall enter.
Since the law and prophets are FULLFILLED (meaning come true)
shows me that He came to do what was prophecied.
In that way He fullfilled it,

Not abolish........means to me:
not done away!
So God's law is still there.
The Q is what part of the law?
The part that formed a system (Moses)
or
The part that God's kingdom is build on?
I see the 10 as the basis of God's kingdom, in the future when new earth has come, we will all live in peace with Him end with each other.
So....no killing and stealing.
No fals witness and dishonour.
No false images of God to worship.
No coveting eachothers place änd relationship with God.

Therefor i see the 10 as stil legit.
Countrys build there law of the land on it and even unbelievers know what is not good and forbidden behaviour.
That must tell you something.
If the whole world should keep the 10 at leadt, what a different world we would live in.

EMJE

---

Jesus Christ....He Is the LAW!!!!

In HRM and many messianic circles they say:

Yeshua is the Torah

I disagree strongly.
Altho He is called THE WORD.....
wORD is single
Words is plural
Torah ( and the whole bible for theat matter)
are God's words so to speak.
Yeshua is His Word become flesh.

So i can t say Yeshua is the Torah.
He is the lawgiver!

EMJE