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Does Ezekiel 4 pertain to Peter's Vision of the Sheet?
05-11-2011, 09:19 PM
Post: #1
Does Ezekiel 4 pertain to Peter's Vision of the Sheet?
Benny had posted in the Vision of the Sheet thread concerning the possibility of Ezekiel 4 being the same idea as Peter's vision of the sheet.

In a pm which I asked him to send concerning it, he mentioned:


Quote:I posted the quotes in ezekiel because I felt the ideas expressed in those two visions are, possibly, very similar to this passage with Peter.

A) they are visions
B) they center around the concept of not eating non kosher
C) It asks poses the question of visions being literal or not

If you disagree on the similarities, may I ask why you feel that they are not connected

I have decided to set this discussion up as a separate thread so as to not take the Vision of the Sheet thread anymore off topic than it has gotten at times. However the 2 threads are somewhat connected.

Here's the passage:


Eze 4:1 Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem:
Eze 4:2 And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.
Eze 4:3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.
Eze 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Eze 4:7 Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it.
Eze 4:8 And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege.
Eze 4:9 Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof.
Eze 4:10 And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it.
Eze 4:11 Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink.
Eze 4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.
Eze 4:13 And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.
Eze 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.
Eze 4:15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.
Eze 4:16 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, behold, I will break the staff of bread in Jerusalem: and they shall eat bread by weight, and with care; and they shall drink water by measure, and with astonishment:
Eze 4:17 That they may want bread and water, and be astonied one with another, and consume away for their iniquity.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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05-11-2011, 09:28 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2011 09:29 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #2
RE: Does Ezekiel 4 pertain to Peter's Vision of the Sheet?
There we have a similarity with Peter's vision. Where Ezekiel also protests at God's command to bake the food with dung since it would make him unclean.



In Ezekiel God replies

Eze 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

So God , lets Ezekiel replace the human dung with animal dung.This seemed to be a concession on God's part to Ezekiel's sensibilities since the command wasn’t given to test Ezekiel or anything but for Ezekiel to illustrate the prophecy via his actions. This action would have made Ezekiel unclean yet God ordered it knowing it was contrary to the commands in the Law and hence why Ezekiel protested.
The concession that God gave Ezekiel was to allow him to use cow dung instead,however this still made Elijah unclean



Lev 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

Lev 7:21 Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

It is very interesting that God issues Ezekiel that command to make himself unclean .I personally have no problem with this since God can override the commands He gave at Sinai to the Israelites when as and as He wants and for whatever reason. I do see though that maybe this verse would be problematic for members such as Nearyah .


I also see similiarities in the way that both Peter and Ezekiel protested but then went ahead and obeyed God anyway.

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01-21-2012, 11:54 AM
Post: #3
RE: Does Ezekiel 4 pertain to Peter's Vision of the Sheet?
True, God is God and He can do what He wants . The differance between what God told Ezekiel and what He told Peter is significant. He told Ezekiel he could substitute (but still unclean) ,He told Peter He had "made" it clean ! Acts 11:9 "What God has cleansed, that call not common" . A bit different .This is part of Jeremiah 31:31 , were God said "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ..." Changing unclean to clean would be "new" and "not according" . This is were people get confused . God has made a New Covenant , and it is marvelous in our eyes ! Ephesians 2:15 " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity , even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man , so making peace ." Its the cross (verse 16 ) that msde the difference ! Tom
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06-25-2012, 05:33 PM (This post was last modified: 06-25-2012 06:15 PM by corecrash.)
Post: #4
RE: Does Ezekiel 4 pertain to Peter's Vision of the Sheet?
(01-21-2012 11:54 AM)so loved Wrote:  True, God is God and He can do what He wants . The differance between what God told Ezekiel and what He told Peter is significant. He told Ezekiel he could substitute (but still unclean) ,He told Peter He had "made" it clean ! Acts 11:9 "What God has cleansed, that call not common" . A bit different .This is part of Jeremiah 31:31 , were God said "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ..." Changing unclean to clean would be "new" and "not according" . This is were people get confused . God has made a New Covenant , and it is marvelous in our eyes ! Ephesians 2:15 " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity , even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man , so making peace ." Its the cross (verse 16 ) that msde the difference ! Tom


I'm really confused here. I can't speak to the Ezekiel passage as I've not studied it, but can you someone tell me how Peter's vision abolishes the dietary laws? Wasn't that about Gentiles being not considered unclean by the Jews?

Wouldn't applying another meaning to what Peter stated the vision was about be speculation?

(06-25-2012 05:33 PM)corecrash Wrote:  [quote='so loved' pid='8760' dateline='1327161268']
True, God is God and He can do what He wants . The differance between what God told Ezekiel and what He told Peter is significant. He told Ezekiel he could substitute (but still unclean) ,He told Peter He had "made" it clean ! Acts 11:9 "What God has cleansed, that call not common" . A bit different .This is part of Jeremiah 31:31 , were God said "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ..." Changing unclean to clean would be "new" and "not according" . This is were people get confused . God has made a New Covenant , and it is marvelous in our eyes ! Ephesians 2:15 " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity , even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man , so making peace ." Its the cross (verse 16 ) that msde the difference ! Tom


When I read what you quoted in Ephesians 2:15 It sure made me think, wow, there it is..the verse I've been looking for that shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God abolished the Law. I can't help but to wonder why God just didn't say through the writer that "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the Law; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" Note: I used quotes just to separate it from the rest of the words, not that it's an exact quote.

I also wondered why the translator didn't capitalize the word law since the word Law is capitalized on other places when referring to God's Law. IE: 1st Corinth 6:9 "For it is written in the Law of Moses, 'YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.' God is not concerned about oxen is he?" So why did the translator do the same here since we are saying law of the commandments contained in ordinances refers to the Law of Moses?

I'm not an expert on Greek or Hebrew or anything. I just have this program, Logos Bible Study Software, to guide me and lookup concordance stuff. So correct me if I don't understand it.

First, I notice that a few words have been added by the translators and I personally like to leave those out if the passage still make sense without them. So I read it like this:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Then I wondered what does the original greek text say? I have an interlinear literal translation of the greek new testament that helps me with that. It says:

"the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in decrees having annulled, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace;"

So what the heck is "the law of commandments in decrees"? Is that the Law of Moses or God's Moral Law?

The word ordinances or decrees in the greek is dogma. Which it seems according to strong's seems to mean doctrine and opinion. It also refers to it as the law of moses but wouldn't that then read, "the law of commandments in Laws"?

The root word of dogma (1378) is dokeo (1380) and means, I think, seem, appear, it seems. Of the root word, strong's says:

1380 dokéō – properly, suppose (what "seems to be"), forming an opinion (a personal judgment, estimate).

1380 /dokéō ("suppose") directly reflects the personal perspective (values) of the person making the subjective judgment call, i.e. showing what they esteem (or not) as an individual.

[1380 (dokéō) is the root of: 1378 (dógma), 1391 (dóksa), and 2106 (eudokéō). Each cognate stresses "the subjective mental estimate or opinion about a matter" (R. Trench, 304).]

Also given that Paul says this "law of commandments in ordinances" puts enmity between the two groups causing hatred and division. Are we really to accuse the pure Law of God of causing hatred and division? What would say then about this verse:

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Romans 7:12

That doesn't make much sense to me. Interpreting it his way would make Paul a liar and then, can we trust anything he said?

So it seems to me that really what he is saying is this:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the opinions and dogma about the commandments; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Does that make sense to anyone else? Thoughts or other information that sheds light on the above?
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06-25-2012, 11:37 PM
Post: #5
RE: Does Ezekiel 4 pertain to Peter's Vision of the Sheet?
corecrash I will direct to the main thread this topic was discussed in simply because that is what you are wanting to discuss.

Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food?
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=37

Also please consider reading >

What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=13

Was that a Renewed Covenant or New Covenant
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=12

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=811

Hebrew Roots FAQS & Myths
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=583

Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]?
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=61

Those antinomian christians...
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=206

There;s more that would likely work for your various topics you are discussing. Thank you.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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