Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?

[Vic]

(03-31-2011 11:06 AM)sari83 Wrote:  Thanks, Vic.

That's seems to be a very informative article. Was the author saying that the person listed as Janna (KJV) in Luke's geneology is Joanna, or did I misread that? I think Luke 3:17 may be a misreference in sec. 3 paragraph 11 of the article.

I followed the link at the end of the article, but it says "page not found." However, I did found it through a google search.

Overall, I think it makes sense to establish Christ's lineage through David's son Nathan. It's part of the prophecy in Zech 12:12: And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; (KJV)

Was Solomon's line was cursed forever through Jeconiah? (Jeremiah 22:24, 22:30) Or was the curse was reversed through Zerubabbel. (Haggai 2:23)

Hi Sarah,

I missed the l on the html for that link. It works now.

It looks like he meant Luke 3:27, not Luke 3:17 in that paragraph.

Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

There's a Janna mentioned in verse 24 and a Joanna in v 27, so not sure what you are meaning.

If you look at his chart in the first link, which shows both matthew and luke geneologies, Joanna is listed as no 59 and Janna no 71.

Quote:The numbers which appear against the names in the Tabulation represent the two different systems of accounting adopted by Matthew, on the left side, and Luke, on the right. In Matthew, David appears as the 14th name from Abraham: in Luke David is the 34th name from Adam. The red line represents the blood line connection: the yellow line represents the carrying of title to the throne of David.

David had two sons who figure as heads of the two branches of the family as indicated in Matthew and Luke, namely, Solomon and Nathan. In Matthew's genealogy Solomon becomes No. 1 in the second group of 14 names: and in Luke's genealogy Nathan becomes No. 35 on the other branch line.

From Solomon we move down to Joram, No. 6. Joram married Athaliah, the wicked daughter of a wicked father and mother (Ahab and Jezebel). As a consequence of this evil man and his wife, his seed was cursed for four generations in accordance with the reference made in Exodus 20:5. Thus Matthew, who probably follows the Temple records faithfully in his list, omits the next three names (Ahaziah, Joash, and Amaziah) from his genealogy. There is little doubt that these Temple records had, by divine providence, removed these three generations from the register, so that Ozias (No. 7) appears as though he were the son of Joram, No. 6, in the accounting of Matthew 1:8. We know from 1 Chronicles 3:11 and 12 that in the original court records, these three missing names were written down. In this court record, Ozias (No. 7) is given an alternative name Azariah (1 Chron. 3:12), and elsewhere he is also called Uzziah (Isa. 6:1). These are merely variants of the same name.

[sari83]

Oh, I see the article states that because Jeconiah's curse was specific to his sons never to prosper or rule, the lineage continues through his daughters.

Jer 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
(KJV)

The article gives an explanation for who Heli is, but I also was looking for a possible link for the name Janna (Yanai) in Luke 3:24.

[sari83]

Sheep Wrecked:
You said God's Word always took the forefront, yet you don't believe it to be true.

Sari83:
I was referring to growing up as a Christian, not my adult years.

Sheep Wrecked:
This is what you wrote, referring to it again:

Sari83:
"We stayed together for years and continued in our beliefs, though not without imperfection. We were married and spent our newlywed years studying the bible, and in daily prayer and meditation. We also picked up a Strong's Concordance to help further our studies. "

Sheep Wrecked:
So you were not an adult when you were married and had children?

Sari83 (update):
Actually I was married in my late teens. We were married for a few years before we had children. I was considering my adult years to be 21 and older. I don't see what I wrote here to be a contradiction.

Sari83 (original quote):
"What I don't understand is people who think His words would actually pass away when He says otherwise. For so long people didn't even bother to read the Old Testament because they were taught it has passed and was no longer applicable"

Sari83 (update)
Interestingly enough, I spoke at a church a few weeks ago. Afterwards, I had a conversation with a woman who'd been a Christian for 20+ years and had just recently read the Old Testament for the first time.

Sari83 (original quote):
To me it is illogical to say that the Hebrew Bible was given the label "Old Testament" because it contains the Old Covenant. The fact is that [b]the Old Covenant is officially outlined in only five or so of the biblical books.

Sari83 (update):
I'm still not completely clear who made the distinguishment between the Old and New Testaments. What's it Marcion?

Sari83 (original quote):
The book of Enoch contains many similar sayings that are found in Matthew. Also the book of Jude bears witness to Enoch's prophecies.

Sari83 (update):
Upon further research I've also realized that Tertullian and many of the early church fathers considered the book of enoch to be divinely inspired.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:I'm still not completely clear who made the distinguishment between the Old and New Testaments. What's it Marcion?

No, I think the first one was the Prophet Jeremiah

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

[sari83]

(04-16-2011 07:55 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  

Quote:I'm still not completely clear who made the distinguishment between the Old and New Testaments. What's it Marcion?

No, I think the first one was the Prophet Jeremiah

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

I was referring to the literal division of the books of the Bible.

[Vic]

(04-16-2011 08:15 AM)sari83 Wrote:  

(04-16-2011 07:55 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  

Quote:I'm still not completely clear who made the distinguishment between the Old and New Testaments. What's it Marcion?

No, I think the first one was the Prophet Jeremiah

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

I was referring to the literal division of the books of the Bible.

Actually Scripturally as Rose said, but there's more to show why there was a natural division.

First, The bible was literally the Greek word for 'books' and began to be used by the 5th century as the term for all the books of the Bible.. While the Jews used to divide the OT into sections for synagogue services and used verses by the 9th century; Division into actual chapters for Christian use was first implemented in mid 13th century, to provide a way to reference . Stephens in 1551 introduced verses, but Tyndale and Coverdale didn't use them, but it became common practice after that.

Now for the scriptural reason for a very natural division. The prophets were silent for about 400 years, and after the fact, it became clear that the prophets had proclaimed all they were supposed to concerning the coming New Covenant, the Messiah, and the salvation of God and the fulfillment of that. There was the break of about 400 years between the last prophet and the beginning of the record of the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets with the birth of Jesus Christ, the record of His time on earth, and then the laying of the foundation of the church and doctrine by the apostles, who were alone given that specific role.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

It was always about Christ. Christ coming as salvation and how He clearly stated He had FULFILLED the law and the prophets and the psalms concerning Himself. That is why the distinction is so natural between the silence of the prophets for 400 years, meaning they were done, and beginning the message of John the Baptist, who as Jesus said, was Elias who was to come.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[daughterofthMostHigh]

People seem to have a misunderstanding of Messianic Jews. We DO BELIEVE that Yeshua's birth was of a virgin. We DO BELIEVE that He is G-d incarnate, We DO BELIEVE what the Torah says. There's scripture after scripture about being "grafted into the vine". NOT that Christians have replaced Y'israel! NO! But they Yeshua has made us part of Y'israel.

Also I want to share these scriptures of prophecy that came from the OT and were shown fullfilled in the NT.

Born of a Virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22&23
Born in Bethleham Micah 5:2 Luke 2:4
Called out of Egypt Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
Yeshua Taught in Parables Psalm 78:1-2 Matthew 13: 34-35
Yeshua Healed the Sick Isaiah 35:4-6 Matthew 11:2-6
Entered into Jerusalem on a donkey Zechariah 9:9 John 12: 12-15
Yeshua Beaten Isaiah 50:5-6 Mark 15:15-20
His Hands and Feet Pierced Psalm 22:16 Mark 15: 20-26

His Garments Divided Psalm 22:18 Mark 15: 20-26
Yeshua Killed and Buried Isaiah 53:8-9 Mark 15: 33-37
Yeshua rose on the 3rd Day Hosea 6:2 1 Corinthians 15: 3-4

[Rose of Shushan]

Hi daughterofthMostHigh
welcome to the forum and thank you for all those Scriptures pertaining to the prophecies

Quote:People seem to have a misunderstanding of Messianic Jews. We DO BELIEVE that Yeshua's birth was of a virgin. We DO BELIEVE that He is G-d incarnate, We DO BELIEVE what the Torah says. There's scripture after scripture about being "grafted into the vine". NOT that Christians have replaced Y'israel! NO! But they Yeshua has made us part of Y'israel.

Having being involved in the whole messianic judaism thing I can speak from experience when I say that even the phrase messianic jew can be vague so its no wonder that there are misunderstandings.
A messianic jew can range from being an orthodox jew that believes in a Messiah to come or even one that they say has come like the Lubavitchers to a gentile that has decided that because his name ends in ez that he is now a sephardic jew.
Its such a diverse boat out there and some will believe in the virgin birth but just as many don't or no longer do after being swayed by the various anti missionary arguments out there.
There is a lot of confusion also on what is Israel according to the flesh ie descendants of Jacob and what Paul called the Israel of God.
To me Israel was a shadow and type of the heavenly realities and in the New Covenant, the people of God are no longer restricted to the descendants of Jacob but to everyone regardless of descent.Many might say that strangers and soujourners were always welcome in the Old and that is so true since God by Israel wanted to show His glory to the world and all were welcome to join His holy People as strangers and soujourners.Remember when He sent Jonah to the Assyrians? God cares for all.But that was then and this is now and this New and wonderful Covenant that He ushered in is based on better promises and sometimes people forget that and stay trying to observe both covenants.I too, fell prey to this at one time in my life.