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Ekklesia · 09-11-2011, 03:52 PM

(09-11-2011 08:45 AM)Mary Wrote: here is a christian identity doctrinal statement. notice the language used.
[hotlink edited by vic---please copy and paste into your browser >> ] kingidentity.com/doctrine.htm

Mary, are you saying that simply finding an example of an error is sufficient to show the whole is in error? If I can find an example of a non-Identity Christian making a clearly false statement in their doctrine, will you agree your doctrine is false? I doubt you will, because I believe you have a sense that it would be a fallacy, just like the one you committed (hasty Generalization)

A subset, or an example, does not an entire belief system make. For example, I accept Calvinists as 'real' non-Identity Christians, but I don't judge your belief system by theirs. I don't even judge all of 'popular' Christianity by the false doctrine the Calvinist position represents. That would be the same hasty generalization fallacy you just gave us an example of.

I don't doubt you can find all sorts of examples of error in both CI/BI doctrine, and in the wide range of 'modern' popular evangelical Christian doctrine. To show CI/BI false, you need to overthrow the foundational idea that God's promises to Israel are manifest in the Christian church today because the Church IS Israel; which also suggests the need to prove wrong - the historical idea that Israel migrated to Europe, and that it's identity as 'Israel', was forfeit when God rejected them, but that their rejection was not permanent however they are known today. These as the common features of all CI/BI belief.

This is precisely why you, and Vic should concentrate on finding the errors in what I say, rather than in what others say, since I am the one you are engaging and am responsible for my own words. I also make every effort to argue core CI/BI belief (whether or not I am successful)

Mary · 09-12-2011, 02:29 AM

(09-11-2011 03:52 PM)Ekklesia Wrote:
(09-11-2011 08:45 AM)Mary Wrote: here is a christian identity doctrinal statement. notice the language used.
[hotlink edited by vic---please copy and paste into your browser >> ] kingidentity.com/doctrine.htm

Mary, are you saying that simply finding an example of an error is sufficient to show the whole is in error? If I can find an example of a non-Identity Christian making a clearly false statement in their doctrine, will you agree your doctrine is false? I doubt you will, because I believe you have a sense that it would be a fallacy, just like the one you committed (hasty Generalization)

A subset, or an example, does not an entire belief system make. For example, I accept Calvinists as 'real' non-Identity Christians, but I don't judge your belief system by theirs. I don't even judge all of 'popular' Christianity by the false doctrine the Calvinist position represents. That would be the same hasty generalization fallacy you just gave us an example of.

I don't doubt you can find all sorts of examples of error in both CI/BI doctrine, and in the wide range of 'modern' popular evangelical Christian doctrine. To show CI/BI false, you need to overthrow the foundational idea that God's promises to Israel are manifest in the Christian church today because the Church IS Israel; which also suggests the need to prove wrong - the historical idea that Israel migrated to Europe, and that it's identity as 'Israel', was forfeit when God rejected them, but that their rejection was not permanent however they are known today. These as the common features of all CI/BI belief.

This is precisely why you, and Vic should concentrate on finding the errors in what I say, rather than in what others say, since I am the one you are engaging and am responsible for my own words. I also make every effort to argue core CI/BI belief (whether or not I am successful)

We have found and shown you biblically a lot of errors in what you say.

To show CI/BI false, you need to overthrow the foundational idea that God's promises to Israel are manifest in the Christian church today because the Church IS Israel; which also suggests the need to prove wrong - the historical idea that Israel migrated to Europe, and that it's identity as 'Israel', was forfeit when God rejected them, but that their rejection was not permanent however they are known today. These as the common features of all CI/BI belief.[/color]

This paragraph does not even make sense as a construction of ideas in itself but also seems to contradict your original position about 'CHURCH' . Israel is the church? but God has rejected them? Confusing.

I think you are also trying to be too clever. You identified yourself as an orthodox Christian who dislikes labels and isn't concerned about "christian non-essentials ( do you decide what that means?) You identified yourself as an Israelite in connection with CI and BI beliefs, so you were not indicating that that your beliefs are separate from core CI and BI beliefs. You also do not separate yourself from the known "fruit" of these two movements. It has taken 140 posts for you to say what you believe, but I think none of us are really any the wiser.

We have said and shown you that your "bottom line" quote ".. came only for the House of Israel" was said in the context of Jesus reaching out to all people. You say you believe only what Jesus said, but ignore what He said in John.

You seem to pick and choose verses and sections of the bible which appear to support your belief that you are a bloodline Israelite. Are you still saved if you are proven to not be? Go back through the thread. you haven't proved your position biblically or historically. Just saying you have doesn't make it so.

If Europeans and Europeans who migrated to America are the House of Israel whom Jesus came to save, what is their fruit?
Catholicism
Sexual immorality
abortion
euthanasia
idolatry
love of money
etc etc

It makes no sense at all Ekklesia. What is your goal in supporting CI and BI doctrine? There is no light in it for anyone. There is no Grace either, only dubious and unprovable possibilities of bloodline to a small group of people who have long intermingled with many other races.

Then look at the fruit of BI and CI: it is well known for hatred, racism dissension, disputings, hatred etc. Why align yourself with them. It is not really clear to me whether your beliefs are core or mainstream BI and CI, or the information that is freely available on the internet (such as I posted previously ) are the core or mainstream beliefs. It doesn't matter, you said you follow those beliefs, and you did not differentiate.

If your belief is true, then what is the point of anyone believing in God and in Jesus death and resurrection? Because if you are an Israelite, you'll be saved automatically, or if you do decide to reject God, then you won't be: you'll be a "rejected Israelite" and then everyone else will just die and never know God.

Ekklesia · 09-12-2011, 04:04 PM

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: We have found and shown you biblically a lot of errors in what you say.

Can you cite an example of something I've said, that is biblically erroneous? I think anyone following the 'debate' so far would be hard pressed to see where you've shown me in error, or where I've misused the bible. So far I've been entirely accurate in my use of the bible.

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: This paragraph does not even make sense as a construction of ideas in itself but also seems to contradict your original position about 'CHURCH' . Israel is the church? but God has rejected them? Confusing.

Mary, if you're confused, no worries. Many others are as well (primarily because they ignore how Messianic the OT is, and therefore ignore it). The idea is simple, but one needs to read OT prophecy to see it. From Hosea - Israel was rejected by God (for a while) [Hos 1:6,8][Hos 2:16], but not forgotten [Isa 44:21][Isa 49:15]. Also from Hosea, this same people 'rejected' will be transformed [Hos 2:16,23][Hos 3:1,5] but not remember the shame of her youth [Isa 54:4].

From [Isa 62:2] we know that Israel would be called by a 'new name' (since they would not longer be permitted to profane the name God gave them [Eze 20:9,14,22][Eze 36:20-23]). God gave Jacob the name 'Israel' [b][Gen 32:28], and it was by the name 'Israel' (which pointed back to God [Gen 32:28]) God was known to the nations surrounding [Jer 7:14].

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: I think you are also trying to be too clever.

There's no use in me even trying Mary, I never succeed.

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: It has taken 140 posts for you to say what you believe, but I think none of us are really any the wiser.

Actually, it took me one; my first. My first post stated that my intention was to advocate for the truthfulness of BI/CI doctrine, which is that modern Christianity does not know who "Israel" is in the world today, Biblically, or Historically. Accordingly, modern Christianity commits heresy by spiritualising promises made to the people of Israel.

I've shown you how the doctrine of 'church' is built off a mis-translation of the work 'assembly', 'congregation' which referred to the assembly/congregation of Israel. Neither you nor Vic have dis-proven that assertion (which is likely why you're trying to change the direction of the debate).

I've further shown how all of the promises the 'church' assumes for itself, applied to Israel. You haven't refuted that.

Finally I've shown you Jesus' very own claim that he came to Israel, and that he sent his disciples to Israel. You and Vic have shown you disbelieve Him, but have not explained how you can love Him but not believe His words.

If you continue to profess to believe Jesus, but deny his words, I would agree with you, that you are still none-the wiser.

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: It makes no sense at all Ekklesia. What is your goal in supporting CI and BI doctrine? There is no light in it for anyone. There is no Grace either, only dubious and unprovable possibilities of bloodline to a small group of people who have long intermingled with many other races.

Mary, that is an excellent question. If God's word, shows his intent, and his intent was to provide the means of restoring his creation. We should believe Him, No? (I think you do)

What if God's word shows the History of his relationship to His people Israel, and His prophecies promise the continuance of this relationship forward through the entire new covenant and on towards the eschaton; Shouldn't we believe Him?

What if his word shows more than this? What if his word shows specifics that can be tied to history; how his bride Israel [Isa 54:5] was rejected, sent to the wilderness, only to come back to her husband (after his death), blind, deaf, and dead, to be redeemed? If the Bible illuminated history, Would you believe Him then? (This is the story in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and especially the first three verses of Hosea). The chapter [Romans 7] (especially [Rom 7:2-3]) is Paul's summary of [Hosea], he quotes Hosea throughout)

Consider a doctrinal question: If God promised Israel that He would be their God forever, and they would be His people forever, do you believe Israel is God's people today if they reject Him? Who is more likely God's people - the people who continue to reject Him (though He promised they wouldn't), or the people who proclaim His name throughout the entire earth and worship Him as glorious (whatever they call themselves)? Or do you imagine God's promise was only figurative (not literal)?

The light in it then, is the understanding of His word and acceptance of His truth and faithfulness throughout His complete word. If you read the old testament, and cannot see how God has done all of the things He promised, understanding is diminished. But when you can see how the entire bible works, and is true, you see how the grace of God goes beyond mere individuals, and how the OT was messianic! You rejoice.

There is Grace there because it shows God's faithfulness to His nation, His kingdom also is true. It also shows that just as God is able to redeem people, he is able to redeem nations, Kingdoms.

However, in saying this I reject that I'm the one picking and choosing verses. I believe the entire bible, cover to cover, I just happen to believe it more literally than you (or Vic) because I don't spiritualise it while ignoring large chunks. Jesus said all of God's word pointed to Him, and His ministry. So we should be able to see the new covenant in all of the OT.

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: Then look at the fruit of BI and CI: it is well known for hatred, racism dissension, disputings, hatred etc.

You make it sound like Calvinism. Unfortunately Mary, all of us are fallen, in every doctrine. I've never denied there are proponents of BI/CI who err, and may be false claimants to being Christians. But that truth is hardly isolated to BI/CI Christians; it is true of all Christians, in all doctrinal traditions, including some who share your understanding of biblical doctrine. I share your disdain for all those who profess to be Christian's are are not, whatever their doctrine.

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: Why align yourself with them. It is not really clear to me whether your beliefs are core or mainstream BI and CI, or the information that is freely available on the internet (such as I posted previously ) are the core or mainstream beliefs. It doesn't matter, you said you follow those beliefs, and you did not differentiate.

Because Mary, if the doctrine itself is biblical and true, it is worthy of being believed, no matter who else believes it. I cannot reject it because of who else believes it. Rejection of any truth is a rejection of Christ (who was the embodiment of truth). Remember, even the demons believed that Jesus was the Son of God; does that mean we shouldn't have also believed it?

In this world, God has done a marvellous thing, and written about it; He has cast off His bride, and redeemed her, though she didn't remember she was His bride, or the He was her God; He has hidden His treasure in a field; He has paid an unbelievable price for His great pearl.

These things not only show how faithful God is (and will be), but they show that the bible, God's word, is one complete story uniform in purpose and revelation. They show how God formulated a plan for Himself, for Israel, and for the world (which is plain in the OT), and that He perfected it all in the work of Christ.

But the devil, who is a liar, and hates truth, has been permitted to hide this. He mocks it by associating it with haters and non-Christians, (perhaps more-so than main-stream Christianity). Even so, if it true, I personally cannot let its association in the world stop me from rejoicing in God and proclaiming His work faithfully, any more than Paul could.

(09-12-2011 02:29 AM)Mary Wrote: If your belief is true, then what is the point of anyone believing in God and in Jesus death and resurrection? Because if you are an Israelite, you'll be saved automatically, or if you do decide to reject God, then you won't be: you'll be a "rejected Israelite" and then everyone else will just die and never know God.

No. Not true. Simply because one is an Israelite doesn't make one 'saved'. No matter who one is, one must believe that faith in the blood of Christ is the only means by which God's wrath can be stayed (full stop).

However, knowing that God promised to Israel, to make Israel a light of the world templated upon the perfect Israelite - Jesus Christ, to reject Israel, to reclaim Israel and to forge a new covenant with them, and was true in every respect reveals the fullness of God's faithfulness, and the truthfulness of God's word. It also harmonises an understanding of history with an understanding of God's prophecy.

Mary · 09-13-2011, 05:13 PM

Ekklesia, we have taken you through Matthew 15 and Mark 7 and shown you that taking one phrase out of context is erroneous, we have taken you to Jesus words in John and we have shown you Romans, and your errors there, and your ideas on church and ecclesia has been refuted.

now you bring up Romans 7; again you interpret Scripture according to a preconceived idea, and twist what is being said to please your own beliefs.

Romans 7 follows on from Romans 4 :

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

browbeating readers into accepting that you have put forward biblical arguments, and repeating that we have not believed Jesus words, nor provided biblical refutation of your beliefs, does not make it so. Read back through the thread, again.

***Vic*** · 10-02-2011, 04:04 PM

If one does a search on the 'net about Christian Identity, whether just as a search term or with parameters about how governments view it and so on, invariably the following comes out:

--extremist--hate group
--racist
--white supremacist or similar
--sometimes violent or aggressive

While some cry foul over those descriptors, the reality is those are the hallmarks of Christian Identity. It has spawned the KKK, Posse Comatatus, Aryan Nations, Nazi-white power, Neo Nazi's, "patriot" groups, and other variations of white supremacy groups. It goes by the labels of Christian Identity, True Israel, Israel Identity, Anglo-Israel, British Israel---variations, Lost Tribes doctrine etc. It claims to be true Christianity while perverting and denying various Scriptures, while also claiming to fully believe all the Bible. Jesus said:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

While many Christian Identity use the terms, white race, caucasian, anglo Israel, european whites, british Israel, etc, what they most often mean is the Germanic, Scandinavian, British, 'aryan', 'anglo-saxon-nordic nations', comprise what they view as the ten lost tribes, the real Israel --which have never been lost. Christian Identity proponents who hedge over the words caucasian or white race or similar, are merely trying to distinguish their Identity beliefs as being somewhat better or above the racism and hate group persona portrayed by most, including government writings, and identification by hate group watch as such. Genesis 10:1-32 names most of the nations that developed from the three sons of Noah, but not all of them.

Identity adherents believe they are the only descendants of Adam, and the only chosen descendants of Abraham, hence all of Israel. All other 'nonwhite' races are viewed as either: soulless, the beasts of the field mentioned in Genesis 1:24, mud people, serpent seed, single line serpent seed, etc. Most view Jews as of Satan, or variations of different lineage-not Israel, and definitely not God's chosen people, but rather enemies to be hated. As are the blacks and other races from the "lesser" or prior races. We know that someone is not of Christ if they hate others, including those who proclaim Jesus Christ in true belief, both Jews and Gentiles. To reject or hate someone because of race, is contrary to the love we are called to.

1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Many believe, and this was a foundational teaching of the movement, that Jesus was not a Jew of the tribe of Judah but an Aryan of the ten lost tribes of Israel and an ancestor of the present British, Germanic and Scandinavian people. This while claiming to believe the whole bible. But we know the Bible says this:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hosea, a prophet to the tribes of Israel, said, the following which fully depicts Israel:

Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

While following the foundational teachings of Howard Rand, Wesley Swift, Richard Butler, and many others, many claim to reject nazism-at least by the term, but maintain racist beliefs. It should be noted that while these people claim to be Christian--hence Christian Identity, Nazism by it's very nature hates Christians and Christianity. As do those who move in the circles of Christian Identity, because the beliefs are contrary to one another.

Identity beliefs are, aside from perverting and overturning the Scriptures to attempt to support their beliefs, are steeped in many occult and 'new age' beliefs as well as variations of beliefs labeled as Christian. One can find the beliefs from astrology, mystics, Edgar Cayce, 'demonology', racist hate literature etc., occult legends including pyramidology; sacred name movement, Jesus only or some variation, manifest sons of God, restoration and charismatic beliefs-- due to adherents from those specific doctrines joining Christian Identity and bringing some of those doctrines.

There is a contradictory belief concerning the Word of God by Identity adherents. While claiming to believe the whole Bible to be true, and such as we have seen here, it is stated it is mistranslated, the wrong words used, the imbedding of errant doctrine that one can't understand unless one knows the original Hebrew or Greek, or thinks in a Hebraic mindset etc. or understands through the lens of Christian Identity [Or British Israel/Lost Tribes/Two House/Hebrew Roots]. THose beliefs are all variants of Christian Identity.

Christian Identity [and British Israel, Lost Tribes, Two House] belief that the British, Scandinavian, and Germanic peoples are the lost tribes of Israel is an example of not knowing or understanding the Truth within the Scriptures. None of the tribes of Israel have been lost. As has been explained on this thread. While many of the northern tribes of Israel were carried into exile by Assyria, with some intermarrying with those they lived among, there is absolutely no biblical reference that would encourage this teaching of lost tribes. IN fact, we know that other verses mention the not lost tribes. Such as

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ekklesia's Christian Identity mantra about Christ's statement that He "was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" [Matt. 15:24] is not a reference whatsoever to tribes that had physically disappeared and were missing, but to people who were lost in sin. If they had disappeared and were physically lost, being in Jerusalem would not have found them. As had been explained many times, earlier, Jesus had sent His twelve disciples "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:6), and the disciples did not need to search for the people they were sent to speak to. They were told to go to them and not the Gentiles, to begin with.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Ezra led the exiled tribes---with CI claiming that ten tribes never returned--upon returning to the land, in sacrifices on behalf of all Israel, which included all 12 tribes.

Ezr 8:35 Also the children of those that had been carried away, which were come out of the captivity, offered burnt offerings unto the God of Israel, twelve bullocks for all Israel, ninety and six rams, seventy and seven lambs, twelve he goats for a sin offering: all this was a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Jesus appointed the 12 apostles for the ministry to the 12 tribes of the 'lost sheep of Israel'.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

The apostle Paul, who preached to his fellow Israelites, and was also called to preach to the Gentiles declared this, which proves the 12 tribes were known and recognised as not being physically lost:

Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Paul wrote of the Gentiles, distinguished from the circumcision, that is Jews, prior to being given opportunity to know Christ. He also noted that the Jews recognised that the Gentiles had been made partakers of the same spiritual things, and they had become brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Notice the commissioning of the Apostles after Jesus rose from the grave and the prophecies:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Psa 98:1 <A Psalm.> O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

I believe Rose also clearly explained that after the captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Babylonian captivity of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, all twelve tribes, whether they were living outside of Jerusalem or or not, were referred to as both Jews and Israel. [for ex. post 92, 93, 94] The Book of Ezra and the Book of Nehemiah, which present the history of the return of God's people to Jerusalem after their captivity, use both terms of Jews and Israel, to refer to the same people.

Incidently, with the return, those who could not prove their lineage to be of Israel, were not allowed to register:

Ezr 2:58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
Ezr 2:59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
Ezr 2:60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
Ezr 2:61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
Ezr 2:62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

See Ezra 1- Ezr 4; Nehemiah 1, 4, for examples of the interchangeable use of Israel and Jews.

Notice also that the Jews present in Jerusalem were from many many countries:

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And they are referred to as Jews, but Peter, a Jew as were all the apostles, in addressing them also refers to them as "Ye men of Israel" and "all the house of Israel":

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Paul refers to himself as both a Jew and an Israelite, and as had been brought up, his being a Roman citizen.

Paul also wrote of the "vessels of wrath" for the sake of those God would show mercy to and refers to the Jews and also Israel, and Gentiles. In Romans 9:23-24 Paul noted:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

In the same chapter he writes:
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But note he also wrote of being a Jew, and which refers to those of Israel versus Gentiles--who are not of Israel:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

As also explained in a prior post I believe, Jesus explained to the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews, (John 4:22), and not only called Himself a Jew but pointed her toward true worship and the truth of the awaited Messiah and promised salvation.

Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Christian Identity adherents are not the chosen people, rather they are the ones attacking the chosen people, the Jews by the varied attempts to remove their heritage and history from them. And they are also the ones ranting against the true church of Christ, which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles--people from all nations. The attempt to relegate other races, other than their depiction of 'true Israel, white race.etc' , to an earlier and/or inferior creation is an attack on the love of God, the Truth of the Scriptures, as well as the image of God in all humanity. God made man in His image, and that is what separates us from all other creatures. All mankind being made of one flesh, and which prepared the way for Christ to take unto Himself human flesh and redeem people of all races. The biblical truth of redemption, the awated Redeemer and those foundational issues are constantly brought together in Scripture, and specifically unity of mankind through salvation in Christ because all are made one in Him. No longer can there be differences as declared by Christian Identity and others of that or similar mindset.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

When Paul preached on Mars Hill he appealed to their common humanity as creations of the true God when he stated:

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

All may come to God through faith in Jesus Christ and it is not dependent on the color of one's skin or heritage, or race.

Jesus Christ is God's answer to racism. Paul admonished the Galatians to make no distinctions among those belonging to Jesus Christ. We/they are to be as one:

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ is declared as both, "the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David" and "a Lamb as it had been slain", in the book of Revelation. Scriptures show that those who belong to Jesus Christ will have come from every tribe, kindred, people and every nation.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

***Vic*** · 10-02-2011, 04:28 PM

Just going to address a few of the questions I had asked:

The White Race is God's choice to work his purposes? [White race meaning exclusion of non-caucasians or similar definitions.]

There is no Scripture that even suggests that.

Non-caucasians do not have souls?

All mankind has souls, and it is not dependent on race or 'color'.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 ***All flesh is not the same flesh: ****but there is one kind of flesh of men, ****another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 [b]The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [/b]
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Job 12:8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Can other than 'caucasians' ever be saved?

All may come to God through faith in Jesus Christ and it is not dependent on the color of one's skin or heritage, or race. Christian Identity proponents who hedge over the words caucasian or white race or similar, are merely trying to distinguish there Identity beliefs as being somewhat above the racism and hate group persona believed by most, including government identification as such.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Did Jesus pay for the sins of the House of Israel and House of Judah only, and salvation comes through redemption and race?

IN a sense, according to some Christian Identity beliefs, those not of 'true Israel' aren't men; don't have souls etc, so verses like John 1:7 become interpreted from that parameter. All men, means all 'white' or caucasian' or european, etc, however being True Israel is defined by that particular Christian Identity adherent, instead of meaning all mankind as is meant. That's also why many deny being racist. You actually have to believe all mankind includes all races/colors.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

all >G3956
pa??
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

whosoever >G3956
pa??
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective

world > Strong's G2889
??´sµ??
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.

G2889
??´sµ??
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:47 1Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from the base of G2865

men >G444
a?´????p??
anthro¯pos
Thayer Definition:
1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G435 and ops (the countenance, from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being

Please note this use:
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

If beasts of the field meant "non caucasians" or as Christian Identity posits---for the Jonah 3:8 v and Genesis 1:25v -- to mean Blacks---then are we to assume that God had Noah bring those unfortunate 'clean beasts' in to give sacrifice to God? Granted, we will see fancy footwork I am sure to negate God called for human sacrifice...except they are viewed by some Christian Identity proponents as soulless and not human as Adam was, but rather as 'beasts of the field'...

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

beast >of the earth>H2416
??
chay
BDB Definition:
1) living, alive (adjective)
1a) green (of vegetation)
1b) flowing, fresh (of water)
1c) lively, active (of man)
1d) reviving (of the springtime)
2) relatives (noun masculine)
3) life (abstract emphatic) (noun masculine)
3a) life
3b) sustenance, maintenance
4) living thing, animal (noun feminine)
4a) animal
4b) life
4c) appetite
4d) revival, renewal
5) community (noun feminine)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2421

man H120
???
'a^da^m
BDB Definition:
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H119

beast > H929
?????
behe^ma^h
BDB Definition:
1) beast, cattle, animal
1a) beasts (collective of all animals)
1b) cattle, livestock (of domestic animals)
1c) wild beasts
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Let's look at the use of white and also ruddy in the same verse:

Son 5:10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.

white > H6703 [which is used 4 times in OT as: clear, dry, plainly or white]
??
tsach
BDB Definition:
1) dazzling, glowing, clear, bright
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6705

ruddy > H122
???
'a^do^m
BDB Definition:
1) red, ruddy (of man, horse, heifer, garment, water, lentils)
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H119

It is very obvious that Christian Identity doesn't have a leg to stand on. The arguments, if applied the way they themselves apply them, overturn there own doctrine. Because some claim Adam means ruddy therefore means red faced and whites are the only ones with red faces---doesn't that also mean he could have the red face of a horse, heifer, garment, lentils or water? Since it's believed words are being defined and used incorrectly? And being 'white' also can mean clear, dry, plainly or white, dazzling, glowing or bright.

The reality, definition of a word depends on context, just as one finds in other languages. Twisting of the Scriptures is not new. Paul wrote:

2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Mary · 10-03-2011, 06:30 AM

***Vic*** · 10-03-2011, 12:00 PM

(10-03-2011 06:30 AM)Mary Wrote:

Thank you Mary, especially for the prayers. Icon_tea

I also meant to point out that the reason some Christian Identity like the idea of a local flood versus whole earth flood, is because of the race issue. If only the 'white race' was in the local area such as described by Ekklesia, then that means that Noah and his family were the whites to be saved, and the beasts, etc were the other 'races' saved with 2 each. It has to do with limiting then the 'human' population to that one specific area--hence no need for a worldwide flood.

I find the Christian Identity beliefs horrific and repulsive and totally contrary to Scripture. And there will be no further attempts allowed to promote it on this forum. While I believe it was important for people to understand the arguments, and how to refute them, despite whether Christian Identity adherents accept those refutations or not, I believe it's been pretty much addressed as necessary.

Those who are adherents to these beliefs in whatever variation, are more than welcome to consider the refutations and Scriptures within them, but further attempts to promote it will be stopped. Ekklesia may come back and attempt to promote it, as he has not been banned, suspended or moderated at this time, but as far as I am concerned the topic is closed to that type of interaction. After almost 150 posts with one adherent, we know that there is no acceptance of any of the refutations, but rather, the clear setting of the agenda to disseminate those beliefs.

In researching the issues, I discovered that Christian Identity adherents are being trained and encouraged to enter forums and such and enter into debate to disseminate their beliefs. That is precisely what Ekklesia did here, and as he did, in his first postings, he laid out the 'rules' for debating with him, always trying to control and direct the conversation, ignoring the Scriptural and factual refutations in favor of his canned responses. Let alone the forum rules agreed to. Racism by it's very definition is hate based--whether one thinks they feel actual hate or not. I think if one rationalises that 'other' races aren't actually human, are souless or similar, it removes the obvious need to hate. And I suppose that can be why someone can say they aren't a racist, which in reading CI forums is very clearly declared that they aren't racsit, while holding those beliefs.

Jesus came for all who would believe, and died for all our sins. And that is what is important to understand. The children's song of , Jesus loves the little children of the world, red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in His sight, in my mind was always meant to teach that race, color and heritage are inconsequential to the love of God. Crowd

God so loved the whole world...and we need to see others as God sees each of us.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

1 John 4:7-11 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

2-NEW-grouphug02

Ekklesia · 10-12-2011, 01:23 AM

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: If one does a search on the 'net about Christian Identity, whether just as a search term or with parameters about how governments view it and so on, invariably the following comes out:

--extremist--hate group
--racist
--white supremacist or similar
--sometimes violent or aggressive

While some cry foul over those descriptors, the reality is those are the hallmarks of Christian Identity. It has spawned the KKK, Posse Comatatus, Aryan Nations, Nazi-white power, Neo Nazi's, "patriot" groups, and other variations of white supremacy groups. It goes by the labels of Christian Identity, True Israel, Israel Identity, Anglo-Israel, British Israel---variations, Lost Tribes doctrine etc. It claims to be true Christianity while perverting and denying various Scriptures, while also claiming to fully believe all the Bible. Jesus said:

Back arguing the stawman Vic?

I'm not a racist, a white supremacist and everything I've said bears this out - but those are very emotive terms! So, because you are unable to show any of my words fit this claim, so you toss out these frightening words as another red-herring. You cannot make your point using logic or truth, so you use emotion instead. There is no need to cry foul over this since it is a decoy, a tangent. Nonetheless, argument employing even emotive strawmen still remain fallacies. This false logic does nothing to addresses my claims, nor do they make your point true, yet still you do it.

Even so, lets look at your argument here. If we do a search on the internet, will we find truth? Is that where we seek? I've argued that I'd rather stick with the bible since that's where I know truth resides - yet you'd prefer the internet and the opinion found there.

In making your point you've ignored what I've proven biblically, but now you justify your strawman position by citing search engine results and opinion? Thus you abandoned the bible (and truth) in favour of the popular worldly view found on the internet. Are you again appealing to the view of the population (fallacy ad-populatum)?

The number of people who hold a belief about something to be true, STILL does not make that belief true. Look at the number of people who wanted Christ crucified. To be a Christian mature in Christ, you are going to have to stop favouring the views of this world and popular opinion accepting instead Christ's plain words plainly (and all other scripture) - no matter how unpopular (and unworldly) - and whatever the search engines say.

If the bible says that Israel was, is, and always will be the chosen of God [Gal 6:16], a particular treasure out of all the peoples on earth [Deut 14:2], you either believe it or you don't. Believe the bible, not the search engines! If you profess to follow of Christ, you believe it. If you don't believe it, you're not a follower of Christ. If the bible says that God would forge the new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah [Jer 31:31][Heb 8:8], you might want to pause and wonder why you reject His claim. God's word is true isn't it? If you find yourself disbelieving the bible, that is a sign your theology is wrong!

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: While many Christian Identity use the terms, white race, caucasian, anglo Israel, european whites, british Israel, etc, what they most often mean is the Germanic, Scandinavian, British, 'aryan', 'anglo-saxon-nordic nations', comprise what they view as the ten lost tribes, the real Israel --which have never been lost. Christian Identity proponents who hedge over the words caucasian or white race or similar, are merely trying to distinguish their Identity beliefs as being somewhat better or above the racism and hate group persona portrayed by most, including government writings, and identification by hate group watch as such. Genesis 10:1-32 names most of the nations that developed from the three sons of Noah, but not all of them.

This is false, and another red-herring. I'm a Christian Identity adherent (to use Vic's label) but I use no such terminology, nor am I the bogey-man she describes. But Vic hopes beyond hope to provide false witness about my beliefs to discredit them, which is why she ignores what I say. This is false witness.

The bible makes it clear that from Israel's loins would come a nation (Judah) and company of nations (Joseph) [Gen 35:11]. The name "Israel" was bequeathed to Joseph (as the House of Israel), not to Judah [Gen 48:16] "and let my name be named on them.." and Joseph was specifically made a company of nations [Gen 48:4].

The bible also makes it clear that Israel was only a united kingdom under it's first four kings, splitting after Solomon died into its two Houses; Judah and Israel. Then Israel rebelled against Judah in [1 Kings 12:19]. Moreover, for the remainder of the bible the Jews were at war with the Israelites (for example in [2 Kings 16:6] the Jewish king Ahaz fought against the Israelite king Pekah and Syrian King Rezin). The bible never has them re-united. At best Vic can show the House of Judah making a sacrifice for all Israel (though the House of Israel was not present). More clearly the bible prophecies about the messiah ([Eze 37:5,14] accomplishing this reunification in [Eze 37:11,15,16,19,20-22]. However, this reunification still had not yet been accomplished by [Act 1:6] as anyone who reads [Acts 1:6] can see.

But why discuss any of this? Why read the bible when we can search the net and avoid talking about biblical things? Why defend truth when popular opinion will suffice? Why engage in debate when when we can prop up strawmen? Vic - you cannot disprove Christian Identity because you do not it engage it on its own terms. You avoid its terms because they are biblical.

Though Vic's arguments lack biblical awareness, it is not fiction that the ten tribes were taken away by Assyria and never returned [2 Kings 15:19,20][2 Kings 18:10,11][1 Chron 5:26][Isa 9:1,2][Hos 8:8,9][2 Kings 17:4-6,18-23] thus fulfilling the curses of [Lev 26:32,33][Deut 28:36,64][Deut 29:27-28]. Notice where the Pharisees thought Jesus was going in [John 7:35]. Those dispersed were specifically mentioned in [1 Peter 1:1] and [James 1:1]. Of course, there are also those verses Vic disbelieves outright or spiritualizes [Matt 10:6][Matt 15:24]. Notice that Jesus's command is difficult to do, if he's speaking figuratively.

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: Identity adherents believe they are the only descendants of Adam, and the only chosen descendants of Abraham, hence all of Israel. All other 'nonwhite' races are viewed as either: soulless, the beasts of the field mentioned in Genesis 1:24, mud people, serpent seed, single line serpent seed, etc. Most view Jews as of Satan, or variations of different lineage-not Israel, and definitely not God's chosen people, but rather enemies to be hated. As are the blacks and other races from the "lesser" or prior races. We know that someone is not of Christ if they hate others, including those who proclaim Jesus Christ in true belief, both Jews and Gentiles. To reject or hate someone because of race, is contrary to the love we are called to.

Here, Vic presents us with two more fallacies; a hasty generalization, and a stawman to boot. In my first post I said I would represent Christian Identity. In doing so I've refuted doctrines cited above in answering Vics questions, but still Vic makes these false claims. You can do that when you ignore truth.

The problem is, that once we start arguing from the bible, we must either believe it, or reveal the limit of our disbelief. This is why Vic avoids the biblical basis for Christian Identity / British Israel, and instead props up her stawman position. It is a frightening thought to explore, I suspect, that Christian Identity / British Israelites may actually be bible believing, Christ loving, worshipers of the one true and faithful God. It is much more comfortable to believe they are all red-neck rascists who espouse dual-seedline theory (even if that isn't true).

Except that anyone reading this thread can see which one of us is employing un-biblical terminology and avoiding the bible, and which one isn't. Fallacies are simply another way to lie. This suggests that what is at the heart of arguments built upon fallacies is a disdain for truth.

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: Many believe, and this was a foundational teaching of the movement, that Jesus was not a Jew of the tribe of Judah but an Aryan of the ten lost tribes of Israel and an ancestor of the present British, Germanic and Scandinavian people. This while claiming to believe the whole bible. But we know the Bible says this:

Though I believe Jesus was the lion of the tribe of Judah, son of God and son of man, David's son, and the messiah, and said so many times - all the professions in the world to love Christ mean nothing Vic if you refuse to believe his words.

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: Ekklesia's Christian Identity mantra about Christ's statement that He "was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" [Matt. 15:24] is not a reference whatsoever to tribes that had physically disappeared and were missing, but to people who were lost in sin.

My mantra is believe the bible, plainly, before all else; cover to cover. Vic, you don't know my mantra because you ignore it and arguing against the will-o-wisp argument you would like me to have - as you are doing here.

But if we are to believe as you believe - we are not to believe Jesus' plain words, plainly. We are to disbelieve them, or explain them away as figurative. (If we do this, all of the bible is figurative, not literal. This shows you that Vic would prefer a bible that is not literal). We must spiritualize his words. He sent his disciples only to a figurative 'lost sheep' (a metaphor to be taken any way we like). We are to ignore the Messianic promises to Israel in the rest of the entire OT. We are to ignore the scripture Jesus Himself quoted, from which His words were based, which promises the flock Israel its shepherd and redeemer. We are to believe not what Jesus said clearly, but instead the meaning Vic, and popular opinion, imparts to them. I'm sorry Vic, but God is without shade or variation and so is His word. Only the bible interprets the bible. Here are more verses for you to disbelieve:

About the House of Israel [KJV 1 Kings 22:17] says "I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd"

About the House of Israel [KJV 2 Chron 18:16] says "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd."

[KJV Jer 50:17] says "Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away"

The Messianic prophecy [Mic 2:12] says "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of you; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

The Ezekiel prophecy against false prophets says "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus says the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?" [Eze 34:2]

Another messianic prophecy [Eze 34:12] clearly identifying Christ and His flock saying "As a shepherd seeks out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day."

[Eze 36:37] says "Thus says the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock."

[Jer 13:17] calls Israel who has been taken captive "... the LORD's flock"

There are more, but would you believe them either?

In every case - Israel is Christ's flock, and in every case they've been scattered, needing a shepherd to find them. Only the bible interprets the bible, and frankly your interpretation is false.

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: If they had disappeared and were physically lost, being in Jerusalem would not have found them. As had been explained many times, earlier, Jesus had sent His twelve disciples "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:6), and the disciples did not need to search for the people they were sent to speak to. They were told to go to them and not the Gentiles, to begin with.

And this is your mantra Vic (which is also a lie). To believe it, one needs to disbelieve everything else in the bible. Read [John 16:32]. Now read [Matt 26:31] which says "Then says Jesus unto them, All you shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad." quoting the prophecy about Israel found in [Zech 13:7].

Jesus predicts that the shepherds he trained would be scattered - and knowledge of the bible shows this to be true! Re-read the letters that were written to the scattered Israel [1 Peter 1:1][1 James] etc. Jesus commanded his disciples to go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel because he knew they were still scattered and the House of Judah who had returned to Jerusalem were to be so. Why did the Pharisees ask "will he go among the dispersed?" There is no way Jesus was being figurative or spiritual - but it certainly serves the devil's purpose if we cannot believe Jesus' words at face value.

(10-02-2011 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: Ezra led the exiled tribes---with CI claiming that ten tribes never returned--upon returning to the land, in sacrifices on behalf of all Israel, which included all 12 tribes.

Again more false teaching Vic. All sacrifices given, were always for all Israel, whether or not they were physically present ("a lamb for a house" as Exodus says). Only the House of Judah went to Babylon, only Judah returned. [Ezra 1:5] says clearly "Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem."

Who was the House of Judah? (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi!)
Where was the House of Judah? (Jerusalem and southward!).

Incidentally and as an added witness, even the secular historians make the claim that only Judah returned with Ezra. There testimony outside of the bible, that agrees with the bible is Josephus.

On this site, you purport to engage in ministry, and indeed you post much scripture - you there is very little evidence you understand what you post or the bible. You purport to engage those who come here, but you attribute to them, the position you argue against. It seems like you've drunk the wine of babylon and been made drunk, believing that God has abandoned his people in favour of confusion. You appear to disbelieve much of the bible, particularly Christ's words (as well as OT prophets). The content of your posts seem to be unaware of much of the old testament and makes God's promises to Israel, false.

Judging from how this debate went, when you confront beliefs you disagree with, you don't seem to answer the arguments of your opponents. It's hard to see how you're contending for the faith. It's especially hard, when you won't even talk biblical things, and instead talk about other things. You argue imaginary arguments using fallacious logic, and yet profess to value true. It's hard to see how this is true.

Followers of Christ must speak the truth, and not use flawed reason. You exchange the clear but difficult teaching of the bible for the internet, and popular opinion. You cite the bible in abundance but cannot seem to show you understand it's meaning.

Vic, I will pray (along with Mary) for you, that you stop stretching your belief over what the bible says.

***Vic*** · 10-15-2011, 01:47 PM

Well Ekklesia, you are predictable at least. You don't like what is said so it becomes a strawman, a moot argument, or as in the past, fully ignored or treated like some personal vendetta. THis was only a debate in your mind, incidently. We discuss things here and look to prove all things Scripturally and factually. There's a difference.

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I hope you feel better after your rant, rage and many false accusations and making it personal against me. Wasn't it you that was constantly going on about not making the discussion personal? You take doctrine discussed as being all about you, when I clearly stated the thread was about Christian Identity and British Israel doctrine. You were given incredible opportunity to validate which beliefs you held. You chose to limit what you want people to know about your beliefs. That was your choice.

Why? because you don't like what is said and known concerning Christian Identity beliefs as stated by Christian Identity adherents. It's actually quite ludicrous. I don't care--as I have already stated--what little variations of belief you want people to follow after you for, while claiming your beliefs are so much better and different than other Christian Identity adherents' doctrine. You have declared Christian identity to be the answer---when it is clearly not.

Rose's initial response concerning your doctrine about the church and Israel> "I really do wonder how one cannot distinguish between the Church and Israel but maybe the answer lies in that as you said, not all of us use the same terms with the same meanings. According to the Bible ,Israel are Jacob's descendants.The Church would be believers in Jesus and His New Covenant.Therefore, even though we may have overlap, the two are not one and the same."

The problem is--you don't believe anyone but Israel -Jacob's descendants --can be the church or believe or belong to Jesus Christ. That's why you have to claim to be Israel and Jewish, even though you aren't. That's why all the repetitive hammering on the 'lost sheep of Israel'. If only that was the only phrase from the only verse in all of Scripture that needs to be applied you would have part of a leg to stand on. However, there's so much more as has been repeatedly shown to you.

You also stated, "I've shown that belief in Christian Identity/British Israelism is not only rational, but is not born in ignorance, or devoid of faith."

You need to do some research on the history of Christian Identity and British Israelism and Lost Tribes. You also said that you take your beliefs always from the Scripture. Except the doctrine and 'name' Christian Identity and British Israelism are not found in the Scriptures. The belief system and doctrine are specifically manmade.

Throughout this thread when your statements have been refuted, you have attempted the 'it's a strawman', false, personal attack, eisigesis, been condescending, and that's not the real Christian Identity/British Israel beliefs---despite being cited from CI websites or other sources--and despite your claim of foul--they are real Identity proponents and openly so with their doctrine; you've changed Biblical word meanings, claim to believe the Bible but don't, because according to you it's been translated incorrectly because of theological agenda and Christian Identity--aka your Christian Identity has the true meanings and so on. Of course you do quote CS Lewis for some of your understanding, and read JH Allen which you said was a good read, etc. Which means you don't go 'just' by the Bible, as you claim, and which is obvious by your stake and claim on Christian Identity and British Israel beliefs.

Your attitude is that you have presented perfect arguments which 'prove' all you have to say and everyone else just doesn't get the truth like you do. Might I be so bold as to say, thankfully, we don't embrace what you do. You distort and change the Scriptures and the gospel of Jesus Christ to make them attempt to fit what you want them to say.

You have said I have not refuted your beliefs. Yet I have.
Did you respond to my refutation in many posts on the 'word' issues that you had brought up? No.
Did you respond to my refutation concerning Cornelius? No.
Did you respond to my refutation concerning roman citizenship, Paul and Cornelius and the Roman issue, gentile issue? No.
Did you refute the doctrinal issues in my Christian Identity/British Israel articles? No. and those were beliefs you said you held right from your first post.
Did you refute the Christian Identity/British Israel FAQS --which were part of my articles and information? No.
Did you acknowledge my statements concerning Israel's role in Scripture? NO, yet you claim you were never answered by me and attribute false statements concerning Israel to me. Convenient to say, but not really true.

Did I need to address what Rose and Mary so clearly addressed repeatedly to you? No, but according to you I should have. When I have, you call it false or a strawman or attack etc. You play your game, and it comes up, you don't want to answer anything but what fits in your dissemination of very limited particular Christian Identity doctrine. You aren't the first nor the last to say that your doctrine is the correct doctrine of all the other CI/BI/ Two House, etc doctrine out there. I have clearly stated there are variations depending on group. That you want to sanitise yours as different than all the 'negative' from all the other CI doctrine is quite absurd actually.

If you think Christian Identity is so wrong, ---don't claim it holds the answers. As you have done.

I stated that there would be no more dissemination of Christian Identity doctrine by you on this forum. Your continual dismissal of admin decisions and forum rules is not only rude but unnecessary. If you want to promote Christian Identity, my suggestion would be to go to other CI/BI forums. And if you want the expense of your own website or forum where you can dictate how people can dialogue with and control the debate you wish to have with your own pet rules, as you have presented and tried to impose here, then by all means please go for it. You are done here promoting what is clearly error. That you cannot see that is sad. But you have chosen to totally ignore and dismiss all refutations. That was your choice.

I hope at some point you will be able to comprehend the Scriptural refutations that have been given to you and understanding will awaken in you concerning the Truth of the Scriptures, the New Covenant, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

As far as you praying for me Ekklesia, alongside Mary. I don't think so. You see, prayer with a sincere heart out of love for others is different than what you have just shown and declared in this post towards me, and in fact in many prior posts towards me.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.