RE: Moved from Intro thread: Christian Identity & British Israelism
(07-03-2011 11:23 PM)Ekklesia Wrote:
(07-03-2011 09:04 PM)Mary Wrote: Before we look at Mark chapter 7 let us look at chapter 6. I'm sure you will be willing to do that as you have said it is important to look at the context, and you have also said Scripture interprets scripture.
Ok - fair enough.
(07-03-2011 09:04 PM)Mary Wrote: So in chapter 6 starting from the beginning, where do we find Jesus? In His own country. He taught in the synogogue. I understand that to mean that He was not teaching gentiles, or if you prefer, people from other nations. Israelites, Like Him.
The point is, Jesus is preaching /teaching in the synogogue. People who were not believers in God and under Mosaic law would not be in the synogogue to listen to Him.
Just like before, not all Israelites 'listen' and 'obey' their God. Just because one is an Israelite, doesn't mean one's heart is automatically circumcised (read Korah's rebellion against Moses for example in [Numbers 16]).
I think that point is easily understood, and is not the main thrust of this discussion.
This is where faith comes in. Likewise, when God decided to punish the House of Israel, or the House of Judah, by the sword, there was still faithful spared [Jer 38:17]. This means that nothing is ever absolute (save perhaps for the power of Christ's blood), and faith always determines one's relationship to the covenant.
I would like you please to clarify this statement, as I find it confusing. Do you mean faith comes in when God punishes the people?
What does "faith determines one's relationship to the covenant mean?"
(07-03-2011 09:04 PM)Mary Wrote: The result of His teaching ? They, His own people, were offended by him, and rejected Him. Jesus 'marvelled' at their unbelief, and he 'could do no mighty work there, except to heal a few sick people. Before we move on, Ekklesia, how would you understand Mark chapter 6 verses 1 -6?
I would first point out, that not everyone in Jesus' country were Israelites. From [2 Kings 17:23-26] we know that most of the people in the former region of the 'House of Israel' were brought in from Assyria.
From the same verse we know that they specifically asked to convert to Judaism because they realized that God had sent lions amongst them and was angry with them.
Are you saying that everyone living in Jesus's country and the surrounding areas, at the time of Jesus' ministry was either Jewish by birth, or had converted to Judaism?
We also know from Esther, Obadiah, and from Josephus, that many Jews, including the Jewish King Herod, were not Israelites at all (or from the House of Judah). The Jewish King Herod, and his descendant line of kings, like many others, was a convert from Edom's forced conversion >>>>>>[links deleted as per forum rules---newbies cannot post links >>>Vic]>>>>>John Hyrcanus).
So you ask how do I take verses 1-6.
The question was more, what do you make of these verses, rather than how you take them.
I have no trouble believing the crowd in Nazareth did not respond to Jesus as messiah
This was not the crowd in Nazareth.This was the people of Israel, who lived under the Mosaic Law, who had the benefit of the word of God through the prophets. But I agree, it is not difficult to believe, they had rejected and disobeyed God countless times.
. Did faith fall on ethnic lines? I'm not sure, it's hard to say,
Is it? This question is either the crux of your whole argument, or it is where it will begin to unravel. I think perhaps we should come back to this at a later stage, but for now continue to go through Mark 6 and 7, and also Matthew 15.
but Jesus did say "My sheep hear my voice" [John 10:27].
Would that then mean that anyone who did not "hear his voice" is not 'his sheep"?
Nazareth is much further inland towards Samaria, south-west of the sea of Galilee. Around the Sea of Galilee, however, there were many Benjaminites. Clearly, some did respond to Jesus, though, including those he picked up on the shores of Galilee. All of his disciples were Benjaminites save one, who was from Judah. (Paul also was a Benjaminite but disbelieved until he met Christ for himself).
(This Benjaminite connection is for a curious reason too; Moses final prophecy all-but predicted that the Lord would dwell among Benjaminites [Deut 33:12]).
(07-03-2011 09:04 PM)Mary Wrote: I apologise, I will need to go through these verses slowly due to health reasons. I am not able presently to make long posts.
I'm sorry to hear that Mary. Do you welcome prayers?
I am prayed for by many people, thank you. I am just in a rest and recovery phase.
(07-03-2011 09:04 PM)Mary Wrote: Also, I'm not sure what your point is about the number of verses in the Bible, and that some people dismiss the OT. What is the relevance of this at this point in the discusssion?
That was for perspective. The OT is nearly 3/4 of the bible, and prophecy is 1/3. Most people don't think about it, but assume the OT is 1/2 and prophecy is practically nothing. My point was to show that God thought enough about the old covenant to make it most of the bible; and for prophecy to be 1/3, that must meet we should think about it, at least a bit.
(07-03-2011 10:45 PM)Mary Wrote: Furthermore, I'm a little confused about whether you mean John 3 16 is a theological non essential, or whether the ecclesia issue is a non essential?
Oh no! The verse [John 3:16] is ABSOLUTELY essential (Christ's blood is everything!). It's most of the other stuff we've argued, understanding prophecy, etc, that is not essential for salvation.
Finally, for the sake of being clear, you can read 'doctrine' where I type 'theology'. Perhaps I should be more clear on those two words.
Mark 6:6 -9
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
Who would have been living in the villages?
Mark 6: 10 - 11
And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
For whom was that warning meant?
Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."