Christian Identity & British Israelism and the varied doctrine
09-09-2011, 02:53 AM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2011 03:14 PM by Vic.)
RE: Moved from Intro thread: Christian Identity & British Israelism
.... from your perspective. I have other ideas about what is valid and invalid Christian Identity and British Israel doctrine. Some of the political or theological doctrine you portray as British Israel / Christian Identity is hardly main-stream. So some of your questions are fallacious as sweeping generalizations. Even so, I appreciate your effort to re-engage with a series of questions and I will answer them all as best I can. In answering you, I will be answering your questions (about what I believe), biblically, or historically when necessary.
Needless-to-say, if you would like me to comment specifically on particular British-Israelite (Identity Christian) authors, or their quotes, quote them, and I tell if you they are being biblical, historical, or not - if I can. I promise the same of addressing non-British Israel authors also.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Is there Scriptural support for the following beliefs? If someone decides to answer one or more , please include the statement with the answer and show Scripturally your belief. Please Break your responses into smaller posts if answering several questions. Thank you.:
The expression "White Race" is not found in the bible (and I don't know who you consider 'white'). However the bible is clear on who God choose to work his purpose. Speaking to Israel, God says:
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. [Deut 14:12]
And the LORD has declared today that you are a people for his treasured possession, as he has promised you, and that you are to keep all his commandments [Deut 26:18]
Therefore God chose to work His purpose through the nation Israel.
The bible does not mention "Caucasians". Therefore this is clearly not a biblical question, and I don't believe the bible addresses this, nor will I speculate.
Well again, no bible I reference mentions "Caucasians", so this is another unbiblical question. Never-the-less I will attempt an answer based upon what the bible says about salvation:
Salvation belongs to the LORD [Psa 3:8]
David also said salvation belonged to the Lord:
Show us your steadfast love, O LORD, and grant us YOUR salvation. [Psa 85:7]
It is good that one should wait quietly for the salvation of the LORD. [Lam 3:26]
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. [Luke 19:9] since clearly Jesus was LORD and had come.
To answer your question then, in every case salvation belongs to the LORD. Thus, those who the LORD chooses to be saved, will be saved; which is the same as answering your question by quoting Romans: I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. [Rom 9:15]
If you're asking me to say exactly who will be saved, only God knows.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Did Jesus pay for the sins of the House of Israel and House of Judah only, and salvation comes through redemption and race?
You are asking two questions; the first question is about Jesus; and the second about redemption (and race). I'll answer it two parts then.
First, whose sins did Jesus pay for? [Gal 3:13] says he died for all those cursed under the law. [Gal 4:5] says the same thing, saying that he came to redeem those under the law so that they may receive adoption as sons. [Hebrews 10:14] makes it clear that he did this by providing Himself as the perfect sacrifice in substitution for what had previously been an imperfect offering.
Second, you are asking if salvation comes through redemption and race. Salvation comes entirely through redemption that is in Christ Jesus [Rom 3:24]. In other words, it is the blood of Christ Jesus that delivers people from the curse of the law, and NOT the blood they share with a common ancestor. The business of providing salvation is entirely a function of the bridegroom (Jesus).
Having said that, the fact you ask about race here, makes me wonder if you don't understand the biblical difference between the role of the bride (God's people) and the bridegroom (Jesus). We've already spoken of the bridegroom and salvation, so lets now speak of the bride. So I don't get accused of constructing false doctrine, or of not being clear, I'll quote the bible directly and let it speak for itself (not my word's but God's):
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen [Rom 9:4-5]
If you're specifically asking me, what I believe about those who are Christ's, this is what I believe (exactly):
If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. [Gal 3:29]
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Are white Europeans the literal and true descendents of the Israelites through the ten tribes which were taken into captivity in Assyria?
This is a historical question of course, not a biblical one; but yes, I believe there is historical evidence that shows this. Likewise, I believe there is sufficient historical evidence that calls into question the ethnic identity biblically of modern 'Israel', just as there is sufficient biblical evidence to suggest there were non-Israelite Jews during the time of Jesus.
Of course not! Jacob and Esau were twin brothers who shared both mother and father, genetically similar.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Is there a pre-Adamite race of lesser races--non caucasians? Some believe the 'beasts of the field' meant non-caucasian races as mentioned in Genesis 1:25, Jonah 3:8?
Are you suggesting in your questioning, that this rather obtuse and obscure 'belief' is core Christian Identity or British Israel doctrine? It sounds to me to be that two-seed line doctrine you keep raising. It is a fallacy to suggest that because some may hold a particular view, all do. I'm sure there are people who continue to believe the earth is flat. I know there are main stream Christian's (such as Rob Bell) who believe no one will go to hell, yet I wouldn't think to ask you to account for those beliefs.
If you want to know what I believe, I believe that this is an absolutely ridiculous question (sorry Vic). I cannot possibly answer biblically, or historically, about what "some believe"?
Biblically, anyone descended from Noah would be descended from Adam since Noah was descended from Adam. Therefore, for there to be non-Adamic races (so-to-speak), you would have to point out races NOT descended from Noah.
This question cannot be answered biblically or historically (or even seriously). IMO, if you were even asking a serious question, I would think you would have to start with Noah and trace descent from there to answer questions about 'race'.
No bible, as far as I can tell, denotes "Caucasians". In fact, the word "Caucasian" itself has only been used since 1795 when a German anthropologist, Johann Blumenbach, first made it's use popular. So I'd have to say that question is meaningless; something akin to asking if there is scriptural support for aliens.
The bible says:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." [Gen 1:27]
I suspect most British-Israelites, and Identity Christian's believe that to be true, but I cannot be certain.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Was Eve seduced by Satan--the snake--and produced Cain, while with Adam, produced Abel? This dual seedline or serpent seed or two seedline belief means that Cain was the progenitor of the Jews in later matings with the non-Adamic races. Is there Scripture to support this?
There is scripture to support Satan--the snake-- seduced Eve [Gen 3:13]. There is NO scriptural evidence this 'seduction' was sexual, or produced offspring. Likewise, scripturally extrapolating lineage from Jewish descent to Cain, not only does biblical text violence, but shows linguistic ignorance (יהודי Yĕhuwdiy H3064 was a word that derived in Babylon, from a diminutive form of "Judah" (יהודה Yĕhuwdah H3063)
This is a historical question. Of course, you would have to specify what you mean by 'white' since that's neither a biblical, historical nor ethnic term. You presuppose others know exactly what you mean by it. Even so, for the sake of argument I'll re-phrase it:
Can it be shown historically that a large number people who inhabit Europe today have descended from the House of Israel?
I believe the answer is yes - it can be shown historically that most Europeans descend from the House of Israel (whether or not this is a popular notion).
Does that mean they are automatically God's chosen people? No. The bible makes it clear that without faith and obedience, people are separated from God. This means that all those who reject Jesus as Lord and master, are considered 'uncircumcised' (including those Jews who reject Him).
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Are the White Europeans or Caucasians God's chosen people according to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? And the early white European tribes were really the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and therefore the rightful heirs to God's promises?
Israel was God's chosen to be God's people, recipient of the promises, covenants etc. Biblically, it can be shown that Israel are the rightful heirs to God's promises. So the the question you ask about early European tribes being Israelite tribes is a historical one; Can the location of the House of Israel be shown historically?. I believe - yes.
Clearly, IF the early European tribes that hailed from Assyria, and filtered through Greece and Rome, were indeed the House of Israel, AND had faith, than yes, they are entitled to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (through faith), but only if they can be shown to be Israel. Everyone who rejects God (Israelite or not) are strangers to God and cut off because of disbelief.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Are modern Jews not Israelites nor Hebrews but are Turco-Mongolian or Khazars or descendents of Esau-Edom [Genesis 25:29–34]
Another historical question merits a historical answer: Many modern Jews are of Khazar descent, but likely not all. It is significant that the Khazar's empire of eastern Europe adopted Judaism en-masse. Even so, the origin of the Khazars can neither be shown to be Israelites, nor Edomites, convincingly. There is some ancient linguistic evidence Esau ended up in Russia (Esau/Esauv/Esov/Esoviet/Soviet), but that does not automatically indite the Khazars.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Are white Europeans the true descendants of the Biblical Jacob, and therefore they are the true Israel?
You ask about 'white Europeans' as though there is some type of common agreement as to what constitutes 'white Europeans'. If you are asking if the House of Israel likely ended up in Europe, the historical answer to that question is probably, yes - it can be shown.
This is speculative. I doubt this can be shown given that Edomites descended from Isaac, and Judah from Israel. The Canaanites where not related at all.
Yes, there are Jews who descend from the House of Judah so also the tribe. However, there are likely few Jews (or practically none) who descend from the House of Israel. This is subject to debate of course, and is speculative.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Do Jews make up the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with the British and other related Northern European peoples making up the remainder tribes of Israel? This is a form of British Israel doctrine which is different than Christian Identity.
This question indeed reflects some British Israel doctrine that differs from Christian Identity. I would say this: British Israel doctrine, though it recognises Israel's migration into Europe, is generally too tidy, and too Brit-o-centric. Though some Jews were indeed from Judah and Benjamin, it cannot be argued that all Jews are, since clearly many Jews were Edomites who had been forcibly converted. Or there are some other people who had converted later in history, such as the Khazars (Connie Chung, for example, is a Jew who is clearly not an Israelite, having converted).
Likewise, if the early European tribes are tracked historically, and are indeed the House of Israel, than it cannot be argued that the House of Israel exists today ONLY in Northern Europe, since many were dispersed throughout the Greek and Roman Empires, and some did not migrate further.
This question doesn't defines British-Israelite / Identity Christian doctrine, nor even main-stream Christian doctrine. It is an open debate. There are good arguments (linguistic/geological/biblical) for suggesting Noah's flood could have been either.
If you're asking me for my opinion, please don't hold others accountable for what I say. Here goes briefly:
I believe the flood took place >>>>>>[links deleted as per forum rules---newbies cannot post links >>>Vic]>>>>>here, in the world's largest natural basin.
I've spent time (recently) in Afghanistan, Hindu Kush (Cush), where the Gihon river still runs. The world's oldest Lapis Luze mines are there, and the Tarim Basin to the east is the world's natural basin with evidence of both flooding that affected the salinity of the Mediterranean and of being the source of Chinese flood myths. It all just fits. If I bet - I'd put my chips on the Pamir Plateau as Eden with Tarim Basin as locale of flood.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Is racial separation, whites versus other groups, part of belonging to Jesus Christ?
Christ asks his followers to separate themselves from the sinfulness of the world, but not from the world. Accordingly, a follower of Christ, as salt and light, is expected to tolerate others as though native [Lev 19:34], but not their sinfulness [Exo 12:49][Lev 17:8], or indeed any.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Are the modern Jews genetically compelled by their Edomite? ancestry to carry on a conspiracy against the Adamic or white seedline and have control over much of the earth because of their illegitimate claim as God's chosen people?
Vic, you'll have to find someone who believes dual-seedline to answer this one. Ideas such as this do not represent main-stream British Israel or Christian Identity belief.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: When did Christian Identity first form as a denomination/belief system?
No idea (if it even did at all). But whenever it came about has no bearing on the truth or falsity of its belief system. Whether something is believed to be true or not, or how long it has been believed to be true plays no part what-so-ever in establishing its truth.
(09-03-2011 02:42 PM)Vic Wrote: Are those who don't agree with Christian Identity beliefs anti-semites?
No idea how to answer this philosophical question. I'm not sure how you mean 'anti-semites'. I personally think it's a meaningless term, but you apparently presuppose it has meaning.
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