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sari83 · (This post was last modified: 10-26-2010 11:30 PM by sari83.)

There is only one witness. Matthew 1:23 is the only place in the NT that references the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy.

Vine's Expository Dictionary states that Immanuel is Isaiah's son. See the bold letters in the article below.

VIRGIN

`almah ^5959^, "virgin; maiden." This noun has an Ugaritic cognate, although the masculine form also appears in Aramaic, Syriac, and Arabic. The feminine form of the root appears 9 times; the only 2 appearances of the masculine form (`elem) are in First Samuel. This suggests that this word was used rarely, perhaps because other words bore a similar meaning.
That `almah can mean "virgin" is quite clear in <Song of Sol. 6:8>: "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins [NASB, "maidens"] without number." Thus all the women in the court are described. The word `almah represents those who are eligible for marriage but are neither wives (queens) nor concubines. These "virgins" all loved the king and longed to be chosen to be with him (to be his bride), even as did the Shulamite who became his bride <1:3-4>. In <Gen. 24:43> the word describes Rebekah, of whom it is said in <Gen. 24:16> that she was a "maiden" with whom no man had had relations. Solomon wrote that the process of wooing a woman was mysterious to him <Prov. 30:19>. Certainly in that day a man ordinarily wooed one whom he considered to be a "virgin." There are several contexts, therefore, in which a young girl's virginity is expressly in view.
Thus `almah appears to be used more of the concept "virgin" than that of "maiden," yet always of a woman who had not borne a child. This makes it the ideal word to be used in <Isa. 7:14>, since the word betulah emphasizes virility more than virginity (although it is used with both emphases, too). The reader of <Isa. 7:14> in the days preceding the birth of Jesus would read that a "virgin who is a maiden" would conceive a child. This was a possible, but irregular, use of the word since the word can refer merely to the unmarried status of the one so described. The child immediately in view was the son of the prophet and his wife (cf. <Isa. 8:3>) who served as a sign to Ahaz that his enemies would be defeated by God. On the other hand, the reader of that day must have been extremely uncomfortable with this use of the word, since its primary connotation is "virgin" rather than "maiden." Thus the clear translation of the Greek in <Matt. 1:23> whereby this word is rendered "virgin" satisfies its fullest implication. Therefore, there was no embarrassment to Isaiah when his wife conceived a son by him, since the word `almah allowed for this. Neither is there any embarrassment in Matthew's understanding of the word.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

(10-26-2010 07:44 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: I just wanted to add a quick note on the birth of Isaiah's son. In chapter 7, God speaks of a virgin conceiving whose son would be called Emmanuel. But in chapter 8, Isaiah goes in with his wife and she conceives and the son's name is not "Immanuel", but Mahershalalhashbaz

H4122
מהר שׁלל חשׁ בּז
mahêr shâlâl châsh baz
BDB Definition:
= Maher-shalal-hash-baz “swift is booty, speedy is prey”
1) symbolic name given by Isaiah by the Lord’s direction to Isaiah’s son; prophetic indication that Damascus and Samaria were soon to be plundered by the king of Assyria

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 8:1 Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.
Isa 8:2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.
Isa 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
Isa 8:4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.
Isa 8:5 The LORD spake also unto me again, saying,
Isa 8:6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Immanuel cannot be Isaiah's son.

If one believes that the NT is the inspired Word of God, then when Matthew and Luke say that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, then that is truth. Jesus said, reiterating the OT, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Would you agree to that?

(10-26-2010 05:10 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:4. If Jesus' birth was a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14, why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel?

In the rest of the Matthew passage.It reads

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

We see there that Matthew says that Jesus birth was the fulfillment of the Isaiah verse.So it is the Scriptures that are attributing the Isaiah verse to Jesus not just christians in general.Immanu el means literally with us(immanu), El, God. It doesnt necesarily follow that that would be the child's name but that it was what he would be called.
So in the Isaiah verse we see that it says that the child would be called God with us.Isnt that what Jesus is? God dwelling with man. Both physically,as He did 2000 years ago and spiritually as he said He and the Father would come and make their abode within us.

Immanuel is a personal name, not a proper noun.

6005 `Immanuw'el (im-maw-noo-ale');

from 5973 and 410 with a pronominal suffix inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a type name of Isaiah's son:

KJV-- Immanuel.

(10-26-2010 06:04 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: If the Hebrews of Jesus' time knew that Isaiah had prophesied the Messiah would be born of virgin conception, Jesus' miraculous birth would have been publicly known and acknowledged.

[b][color=#4B0082]It actually was publically acknowledged and publicised which is why we know of this event today. We see from the NT that the event was acknowledged and publicised and that many Israelites did believe and accept Him even if the leadership didn't.
There are various references in the NT where we see that Jesus was regarded primarily as Mary's son so the people did publically acknowledge that fact.

Can you give me the scriptures that publicize the virgin birth?

I can see scripturally that Jesus was publicly acknowledged to be the son of Joseph:

Matt 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
(KJV)

John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
(KJV)

John 6:42
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
(KJV)

Luke 4:22
And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
(KJV)