The Messiah..born of a virgin...

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(05-23-2011 08:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  By that same logic would you also deny other things that happened in the Bible that also seem to go against the laws of nature?
For example Abraham and Sarah were well beyond child bearing years when God said Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
[/color]I suppose there you would say that God is breaking laws of nature. I don't see God as breaking anything.God created us and created nature and He does with His creation what He wants.

Quote:Abraham and Sarah must have experienced a sort of renewal after being in the Lord's presence. However, they still conceived a child naturally.

I think the "youthful restoration" they experienced is comparative to how Moses remained healthy and youthful until his death, Deut 34:7 "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (KJV)

There is absolutely no comparison there Sarah. That's apples to oranges. Adam lived 930 yrs, Enoch lived 365 years---and God took him...he didn't die....I guess your 'law of nature' argument has some holes...

The comparison was given to you concerning other women who were well passed being able to conceive a child...because they were old and barren. Three examples were given of the miraculous by God and you dismiss them all...

They didn't just get frisky Sarah, they conceived because of the power and determination of God. In fact in the case of Abraham and Sarah, God gave the prophecy she would conceive a year later. And that God would come back when it was time for her to conceive. If it was just a matter of being revitalised, --reversing the aging process and making them feel young again...there would have been no need for God to 'show up' at the planned event.

Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
...Gen 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
...Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Gen 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.
Gen 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. >>> God playing with the laws of nature
Gen 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
Gen 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
Gen 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Here's the question----how come God gave the prophecy about Sarah conceiving and when it would be ---if it was just that they got frisky again.

Do decrepit barren and sterile old ladies normally start menstruating again in order to ovulate and conceive when they have already gone well beyond the 'law of nature?

I am so looking for the Scripture for that 'law of nature" passage; which binds God's hands and abilities so to speak. Do you have that passage of Scripture Sarah?

I guess a burning bush that doesn't burn up is just a parlor trick, right?
God created the heavens and earth from NOTHING---which law of nature would that be, He was abiding by and bound to?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

If God can give man a spirit, He can conceive and make a man with His Spirit.If God can make women conceive or not, He can make one conceive without being with a man.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

I know Sarah. You aren't going to answer my questions or other posts, because to do so would show your heresies and unbelief even further.

Quote:Many times in the Bible women who struggled with infertility (precise reasons unknown) through prayer and understanding of God as the giver of life were able to conceive, such as Rachel and Hannah.

It is my understanding that God set the laws that govern creation in motion at the beginning of time. I think there are miraculous occurances that take place in creation through the capabilities God instilled within his natural laws.

The precise reasons for being barren were clearly known for Sarah, Manoah's wife, and Elizabeth....all three were old and stricken in age and were barren according to what happens to a woman after child bearing years. That you cannot comprehend the significance of that is not a surprise. You are so determined to not believe and are so steeped in unbelief that you refuse the Scriptural truths.

Quote:One of the reasons why I believe the Messiah was born through natural conception is because mankind had to wait for the Redeemer to come through the natural course of time.

I know you won't grasp the absurdity of your reasoning but allow me to elaborate. The Messiah came through the required lineage at precisely the time determined by God for fulfillment of all prophecies concerning Him. It had nothing to do with this imaginary law of nature you bind to God and bind His workings to. He is in control of all....it does not control Him.

The natural course of time merely means when things would be revealed and unfold--according to God's timing and plan. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'the law of nature' determining when Christ was to be born....God had it all planned from before Adam....and every generation is counted ..according to the Scriptures which you reject. Matthew 1--gives the lineage...by generation....and God's planned New covenant was according to HIS TIMING. Just as how He would come was according to God's PERFECT plan...and promises throughout the Scripture...that a virgin would conceive... prophecy ....the virgin did conceive...fulfilled prophecy... the prophecy of God giving a child, the only begotten of the Father, kiss the Son, do you know His name....all prophecies fulfilled...because God said, this day I have begotten thee...

Your unbelief of all that God laid out, showing you don't believe God is able to do much at all...unless bound to your hypocritical and authoritarian imagination based beliefs.

Hypocritical because you condemn christians and the church for the Word of God and believing it and abiding doctrine from it, when you reject it. Hypocritical because you say the Bible holds some truth and you believe it but you don't believe it's God's word and don't believe what is in it. Authoritarian in the exact same way you have accused prior believers of the body of Christ, for determining doctrine---based on the word of God, and you now make your own doctrine based outside the word of God and call it sound, logical, reasoned...and it's all your vain imagination puffed up to overturn the Truth of Jesus Christ and salvation to mankind, and specifically the overturning of the NT...and you think others have problems....take a good look Sarah, because the downward slide you are on does not lead to Christ, but further and further away. That you recieve nothing but maintain your own vain doctrine is sad....but Scriptural.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

No, I am not passing judgment on you Sarah. I am merely evaluating all you believe to the Scriptures and this is the only conclusion that can be reached. You don't believe the record of the God ordained eyewitnesses of Christ and prophets of God. That record was given so we would have the sound doctrine to be able to discern between good and evil and truth and error. Your posts reek of error, tainted and leavened with unbelief and self determined beliefs....It is not of Christ....but then...you deny the written record of Him so that cannot be a surprise.

(05-23-2011 08:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Jesus demonstrated many times His control over nature.He changed water into wine, healed the sick, created eyes for a man born blind, showed control over the sea and wind and also over death itself as in the resurrection of Lazarus.

Because sin has caused unnatural things, such as, diseases and death to enter into God's creation, it makes perfect sense that many of his miracles have to do with the healing and reversing of such things.
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Sarah, Jesus came that people could have life...and be healed... and eternal life--which totally defies the "law of nature" which you hold far dearer than any Scriptural truth. What man is bound to is not what God is bound to. You are so busy trying to be 'logical' and analytical you miss that walking by faith is what pleases God. Trusting HIM beyond what is 'natural'. The natural man cannot receive Scriptural truths nor understand them. That is where you are at according to the Scriptures. It is only by the Holy Spirit indwelling and giving understanding that you will ever be able to shed that unbelief that dominates your thinking.

40 years in the desert took people who had seen God's amazing miracles in Egypt, and His care for them was simply forgotten as they entered the spiritual desert of unbelief. And what did God say:

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

You got really angry at me and accused me of 'dirty tricks' when I asked you something on another thread, and which you blustered about and refused to answer. There was nothing 'dirty' about it, nor was it some trick. You had brought your late husband into various conversations on this forum. So I had asked you something and I am asking again.

If your late husband knew Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord when he died, did he know Him as a true believer and a "Christian', believing the Truth of the Scriptures including about Christ, the virgin birth and all the prophecies concerning Him? Or did he reject those truths?

Was he a bible believing Christian or was he like you, denying the Scriptures as True, and denying the Messianic prophecies and many other truths concerning Christ...because of unbelief?
I've read his poems, and his tribute....I have an idea...but perhaps you can clarify when exactly you lost faith...or did you or he ever have it?Would he be in agreement with where you are at in your beliefs?