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jazzy · (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 06:06 PM by Vic.)

(01-03-2009 02:17 AM)strefanash Wrote: Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
IT IS HARD FOR THEE TO KICK AGAINST THE PRICKS.

Stref:
languages change. In British English and in my home country New Zealand, which is fairly close to British English but diverging all the time the word PRICK, as a noun, has an extra meaning which is something quite obscene.

Its not a good idea to use an archaic word when the same word in modern has a totally different meaning even if it is alongside other more common meanings.

I have never seen this word appear with the meaning i am talking about in American English, but here in NZ, Australia and England it is obscene.

I wil tell you if you really dont know, which would prove my point, actually

but maybe by PM. Seriously, even though i find it uproariously funny

Hello Stref,

I'm a little late on this but I wanted to add my 2c2

. Let me ask you this, is there a library in the town you live in and if so do they have a copy of "Moby Dick"? Have they taken it off the shelves yet? Get my drift? Biggrin

truthbetold · 06-27-2010, 07:02 PM

I like my Kjv i do not use the Niv no more because i hate reading something then the next verse is gone simple not there. it throws me of tract and i do not like it.

***Vic*** · 06-27-2010, 07:28 PM

(06-27-2010 07:02 PM)truthbetold Wrote: I like my Kjv i do not use the Niv no more because i hate reading something then the next verse is gone simple not there. it throws me of tract and i do not like it.

I really love reading the Scriptures and KJV to me is so enjoyable. I know the short time we used NIV it totally messed up all the memorization I had thru KJV and the change in verses and meaning was always an issue that nagged at me. And yes, missing verses is a real stumbler. But it does explain the various changes in doctrine that people have obtained thru such as NIV.

grafted · 06-27-2010, 10:08 PM

Can you "briefly" outline some of these missing verses?

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2010 10:35 AM by sheep wrecked.)

(06-27-2010 10:08 PM)grafted Wrote: Can you "briefly" outline some of these missing verses?

Vic has some excellent charts on her website comparing the different versions - found at this link:

http://www.seekgod.ca/chart.htm

heb13-13 · 07-18-2010, 01:35 AM

(06-27-2010 10:08 PM)grafted Wrote: Can you "briefly" outline some of these missing verses?

Warning this is long. I fully realize that the moderators may delete this, however it is quite extensive and informative. You may however just want to give the link at the bottom that I have provided. I don't know anything else about the website except this one page that I have read.
I have all of this information in several of my own books, however, for the sake of time, I chose to cut and paste and provide the reference.

"... there are OVER 2000 omissions from the modern day Bibles that have culiminated in a grand total of just over 64000 words missing in the NIV Bible.. These verses were REMOVED before writing these modern day Bibles for a reason. PLUS there are countless "rewrites" that make it clear that "... Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word..." Mark 4:15"

Here are few examples:

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAT 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAT 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAT 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAR 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAR 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAR 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAR 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
MAR 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

ALL the verses of Mark 16:9-20 are BRACKETED in the NASB. The NIV places a disclaimer stating... "The most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20"

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
LUK 17:36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
LUK 23:17 (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
ACS 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
ACS 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

REMOVED from NIV and BRACKETED in NASB
ROM 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.

VERSES THAT HAVE BEEN CHANGED

ACTS 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Both the NIV and NASB remove the "Holy Ghost" and replace it with "Spirit"

ACTS 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The NIV changes "Godhead" to "Divine BEING"

The NASB changes "Godhead" to "Divine NATURE"

REV 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Both the NIV and the NASB TOTALLY REMOVE "I am the Alpha and Omega" from their pages.

JOHN 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

The NIV removes "the Christ" and replaces it with the words, "this man"

The NASB removes "the Christ" and replaces it with "this One"

MAT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "God" and replace it with "One who is good"

JOS 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if [it be] in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)

Both the NIV and NASB remove "The Lord God of gods" and replace it with "The mighty one"

1CO 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "Jesus Christ" and simply leave it "the Lord"

EXO 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. (all KJV verses will be in blue)

Both the NIV and NASB remove His name "Jehovah" and replace it with "The Lord"

2CO 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Both the NIV and the NASB remove the name JESUS and leave simply "Christ"

DNL 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Both the NIV and NASB change it from "The Son of God" to "a son of the gods"

JOHN 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Both the NIV and the NASB change it from "the Son of God" to the "Son of Man" They even "capitalize the word, "Man"

MAT 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Both the NIV and NASB remove the word "firstborn" from their version. Why? It allows for the "doctrine of devils" that proclaim Mary was a virgin forever and had no more children other than Jesus. "Firstborn" proves there will be more.

LUKE 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Both the NIV and NASB replace the name "Joseph" with "father." Why? Is this to place a "lower" value on Jesus Himself, making Him appear to be NOT the Son of God, but simply the son of Joseph? Would a inexperienced Christian see it this way?

LUKE 24:51,52 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

The NIV removes "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:" from their version.

The NASB removes all of "and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him," from their version

JOHN 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

The NIV removes "begotten Son" and replaces it with, "God the one and only"

The NASB remove "begotten Son" and replaces it with, "begotten God"

ROM 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The NASB replaces "It is Christ" with "Christ Jesus is he who died"

ACTS 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

The NASB changes "the living God" to "a living God"

1JO 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The NIV totally removes "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." and then continues on with verse eight which speaks of earthly things making them appear as Heavenly.

The NASB totally removes the entire verse and relaces it with the bottom half of verse six, thereby splitting and altering verse six as well.

EPH 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Both the NIV and NASB change it from "fruit of the Spirit" to "fruit of the light" Why light? because 2Corinthians 11:14 says... "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

REV 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Both the NIV and NASB omit the words, "them which are saved"

ROM 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Both the NIV and NASB replace "his Son Jesus Christ our Lord" with "his Son"

Can you see a "pattern" emerging yet? Do you see why certain words are being removed? Watch the next few verses. Notice how the "flesh" or "worldliness" is placed up front instead the Almighty, His Kingdom, and a Christian way of life.

REV 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

The NIV changes "King of the saints" to "King of the ages"

The NASB changes "King of the saints" to "King of the nations"

MAT 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Both the NIV and NASB replace "endo of the world" with "end of the age" Why? The devil does NOT want anyone to believe that the World IS going to end.

MAR 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

The NIV removes "take up thy cross" and replaces it with "then come follow me"

The NASB simply puts, "come follow me"

2PET 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Both the NIV and NASB remove the word "holy" and simply leave "men" making it appear as ANYONE can speak for God Almighty.

1PET 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Both the NIV and NASB remove the word "pure" and simply leave the word "heart" Why? "Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Mat 5:8

2TIM 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The NIV removes the word "perfect" and replaces it with "thoroughly equipped"

The NASB removes the word "perfect" and replaces it with the words "adeuate, equipped" Why? To make Jesus appear to NOT be "perfect" and therfore a "faulty" Saviour.

PRO 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

The NIV removes the word "righteousness" and replaces it with "prosperity" How blunt can you get? Prosperity is preached in almost ALL churches of today because of this lie. I know people who truly believe they are not blessed of God because they don't have "nice things." Yet the Word says in Mat 6:19,20 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:"

JER 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

The NIV replaces the word "peace" with the word "prosper"

The NASB replaces the word "peace" with the word "welfare." You see how it is preached that having materials things will give you "peace"?

1TIM 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

The NASB alters the verse to read... "godliness actually is a means of great gain"

HEB 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Both the NIVand NASB replace the word "rejoicing" with the word "boast"

2CO 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2CO 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The NIV replaces the words, "rejoicing" and "your rejoicing" with the word "boast"

The NASB replaces the words "rejoice" and "your rejoicing" with the word "proud"

1TIM 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

The NIV totally omits the words "godly edifying"

The NASB replaces the words "godly edifying" with "furthering the administration"

Can you see how "mankind", "flesh" and "worldliness" is being glorified in these last few examples? Can you imagine a "babe in Christ" learning and "growing" from a Bible such as this? They will have an outlook that will be geared towards flesh, rather than the Spirit.

Now... look at the next few verses and see if you too don't see the NIV and NASB attempting to place mankind in a much higher state than then Word has actually placed us.

PSA 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

The NASB changes the verse from, "a little lower than the angels" to "a little lower than God"

PHI 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The NIV replaces the words, "our vile body" with "our lowly bodies"

The NASB replaces "our vile body" with "our humble state"

LUKE 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not llive by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Both the NIV and the NASB totally remove "but by every word of God"

Now for the issue of Salvation being in no one other than Jesus Christ. Notice how the following verses corrupt the message of salvation...

MARK 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Both the NIV and the NASB remove the words... "for them that trust in riches" Why? Re-read the above verse WITHOUT those words and see what it appears to be saying then. Kind of makes it all appear hopeless now doesn't it? Pray for those "babes in Christ" that read this and feel genuine distress.

LUKE 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Both the NIV and NASB rewrite the verse to read "By your endurnace you will gain your lives"

PHI 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Both the NIV and NASB replaces the name "Christ" with the word "Him." the NIV doesn't even capitalize the word "Him"!

1TIM 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Both the NIV and NASB replace "God" with "He"

ACTS 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Both the NIV and NASB totally remove the phrase "thou art God" from the Bible.

MAT 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Both the NIV and the NASB totally remove the name "Jesus." from this verse. Actually, the NIV removes the name Jesus from their version 38 times! The NASB removes the name "Jesus" 73 times!

REV 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

GAL 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,

MAT 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "God" from these verses and replace His name with the word, "He"

ACTS 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "the name of the Lord" and replace it with "His name."

REV 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Both the NIV and NASB "ADD" words to this verse. They change "having his Father's name written in their foreheads." with this to read "having his HIS NAME AND HIS Father's name written in their foreheads.

PHI 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "God" from this verse in the context it is in.

The next three verses are an outright "rewrite" that totally changes the meaning of the Scripture involved. It is so blatantly evil that I am confused how people hold on to these Bibles at all.

ISA 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The NIV removes "O Lucifer" and replaces it with "O morning star"

The NASB removes "O Lucifer" and replaces it with "O star of the morning." Why is this such a big deal? Because REV 22:16 plainly states that, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star." Jesus is the bright and morning star, NOT Lucifer!

ACTS 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

Both the NIV and NASB change the words "too superstitious" to "very religious"

COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Both the NIV and the NASB replace "not seen" with "has seen"

Pretty eye-opening isn't it? It is a sad thing when you think about all the ministers out there that were TAUGHT with these Bibles. It makes it easier to understand now why only 2% of all American student ministers believe in a second coming of Jesus now doesn't it? This was the results of a "Pittsburgh Press" poll taken on Sept 24, 1977. That's over 20 years ago people! These students are PASTOR'S, PREACHERS, AND MINISTERS RIGHT NOW ALL ACROSS THIS LAND!

Notice the following verses. See if you don't see a "different" message emerging from these alterations of man.

ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Both the NIV and NASB remove the phrase "But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace:" from this verse.

COL 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Both the NIV and the NASB remove "through his blood" from this verse.

MARK 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

The NASB changes this verse from "believe in me" to "who believe"

JOHN 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Both the NIV and NASB remove the words "on me"

ACTS 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Both the NIV and NASB changed this verse to say "calling on his name"

ACTS 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

The NIV TOTALLY removes this verse from their version. They even removed the number. It goes from verse 36 to 38. Some Bibles have gone so far as to split up either verse 36 or verse 38 to fill in for the missing verse 37. Why was this verse removed? They baptize babies in Catholicism and some other denominations. A baby cannot PROCLAIM that they "believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.", so, they remove the verse rather than change their doctrines and continue on baptizing infants even though an infant cannot do what the Word says is necessary for the reception of Baptism.

ROM 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "of Christ" from this verse.

GAL 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "For in Christ Jesus" from this verse.

EPH 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Both the NIV and NASB remove "of our Lord Jesus Christ"

EPH 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Both the NIV and NASB remove "by Jesus Christ" from their version.

GAL 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "through Christ"

COL 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Both the NIV and NASB remove "and the Lord Jesus Christ" from this verse.

Now for what they say about the Holy Spirit and Angel spirits:

PSA 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Both the NIV and NASB rearrange this verse to read... "He makes the winds his messengers, Flaming fire His ministers" Why? Because EPH 2:2 reveals, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" The "winds" as it were are the devil's domain! Need I comment on the twist of words apparent on "Flaming fire?"

HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Both the NIV and NASB change "Who maketh his angels spirits" to read "Who makes His angels winds"

Taken from http://www.remnantofgod.org/B-BIBLES.HTM#bogusbibles

Saltyone · 02-16-2011, 12:31 PM

You really don’t have to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar to know which one if from God.
When you know and understand who Jesus is, you can discern the counterfeit bibles. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and he will show you all that is true.
Example
Rev 22:16 KJV
16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus said in this verse that he is the morning star

Isaiah 14: 11-12 NIV
11: All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps: maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
12: How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

In the NIV this is showing and saying that Jesus, the morning star, has fallen from heaven and been cast down to the earth.

Same verse in the KJV
Isaiah 14:11-12
11: Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Lucifers name has been taken out of this verse and in his place they put Jesus. Lucifer is never called the morning star. The NIV blasphemes Jesus. Other versions do the same thing. This is an abomination to claim that Jesus has fallen from heaven and been cast down to the earth.
You don’t have to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar to see this deception. The words speak for themselves and the Spirit of Truth discerns all things.

Steven Avery · (This post was last modified: 06-06-2011 12:24 AM by Steven Avery.)

Hi Folks,

strefanash Wrote:Then there is the "did you receive the spirit since you believed" appearing in acts somewhere. The greek was "And believing, did you receive" the whole sense of "since" as in a time after you believed, is a mistranslation, did you receive WHEN you believed" is correct, and pentecostals make heresy on the KJV reading.

James White has in recent days tried to make this attack on the AV.

Acts 19:2
He said unto them,
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him,
We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

From a pure grammar perspective, it seems that either translation is generally considered feasible, except that when adds definite time that is not in the Greek. Thus an attempted limitation to when (a change that became popular in the 1800s when Greek scholarship was less deep than in the Reformation era) has obvious contextual problems, since Apollos and the disciples in Acts 19 received the Holy Spirit, and this was after they first believed. Conceptually they could have received the Holy Spirit after first belief but before Paul baptized them, and this would create a huge puzzle for a when.

Thomas Holland discusses this verse here:

Manuscript Evidences - Lesson Eleven: Translational Considerations
http://www.wilderness-cry.net/bible_stud...son11.html

Will Kinney here, with more detail about the context I mention above.

Acts 19:2 and Ephesians 1:13 - Answering the Bible Critics
http://brandplucked.webs.com/acts192eph113.htm

It is quite common for those straining to accuse the pure Bible to pick up a fallacious argument from James White or another writer, and they often will give the argument without attribution. A little research will connect the dots.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY

***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 06:14 PM by Vic.)

(06-06-2011 12:19 AM)Steven Avery Wrote: Hi Folks,

strefanash Wrote:Then there is the "did you receive the spirit since you believed" appearing in acts somewhere. The greek was "And believing, did you receive" the whole sense of "since" as in a time after you believed, is a mistranslation, did you receive WHEN you believed" is correct, and pentecostals make heresy on the KJV reading.

James White has in recent days tried to make this attack on the AV.

Acts 19:2
He said unto them,
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him,
We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

From a pure grammar perspective, it seems that either translation is generally considered feasible, except that when adds definite time that is not in the Greek. Thus an attempted limitation to when (a change that became popular in the 1800s when Greek scholarship was less deep than in the Reformation era) has obvious contextual problems, since Apollos and the disciples in Acts 19 received the Holy Spirit, and this was after they first believed. Conceptually they could have received the Holy Spirit after first belief but before Paul baptized them, and this would create a huge puzzle for a when.

Thomas Holland discusses this verse here:

Manuscript Evidences - Lesson Eleven: Translational Considerations
http://www.wilderness-cry.net/bible_stud...son11.html

Will Kinney here, with more detail about the context I mention above.

Acts 19:2 and Ephesians 1:13 - Answering the Bible Critics
http://brandplucked.webs.com/acts192eph113.htm

It is quite common for those straining to accuse the pure Bible to pick up a fallacious argument from James White or another writer, and they often will give the argument without attribution. A little research will connect the dots.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY

Hi Steven,

Thank you Steven, for that info. Very interesting reads. There were comments that Will Kinney made that we run into all the time here:

"a prime example of those who CLAIM to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, yet have no inerrant Bible to recommend to anyone.

...White does not believe "the Bible" exists that does not contain errors. He even corrects his own NASB. The only "inerrant Bible" James believes in is the imaginary and mystical bible he keeps making up as he goes along, and his "bible" differs from everybody else's

...White says: "I fully believe the Word of God IS INERRANT." The truth is Mr. White does not believe there is such a thing as the inerrant words of God in any Bible or any single text in any language anywhere on this earth. His real position is that ONLY the non-existent and never seen by him "originals WERE inspired and inerrant", but James has no such thing NOW, and he knows it. For James White to SAY he believes in something HE KNOWS does not exist, and cannot show to anyone alive today, is not (in his own words) "to follow the truth to its logical conclusions". Not one time in his entire book does Mr. White ever tell the reader where they can find for themsleves a copy of "the inerrant word of God" he says he fully believes in."

That really is the foundational argument of those who say they believe in the originals, but can never provide them. Time and again, Biblical Truth is twisted and overturned because of just that belief, and hence promotion of the belief that God could never possibly ever be able to protect His Word, or even the intent behind His Word. No, the God they follow is an inept, incapable God, who gives us His revelation, but really, it is not His Word, so no one need read it, because all those deniers of God being able to give and protect His Word, willingly provide all the 'doctrine' and understanding of those uninspired and protected words for us that one could ever need.

What is sad is many fall prey to the error and grasp onto very clear heresies when denying the protection and inspiration of the Scriptures. The denial of scripture as God's Word is ever expanding and things like the 'lying scribes' and deliberate corruption by unknown scribes etc, is being promoted heavily. Some of that ended up being addressed in the

What's the True Name of God http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...73&page=10 then forward to post 111-116, 119-120

That likely needs to be split into a new thread in this section.

If we cannot believe the Bible as God's Word and True and holding the Truth we need, then the very foundations of belief are destroyed.

Psa 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

computerdoc · 10-28-2011, 07:02 PM

(01-25-2009 09:22 PM)Vic Wrote: I started using KJV when I was 14. Never read a Bible before then and don't know why my parents had it in the house. The Holy Spirit opened my understanding. It wasn't about me. It was about wanting to know what He has to say in it. Jesus said:

I don't find it archaic but quite beautiful to read. Especially in the Psalms. I am no scholar of higher learning, nor seek after book after book or teacher after teacher to explain it.

[color=#006400]Vic you are correct about the KJV often being beautiful. Even more beautiful to those of us that heard it often as children or growing adults.

The main reason I do not use it often is because of what the lady from Australia said. [sorry I forgot her name].

Many of the words do not mean the same now as they did back in 1611 was it?

Just as Paul said something like this in the CPV "I have become all things to all men that by all means I may win some"

[By the way the CPV is my initials and V for version .... I use that when I know the content of the verse but not the actual words]

And today as a former educator, I know that if anything the average level of reading has decreased rather than increased. So whatever gets the meaning across I would use that version.

There are some versions that I would not use because they are "created" by various groups such as JW's. IT is interesting to see where they change the Bible but I would never use it as authoritative.

God bless you
I like NIV OR NKJ to read but if reading on and Android phone or tablet the AND Bible app is one of the best since you can download many free translations into your phone or tablet.

I often use the MKJV and the WEB because when comparing them to the actual versions I read they communicate the same ideas.

[I could not introduce myself because the area was closed and newbies cannot start new threads even tho it is suggested.]

Charles
2 degrees [both above zero]
About 40 blogs and websites [I KNOW it's crazy!"
2 wonderful daughters
3 wonderful sons-in-law [due to the early death of one of them]
1 fantastic wife
Many white mice, gerbils and hamsters and fish through the years
Two comforting black manxes, one with a short tail and one with a regular tail who has the most silky minklike fur I have ever petted.
1 God in 3 persons
1 eternal home
1 temporal one
Almost 68 years of youth

Some day I will grow up and find out what I want to do (:-)

God bless you!
Computerdoc