Christian Identity & British Israelism and the varied doctrine

[Ekklesia]

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Again this depends on what you mean by a new congregation and what you also mean by rebuilding.
Since His ministry was primarily(though not exclusively) to the House of Israel whilst on earth and prior to His crucifixion we could agree that the first congregation of christians was taken largely out of the old congregations of Israel.

I'm not the one imposing constraints here, Jesus is. I'm taking His words at face value, [Matt 15:24] "He answered, 'I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'" (which is exactly what was prophesied in [Jer 31:31] (though I know many don't take his word at face value - I read plainly that which is plain).

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  I say largely though because although the early church/"congregation" was Israelite even when Christ was alive many gentiles sought Him and were healed and believed in Him.

What do mean by gentiles? The Greek word which gets translated into English as 'gentiles' was the Greek word ἔθνος (ethnos G1484) which meant 'nations' in Greek. The Greek word did not mean 'non-Israelite', if that's how you're using it, rather it meant nations which never applies to individuals.

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Some examples include the syrophoenician woman ..

You're referring to [Mark 7:26] which has in English the singular word 'gentile' except that Greek word used there was Ἑλληνίς (Hellēnis G1674) which means Greek, and nothing more.

How do you know my assertions are correct? It is from the Greek word Hellēnis (which meant Greek) that we get the English word Hellenistic which means Greek. Also, I'm providing you with the Strongs reference so you can verify my assertions.

The word that gets translated as 'gentile', like many others, has ignored the Greek meaning in translation. Rose, I'm making a case that our theology arises from our use of the English language, and I'm questioning whether or not the English says the same as the Greek. That is kind of an important detail, given that God's word should be read as it was intended, and not as man intends.

I would add to this that we are talking the Kingdom of God, nations, not individuals. All of God's covenants were about peoples, kin-groups, not individuals (though they were made with individuals).

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Christ's mission on earth was primarily to Israel since it was Israel who was the heir of God's promises made to Abraham,Isaac and Jacob plus their descendants.However in the prophets God had also made clear that salvation would also come to the Gentiles.Even in the OT Gentiles or the nations had not been forgotten by God and there are instances where we see this.In Jonah for example,where Jonah was sent to the Assyrians as a prophet.

Except that God, in his concern for the Assyrians, did not forge a covenant with them as he did with Israel. Incidentally, in this case, Jonah's efforts resulted in God staying his wrath for a while. The Assyrians did end up sliding back into their practices and eventually felt God's wrath.

[Hebrews 11] says that the righteousness of God's faithful servants (such as Abel, Abraham, Noah and yes, Jonah too) convicts the world. Part of why Israel is to be a light unto the world is so that those who reject God are convicted by the actions of the faithful.

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Israel was a light to the nations and they were meant to give testimony of what it was like to be in a relationship with the true God.

Yes. Israel indeed BECAUSE they were God's covenant nation.

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  It makes total sense that Christ's ministry was to have been primarily to Israel .One of Christ's missions was to regather Israel and save the people lost in their sins and incurring all the curses that were a result of them breaking the Covenant of Sinai.

It may make sense from 'mans' thinking, but is it consistent with what the bible says? I say "No" and am willing to show it, biblically.

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  From the Scriptures we know that on Christ's death the wall of partition between jew and gentile was broken down and it seems it is then that the Old Covenant is laid to rest and the New ushered in.

You recognize that a veil existed that separated the House of Judah from the House of Israel? How do you know that that veil which was torn was not the one separating those two IAW [Eze 37:15-18]?

(06-27-2011 05:05 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  All those verses talk about God dispersing or scattering His people but I'm not sure why you ask me if I can prove biblically that God gave up on those people and where you are going with that.I didn't say that God gave up on those people however at the time of Christ those people that comprised the "congregation" at that time were long dead so I don't get the point.

This is a good question.

If God forged an eternal covenant with Abraham and his descendants, what makes you think the covenant ended when that generation died? Did the covenant end when Abraham died? Did it end when Moses did? If it is 'eternal' it must be eternal.

Let me ask a few additional questions in return; consider this God had this eternal covenant with his people Israel, wouldn't it be also reflected in his new covenant? They were his bride, his sheepfold, his people. Is God not committing adultery if he sets aside his wife (Israel) and marries another?

Your dilemma is this - if God's covenant is with Israel (which the bible says it is), you wonder how you fit into this scheme (or less personal, how Christians do)

You have one of two choices. You can reject (disbelieve) what the bible says about God's covenant with Israel (the Kingdom of God), and find some other way the covenant includes you through some other theology (constructed from bad translation)
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... or you can believe the bible plainly and conclude, against all other logic and theology of man, and assume God is true and everyman a liar, that you are an Israelite.

Jesus said [John 10:27] "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Who does the bible say were His sheep? [Jer 50:6] was speaking of the House of Israel. [Eze 34:8,10-12,15].

If that's too subtle, try [Mic 2:12] which says "I will surely, assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel; I will set them together like sheep in a fold, like a flock in its pasture, a noisy multitude of men." (Isn't that just [Matt 10:6] and [Matt 15:24] all over again?)