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Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
10-26-2011, 10:22 PM (This post was last modified: 10-27-2011 02:46 PM by Vic.)
Post: #21
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Quote:Please consider taking the time to introduce yourself to other members here: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=17

Quote:Belonging to Christ is not about race or heritage > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=276

Charles: I have to disagree with the above statement. Galatians makes it clear that we are heirs of Abraham. Abraham was Jewish or at least the beginning of the Jews. Yeshua was a Jew. Therefore my Lord was a Jew. If I am an heir of Abraham, the only way I can be is to be "Jewish" in a sense. I do not mean becoming "pretend Jews".

Quote:As an aside CP, not posting links is really meaning not posting links. Including the way you've been posting them. I know it's a pain but, in all fairness, you really have been posting/promoting links in almost every post and directing readers to that one particular HR site, plus now all the other links. Maybe hold off doing that until you get your 50 posts. Thanks.

Vic thank you for your kind instruction. It is hard to talk about something in isolation without referring to it. However I will do my best to not mention it again.

How will I know when I have 50 posts?
(:-) Should I make up a whole bunch of posts to make that happen faster? (:-) Just teasing but ....


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Quote:Please note also, that it is unnecessary for you to enlarge your font to make the point you want to make. It makes it appear you are shouting at Rose as you are obviously being very passionate, and which I am sure that isn't your intent.

I am sorry. I find it is easier for me to read larger fonts. I usually write in font size 14 or 16 as a matter of ease of reading so I don't have to take my glasses on and off. However since you have asked me not to, I will stop.
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Quote:If you are still struggling with how the forum quotes work, and a practice which will help is write in notepad, word or wordpad, and edit there, and when quoting, square bracket the word quote, and when closing the quote, square bracket/quote and close the square bracket. THis system sometimes swipes your posts just as you go to post, so it really is a good practice to work up an answer before setting it into a reply post. It works best to answer only one poster and one post at a time, and that will lessen the confusion of your posts. Any other problems or questions please contact me. Thanks. [/b][/color]

No I see now how to use the quote symbol a the top. Like I said a a bit different than most forums I write on.

ComputerDoc
{Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic}


Is that okay?
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10-26-2011, 10:41 PM (This post was last modified: 10-26-2011 11:00 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #22
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Quote:Charles: I have to disagree with the above statement. Galatians makes it clear that we are heirs of Abraham. Abraham was Jewish or at least the beginning of the Jews. Yeshua was a Jew. Therefore my Lord was a Jew. If I am an heir of Abraham, the only way I can be is to be "Jewish" in a sense. I do not mean becoming "pretend Jews".

Actually Abraham was not jewish and the point that Galatians makes is that we become heirs of Abraham not according to the fleshly lineage and blood descent from Abraham but spiritually through faith.
Otherwise how then could gentiles ever be Abrahams's children if they have already been born. One cannot choose to be born again of the flesh.Only the Spirit Smile



Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Do you see it says those that are of faith are the children of Abraham and then it says that God would justify the nations or heathen ie non israelites, through faith.
It says nothing about becoming a jew like you alluded to.



Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Charles it is not about becoming spiritual jews.In the NT the offer to become a child of God is not based on your lineage but is wide open to all with a level playing field so to speak.
In the following passage we have a centurion ie a roman and gentile coming to Jesus for healing for his servant.Jesus healed the servant,commended the centurion's great faith and then put gentiles on an equal footing with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in sharing the blessings to come while some of those of the patriarchs' lineage would miss out.We can gather from that that it is not lineage that saves us but the placing of faith in Jesus for our salvation.

Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

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10-27-2011, 12:32 PM
Post: #23
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
[quote='computerdoc' pid='8413' dateline='1319682122']
[quote]Please consider taking the time to introduce yourself to other members here: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=17[/quote]

[quote]Belonging to Christ is not about race or heritage > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=276[/quote]

[quote]Charles: I have to disagree with the above statement. Galatians makes it clear that we are heirs of Abraham. Abraham was Jewish or at least the beginning of the Jews. Yeshua was a Jew. Therefore my Lord was a Jew. If I am an heir of Abraham, the only way I can be is to be "Jewish" in a sense. I do not mean becoming "pretend Jews". [/quote]

Rose has addressed this but I am going to say the Scriptures themselves say--there are no more Jew, Gentile, male or female in CHrist. We are heirs through faith, not Judaism or fleshly lineage.

We become part of the Body of Christ---who in the flesh was fully man, of the throne and lineage of David, but much more than that because He is fully God manifest in the flesh. That lineage was chosen by God for THE SEED--meaning Jesus Christ to come through. And when THAT Seed came, everything changed. It was about the Spiritual, not the flesh.


Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


It is absolutely not about being 'Jewish', having a hebraic mindset, or being a Judaic Christian/ity--I believe you used that term before. Scripture says this:


Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


The disciples --followers of Jesus Christ --were called Christians because that is what the word means. Judaism as it stands now and stood at the time of Christ, rejected the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. THose who believed Christ , both Jews and Gentiles followed HIM. The Jews who had believed Moses and the prophets believed and followed Christ because they recognised He was the Salvation of God. That is Scriptural.

You've tried to make a huge point of Rose having been burnt etc, and she is biased and can't possibly understand the real Hebrew roots or label you want to push on your Messianic spin. She isn't twice shy. Further, I have never been part of the HR/Messianic movement but was invited to partake. I chose rather to research it and all the variants of it, and have found it wanting and contrary to Scripture--from a fully Christian and Biblical and factual perspective, and that for over ten years of research and dialogue with many in the movement and those who have left it.


[quote]Vic thank you for your kind instruction. It is hard to talk about something in isolation without referring to it. However I will do my best to not mention it again.

How will I know when I have 50 posts?
(:-) Should I make up a whole bunch of posts to make that happen faster? (:-) Just teasing but ....
[/quote]

Look at the top right side of your posts. It shows a post count. You didn't need to promote a HR website in order to discuss your HR/Messianic beliefs. If you had read the forum rules as all are repeatedly directed to do before posting, you would have seen very clearly you have been violating forum rules from the getgo. Including trying to add various links to your many endeavors in your signature. Another no no and violation of that same link rule. You are well read, and I am sure you understand what is being said here. Smiley-face-thumb

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[quote]I am sorry. I find it is easier for me to read larger fonts. I usually write in font size 14 or 16 as a matter of ease of reading so I don't have to take my glasses on and off. However since you have asked me not to, I will stop.
[/quote]

I have no problem with you using larger font for that reason. However, you are/have been inconsistent with it, which gives the appearance of what I suggested. Feel free to use larger font for reading purposes. Others also have that issue.
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[quote]No I see now how to use the quote symbol a the top. Like I said a a bit different than most forums I write on.

ComputerDoc
>>>>>Trip-Ways - The guaranteed cheapest flights and motels.<<<<<[/quote]

IF You advertise any further, whether it be commercial venture, or website, you will be banned for spamming. Quite frankly you have been doing it all along and it stops now or you will no longer be posting.

If you would please read the forum rules ---it would eliminate any further issues, unless your goal is merely to spam???

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=28

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-27-2011, 05:14 PM
Post: #24
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Quote:We become part of the Body of Christ---who in the flesh was fully man, of the throne and lineage of David, but much more than that because He is fully God manifest in the flesh. That lineage was chosen by God for THE SEED--meaning Jesus Christ to come through. And when THAT Seed came, everything changed. It was about the Spiritual, not the flesh. [/b] [/color]

CHARLES: I agree with 99% of everything you are saying. So was Jesus Jewish? And I am part of his "body"? I think you may be over-reacting to my statements because of the HR people you have experienced. I am not an HR. I know all of the stuff you are saying.
I do have a question. Please consider that I am only asking these questions to establish what you believe and I will consider your answers carefully.

Who would you consider to be the first Jew if not Abraham?

Quote:Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Was David Jewish?

Quote:Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, [b]but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, [/b]

CHARLES: So what does the above verse mean to you?

Quote: Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the [b]father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. [/b] Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [/b]

CHARLES:
  1. 1 Who does the "will call them my people" refer to in the above verses?
  2. 2 Who does the "call them my people who WERE NOT my people" refer to?


Quote:Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, [b]Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [/b]

CHARLES:
In the above verse who do you consider "ye are not my people" to be referring to?


In the above verse, who do you consider "there shall they be called the children of the living God" to be referring to?

Quote:Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

CHARLES: Who do you consider "Abraham and his seed were the promises made" to be referring to?

Quote:Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. [/b]

CHARLES:
Who do you conisider "Abraham's seed ... and heirs.... promise" to be?

Who was the promise originally made to?


Quote:Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

[color=#006400]CHARLES: Who do you consider the "seed of Abraham" to be?

Quote:You've tried to make a huge point of Rose having been burnt etc, and she is biased and can't possibly understand the real Hebrew roots or label you want to push on your Messianic spin. She isn't twice shy.


CHARLES: We are all biased. There is no monopoly on truth is there? I am trying to push nothing unless what you say to me you also refer to as trying to "push" on me.

I was saying that when you have come out of something not good, not right, then you are more sensitive to anything that sounds close to it. I used common metaphors but this is what I meant. If you have been in a severe car accident, you tend to be a bit more fearful of accidents at least for awhile. If your husband died of Hodgkins Disease as my youngest daughter's did, you are more sensitive to critical health problems that may lead to death. That is what I am saying. If you have never experienced any of the above then you are NOT so sensitive to them.

Quote:[b]Look at the top right side of your posts. It shows a post count.

[color=#006400]Thanks.

Quote:You didn't need to promote a HR website in order to discuss your HR/Messianic beliefs. If you had read the forum rules as all are repeatedly directed to do before posting, you would have seen very clearly you have been violating forum rules from the getgo.


CHARLES: Vic it is not as easy as all that. I read all the forum rules but did not remember any references to the ".""com". It was not attempting to be deliberately disobedient of your rules. I just thought that might be okay. It is okay on some forums to refer to links that way but not be able to create an actual "click-on" link.
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Quote:[b]I have no problem with you using larger font for that reason. However, you are/have been inconsistent with it, which gives the appearance of what I suggested. Feel free to use larger font for reading purposes. Others also have that issue.

Yes after checking I see that sometimes I thought I had made them all large but then they were not ALL large. Toward the end of some of my posts I seem to have forgotten to enlarge them. And please excuse my inconsistency.

I have no intention to spam

I appreciate your forum. You do allow open discussion which is good.

Of course you do not know me Vic, so what I have done may look pushy or spammy or whatever. For me the thought never entered my mind.

And because you do not know me and see me defending what I consider true Christians with a "Hebraic flavour" of course you quoted all kinds of Bible verses that I know very well and have quoted them and others to those who insist that "now that we are Christians and have the Holy Spirit we can better follow the law like Jesus did" people.

Just like I do not believe any denomination has a monopoly on the truth or the "correct" type of worship, I see that also with two groups of I will call the messianics for want of a better term.

There are those who want to be "torah" followers and become like "pretend" Jews. However there are also those like John Parsons and many others that are not so pushy and believe in being a Christian first but that some things are allowed which are not part of the "torah".

I mean this in the same way that Paul did when they had the conference in Jerusalem and because gentiles were becoming Christians, decided to have a very few "rules" but definitely not circimcision or having to eat kosher etc.

Perhaps you have only or mainly had experience with the pushy "pretend Jewish" kind of messianic. But there are others and they probably have been Messianic Jews for a very long time. The ones I know about have been since the 70's or 80's. That is all I am trying to establish.

The pushy "pretenders" seem to be more recent. I see that is who you are trying to help because they definitely are in error saying things like "well I don't know about Paul" to make what Paul says less important than the rest of the NT.

Does this help you know me any better?
God bless you Vic

-Charles
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10-27-2011, 06:40 PM
Post: #25
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
I was writing this I guess when you were posting, in regards to all your prior posts. Charles, The issue is as Christians we aren't bound to politics, a country or nations but are of the Body of Christ and are seeking the country to come.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
1Co 7:24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

What are Christians supposed to be viewing all others as?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Democracy--and other politics and systems, if one looks at Scripture for Israel under the Sinai covenant, were they supposed to allow all faiths to reside within their land?

Are politics and governments God given? Yes. Are they honoring to Christ and Biblically obedient? NO. But they will fulfill His purposes.

In reality--what religion thinks that their own is incorrect? there is not one nation , not one religion that does not view Christians or Christ in the 'wrong' light--just as Jesus declared would happen to BELIEVERS<. And that Charles is what we are to be focused on. Sharing Jesus Christ. It's not about politics and the things of the world. It's about Christ and serving and sharing HIM. Showing His love TO ALL and not alienating Muslims or Jews or Hindus or whoever by proclaiming them 'political' enemies and therefore enemies of Christians. How can we share Christ if we abide the worlds views instead of Christ's towards the lost? And yes just saying that can be viewed as offensive but it fully about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And nothing less than that for a Christian.


Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Php 1:30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.


It seems almost every person promoting HR/Messianic/Judaic roots/Jesus was a Jew etc, omit the fact that even when Jesus was teaching on the earth, there were Gentiles that believed, aside from the thousands of Jews who did believe before and after He rose from the grave. After Christ commissioned the apostles, they taught the Jews but there were Gentiles taught as well, and Peter and some other Jewish believers who were with him, and then Paul, were sent to the Gentiles. THese were ALL the original believers who comprised the Church or Body of Christ and most of the epistles were written by Paul in ministry to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. THis was ALL the beginnings of the early church and it was clearly comprised of Jews and Gentiles. To the Jews first by Christ Himself and then the apostles, to fulfill prophecy and then the Gentiles. Just as necessary for all to be fulfilled.

Jesus began His ministry in Galilee..in Isaiah Galilee is known as Galilee of the nations.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


You were speaking about the counsel in Jerusalem and the 'rules' from Judaism. The counsel was called because of Jewish believers wrongly teaching Gentiles [and fellow Jews] they had to keep the law of Moses.


Acts 15:24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Please see the following for indepth on the counsel> http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs3a.htm#acts15

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is THE SAME for Jews and Gentiles. Peter and Paul clearly demonstrated that. We are to be followers of Jesus Christ, not the world or religion or politics.

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...37&page=19

PLease note, in freedom in Christ one can live culturally as others do, in any nation, except where it deviates from what we are called to in Christ, the Gospel and Biblical soundness, and particularly under the New Covenant and the law of Christ. Which is why Paul could minister to both Jews and Gentiles. And he taught of being no longer bound to keeping the Law which is why he was persecuted by those in Judaism, ie the religion of the Jews.


1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


There is a common practice by those promoting your views Charles, and that is to say the rebels or newbies or fringe are the ones all messed up and promoting the wrong things. But it is also common practice for those 'mainstream' 'goodguys' to be in full contradiction of denying use of talmud, kabbalah or keeping the law etc, and yet upon inspection there is little to no difference. It's supposed to be about Christ.

For discussion on those things please see: http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm >
To embrace Hebrew roots series> http://www.seekgod.ca/embraceintro.htm ;
The Spreading Hebrew Roots series > http://www.seekgod.ca/spreadingroots.htm ;
Toward Jerusalem Council II > http://www.seekgod.ca/jerusalem2.htm ;
the ecumenical side of it all > http://www.seekgod.ca/topicpaths.htm#eject
and there's various other articles listed.

P.S. IN your last post you asked me to explain my beliefs about the Scriptures which I had given you, and without explaining your take on them. How about you explain what those Scriptures mean to you. THanks.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-27-2011, 08:11 PM
Post: #26
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Quote:There is a common practice by those promoting your views Charles, and that is to say the rebels or newbies or fringe are the ones all messed up and promoting the wrong things.

CHARLES:
And what views are you talking about? Did you want to pick one? I am simply defending someone who I feel I know who is a brother but it seems here that he is dismissed as being something else. Is that not a form of judging? Are we to be the judges? Would you like some scriptures?

I was trying to help those who do not know John Parson or his teachings to understand him. I am not sure if that is welcome here.

So I wanted to ask your views so that I would know if I should stop the discussion.

If my views are being judged as being wrong by others on this forum, then why would I want to defend them to people who may not consider the views of another as possibly being right even if that person has more knowledge of a particular subject?

Peacemaking is an honourable goal.

What do you think of this scripture?

[b]King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. Luke 9:50
[/b]

Quote:P.S. IN your last post you asked me to explain my beliefs about the Scriptures which I had given you, and without explaining your take on them. How about you explain what those Scriptures mean to you. THanks.[/b] [/color]

I have found out that is rather dangerous here as I am then submerged almost by whole books of the Bible. All of which I have known for years and are nothing new to me.

However I really didn't get your point of view of those scriptures.

Don't you find that sometimes you see a scripture that you have known for years and suddenly you see a new angle on it? I[/quote] would rather take small portions and discuss what a person's views are of it.

However it is your board and you can do or not do what you want.

So if you do not want to explain your beliefs that is okay. It is your choice.

God bless you anyway

Charles
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10-28-2011, 06:18 PM
Post: #27
RE: General questions for former Messianics
All of these words used Rose are "hateful" and biased. You seem to see reports by individuals who have experienced Islamist violence as liars. Where is your evidence?

What is "hate propaganda"? If someone called you a painted gravestone or a "daughter of the devil" would you consider that hate speech?

Who said they were liars? Can they be trusted but not the people who report the problems?

You seem to dismiss anyone who disagrees with Islamist or bad Muslim behavior is an islamophobe.[/quote]

Quote:[b][color=#800080]Charles, the reason I am using those words is because the people and film you endorse and recommend are very extreme and foster hate towards muslims. As I said there is evidence out there that suggests very very strongly that their accounts are not totally truthful and that they have an agenda to foster distrust of muslims and to promote fear that sharia law is infiltrating America.


I hate to tell you Rose but you have been led to believe by individuals with little or no evidence these things you say above. I have heard testimonies from Muslims that have become Christians and were won over by the love of Christians that they were sent to certain areas in the Bible belt of the U.S. to win over Christians to the Muslim point of view.

What or who makes you think they are extreme? All evidence I have is to the opposite, that they are being truthful and warning what may come.

Would you accuse Jesus or Yeshua as "fostering hate" when he called certain people "whitewashed tombstones" and "sons of the devil"?

Telling the truth Rose is NOT fostering hate.

Rose, Muslims right here in Ontario, asked to be able to have Sharia law for Muslims but thanks to Mr. M. it was turned down. In states that become Islamic, one of the first things they do is consider Sharia law as the law of the land regardless of whether Christians, Jews and others want it or not. IT applies to them as well.

There is nothing extreme about telling the truth. Yeshua did it and he got crucified. When people that have experienced Islamic persecution tell it, some crucify them by their words.

Here is a quote from only one report. I could fill pages up with the reports, eyewitness and otherwise that support what the people above are warning us about.

[b]"Prominent Christians in the Middle East have expressed alarm at the impact intense persecution is having on Christians in Palestine, as many continue to abandon their faith and leave their homelands.

Israeli attorney and author, Justus Reid Weiner, has just penned a new book, ‘Human Rights Christians in Palestinian Society’, based on eight years of research into the human rights abuses directed at Muslims who converted to Christianity.

Originally he “doubted that anyone would victimize the adherents of the world's largest religion.”

He told Crosswalk: “But as I began to schedule interviews, I quickly learned that most of the Christian victims were reluctant to even meet me. If they agreed to reveal what they had suffered, they insisted that I refer to them by a pseudonym.”

According to Don Finto, pastor and author of ‘God’s Promise and the Future of Israel’, due for release in February, the persecution is happening primarily within the Palestinian territories.

The situation for Arab Christians within Israel, according to the author, is relatively peaceful, due to much greater acceptance and little persecution."

Do you not know what happened to Iran when it became and Islamist Republic? Do you know that during the last election in Iran people protested the vote in the streets and many were murdered or put in prison?

My friendly suggestion would be to not believe everything you hear about Islamic states whether for or against without reading what others say about it.

Do I hate Muslims? No absolutely not. I pray for them often. It is their leaders that are the brain-dirtiers that teach lies and foster hate. The average Muslim has little or no access to truthful media.

Some might say that Yeshua was extreme right. IN fact he was ABSOLUTELY right which is even more extreme than extreme.

Others only look extreme when you are looking from the diametrically-opposite point of view.

God bless you
May you know the truth and may the truth set you free.
-Computerdoc[/b]
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10-29-2011, 10:19 PM (This post was last modified: 10-29-2011 10:32 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #28
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Marie I am replying to you in this thread since Vic specifically asked for it in the other one where we were discussing.

Quote:From all my reading and understanding about Israel is that there were Arabs living in Israel, but mostly normads. The Palestinians, were Arabs, mostly from Syria, Arafat was a Syrian who started the PLO. There is no Palestinian nation, language or country.
The Middle East Research and Information Project (MERIP) reports that, according to Ottoman records, in 1878 there were 403,795 Muslims, 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews in the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts of the Ottoman Empire. There were also several thousand Bedouin and about 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship. By 1914 the population of Jews had risen to about 60,000 and the Arab population (Christians and Muslims) was around 683,000.

Marie, maybe you need to check out wider reading sources. A good Israeli historian is Ilan Pappe who taught at Haifa University.. He has written a few books that you might want to check out to get true historical viewpoints from a jewish source. In his book A History of Modern Palestine: One land two peoples, he writes;


One the eve of the Crimean War, about half a million people lived in the land of Palestine.They were arab speaking.Most were muslimsbut about 60,000 of them were Christians of various denominations and around 20,000 were jews.In addition they had to tolerate the presence of 50,000 ottoman soldiers and officials as well as 10,000 europeans.

Israel Zangwill, one of the early Zionists , stated as early as 1905, that Palestine was twice as thickly populated as the United States;

"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10)



Here is a link to a scanned page from Ben Gurion's book where he states that jews made up 12 percent of Palestine in 1914
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/...ry873.html


Quote:When Mark Twain was in Israel is the 1800's is was mostly desert and few lived there. It was with hard work that the Jewish people turned Israel into a Garden to produce fruit and etc which is sent to Europe.

Mark Twain said similiar things about Greece yet we don't expect to believe that Greece was uninhabited .The following link addresses the Mark Twain quote and makes a few very interesting points.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/...ry845.html

It seems you have unwittingly believed the story that Israel made the deserts bloom etc. As you are a Christian, it is really sad to see you falling for what are essentially lies in this respect and thus defending a system that is totally against everything that Jesus and Torah stand for.Thus I urge you to read and get informed on the other side of the story.You can do it relying solely on jewish sources so that you can be sure you are not getting what some might say are anti semitic people attacking Israel for whatever reason. Read the other side and then reject what you wish but as a Christian you owe it to yourself to get acquainted with facts and the side from different perspectives. From what you've written so far you remind me of myself a few years ago. My information on Israel was so one sided that I look back and cringe at myself!
Here are some jewish organizations that speak and work to promote information and peace on the Occupation
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

The Coalition of Women for Peace is a feminist organization against the occupation of Palestine and for a just peace.
http://www.coalitionofwomen.org/?lang=en


Jews for Justice for Palestinians
http://jfjfp.com/

http://www.justpeaceforpalestine.org/

http://rabbibrian.wordpress.com/

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/

The Jewish Fast for Gaza/ Taanit Tzedek
http://fastforgaza.net/
There are loads more websites but I don't have too much time now to delve for more and with these you get the idea.


Quote:I would much rather support a Secular Government of Israel than a "terrorist organization" who claim they are the rightful owners of the land.

Palestinians are not a terrorist organization that claim to be rightful owners of the land. Isn't that extremely harsh, especially coming from a Christian? If you delve a bit more into the history of the state of Israel you will see that the Palestinians actually lived in the land for many many years and they're not claiming to own it but just want to live there with equal rights as jewish citizens.
When the UN voted for Palestine to be partitioned in 1947, over half of the land was allotted to the Jewish state, even though Palestinians were over two thirds of the population and only 6% of Palestine was under Jewish ownership.
In 1948, as the State of Israel was established, up to 90% of the Palestinians who would have been inside the new Jewish state’s borders were expelled. As many as 500 Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed. And this is why Palestinians refer to the creation of Israel as the Nakba (‘catastrophe’ in Arabic).
There's more info on the population of Palestine at various points in the past 200 years at

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/...ry559.html




Quote:Hatred is taught! I remember on 9-11 and watching the Palestinians dancing in the streets! I will never forget it.

There's a lot of doubt about whether it was really Palestinians dancing on 911 or not,personally I won't get into it as it's something we won't really know either way.The same goes for the 5 dancing Israelis. Have you heard of those? There's a bit more evidence for those (and their motivation more sinister) by the way but again it's not something I want to get into. Whoever is interested can just google the matter.
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10-29-2011, 11:45 PM
Post: #29
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded

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10-29-2011, 11:52 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2011 02:28 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #30
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
[If some have noticed some posts are not showing up , even from prior threads. I am trying to get this post to show because it is actually there even though it shows as not, if I look at it thru the edit program. But it isn't showing when I try to resave and post it for Charles. So am wanting to try and see if there is a way to make it post. ]




By the way, this answers none of my questions. You must be referring to someone else in your quotes and answers. However ...

Yes very familiar with this. Why did you omit the efforts of people and nations to give the Jewish people a homeland because in every land they have lived they have been persecuted?

You did not mention that a very small portion of the original Balfour declaration agreed upon by the Arab envoy, Britain and Israel, was ceded by the United Nations as a homeland for the Jewish people. Even tho it was much smaller the Jews agreed but the Arabs did not and never have. Hamas has never recanted on "driving Israel into the sea".

To equate the "palestinians" with Israel is ludicrous to say the least. I see you totally omitting any problems caused by the Palestinians and terrorists and only mentioning a few problems caused by overzealous zionists.

Is that balanced to equate the terrorism of PLO, Fatah and Hamas with Israel trying to leave peacefully and allowing other faiths to live peacefully in Israel?

Your comment about me checking things needs to be turned around Rose. I will admit that occasionally there have been problems caused by Israelis. But to even attempt to equate the two is the equivalent of putting your head in the sand.

Since you are into reminders Rose.
I need to remind you of a few things.

1. I have absolutely no ill feelings toward you.
2. Telling only part of the truth is NOT truth.
3. From what you say I see a prejudice or anti-Israel or anti-semitic bias. I do not say that lightly. I do not see balance. Whenever I recount or show you an article about the treatment Christians and Jews get in palestine compared to how arabs and palestinians are treated in Israel you avoid answering that.

You seem to think that the state of Israel and Jews are equally if not worse than those who call themselves Palestinians.

Is that true? That is what I get from seeing your posts and summing them up.

The evil of palestinians being taught hate Jews and Israel from very young ages, is a problem that has to be corrected before peace can ever by even hoped for in the middle east.

You suggested I read more. However I am suggesting that you do the same. Watch youtube videos of children's programs on palestinian tv and what they say about Jews and Israel. However as a group, Israel and Jewish children are NOT taught to hate Palestinians. Some may as it is the palestinians who have killed many people in Israel and many families are missing someone because of the constant terrorism.

I told you I pray for Palestinians and all the various groups in Israel. The Prayer Watch that we attend prays for everyone. However most prayer is for the Christian ministries in Israel that we support. These ministries help people of all racial groups, not just Jews. Arabs, palestinians, druze, new immigrants from Russia, Ethiopia and the Sudan.

These ministries do every kind of good humanitarian work imaginable from feeding the starving, the homeless, helping young ladies who want to keep their babies, helping drug and alcohol addicts, free dental care, putting together school kits for children of poor families, helping destitute holocaust victims [yes there stil are some].

Project Joseph is one of those.

The history you cited I would agree with in general.
Actually not sure if you knew but the name Palestine came from the "philistines" ancient enemies of Israel. They settled along the coast of the Mediterranean.

You are questioning Marie about whether the Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11 ... you cast doubt on that fact .....

Why do you always seem to find something wrong with the Jews or Israel every time somone tells you about problems caused by palestinians?

I do not suppose I will get an answer.

I just ask YOU Rose to not deceive yourself thinking there is some equivalency between wrongs caused by "Palestinians" and wrongs caused by Jews.

God is interested in Truth.
The truth shall make you free.

May God bless you and bring you freedom
Computerdoc.

(10-29-2011 11:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded


Perhaps it is because the primary offenders and terrorists are palestinians who are taught from young children to hate Jews. I know it from testimonies of people who lived in Palestine and from watching videos produced by palestinian tv for children and many, many other sources.

No one is saying that Israel is perfect. But would you have good feelings toward a group that has agreed many times to give peace if Israel only gives up a bit more land and they have NEVER once abided by their agreements?

Perhaps you do not realize that Muslims are encouraged to lie if it advances the cause of Allah. Remembering that most Muslims are victims of their own leaders and teachers, no prejudice.

For some strange reason I see no encouragement to lie in either the OT or the NT.

Computerdoc

I am finding my posts blank, no previews occur, and when I hit Post Reply, there is absolutely nothing there. Vic if you really don't want me on this board and are doing this deliberately can you not just tell me instead of this?

Okay this one worked but two others did not.

Here was the content of the last one.

(10-29-2011 11:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded


Perhaps it is because the primary offenders and terrorists are palestinians who are taught from young children to hate Jews. I know it from testimonies of people who lived in Palestine and from watching videos produced by palestinian tv for children and many, many other sources.

No one is saying that Israel is perfect. But would you have good feelings toward a group that has agreed many times to give peace if Israel only gives up a bit more land and they have NEVER once abided by their agreements?

Perhaps you do not realize that Muslims are encouraged to lie if it advances the cause of Allah. Remembering that most Muslims are victims of their own leaders and teachers, no prejudice.

For some strange reason I see no encouragement to lie in either the OT or the NT.

Computerdoc





Computerdoc

I am finding my posts blank, no previews occur, and when I hit Post Reply, there is absolutely nothing there. Vic if you really don't want me on this board and are doing this deliberately can you not just tell me instead of this?

Okay this one worked but two others did not.

Here was the content of the last one.

(10-29-2011 11:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded


Perhaps it is because the primary offenders and terrorists are palestinians who are taught from young children to hate Jews. I know it from testimonies of people who lived in Palestine and from watching videos produced by palestinian tv for children and many, many other sources.

No one is saying that Israel is perfect. But would you have good feelings toward a group that has agreed many times to give peace if Israel only gives up a bit more land and they have NEVER once abided by their agreements?

Perhaps you do not realize that Muslims are encouraged to lie if it advances the cause of Allah. Remembering that most Muslims are victims of their own leaders and teachers, no prejudice.

For some strange reason I see no encouragement to lie in either the OT or the NT.

Computerdoc


Computerdoc


[If some have noticed some posts are not showing up , even from prior threads. I am trying to get this post to show because it is actually there even though it shows as not, if I look at it thru the edit program. But it isn't showing when I try to resave and post it for Charles. So am wanting to try and see if there is a way to make it post. ]


By the way, this answers none of my questions. You must be referring to someone else in your quotes and answers. However ...

Yes very familiar with this. Why did you omit the efforts of people and nations to give the Jewish people a homeland because in every land they have lived they have been persecuted?

You did not mention that a very small portion of the original Balfour declaration agreed upon by the Arab envoy, Britain and Israel, was ceded by the United Nations as a homeland for the Jewish people. Even tho it was much smaller the Jews agreed but the Arabs did not and never have. Hamas has never recanted on "driving Israel into the sea".

To equate the "palestinians" with Israel is ludicrous to say the least. I see you totally omitting any problems caused by the Palestinians and terrorists and only mentioning a few problems caused by overzealous zionists.

Is that balanced to equate the terrorism of PLO, Fatah and Hamas with Israel trying to leave peacefully and allowing other faiths to live peacefully in Israel?

Your comment about me checking things needs to be turned around Rose. I will admit that occasionally there have been problems caused by Israelis. But to even attempt to equate the two is the equivalent of putting your head in the sand.

Since you are into reminders Rose.
I need to remind you of a few things.

1. I have absolutely no ill feelings toward you.
2. Telling only part of the truth is NOT truth.
3. From what you say I see a prejudice or anti-Israel or anti-semitic bias. I do not say that lightly. I do not see balance. Whenever I recount or show you an article about the treatment Christians and Jews get in palestine compared to how arabs and palestinians are treated in Israel you avoid answering that.

You seem to think that the state of Israel and Jews are equally if not worse than those who call themselves Palestinians.

Is that true? That is what I get from seeing your posts and summing them up.

The evil of palestinians being taught hate Jews and Israel from very young ages, is a problem that has to be corrected before peace can ever by even hoped for in the middle east.

You suggested I read more. However I am suggesting that you do the same. Watch youtube videos of children's programs on palestinian tv and what they say about Jews and Israel. However as a group, Israel and Jewish children are NOT taught to hate Palestinians. Some may as it is the palestinians who have killed many people in Israel and many families are missing someone because of the constant terrorism.

I told you I pray for Palestinians and all the various groups in Israel. The Prayer Watch that we attend prays for everyone. However most prayer is for the Christian ministries in Israel that we support. These ministries help people of all racial groups, not just Jews. Arabs, palestinians, druze, new immigrants from Russia, Ethiopia and the Sudan.

These ministries do every kind of good humanitarian work imaginable from feeding the starving, the homeless, helping young ladies who want to keep their babies, helping drug and alcohol addicts, free dental care, putting together school kits for children of poor families, helping destitute holocaust victims [yes there stil are some].

Project Joseph is one of those.

The history you cited I would agree with in general.
Actually not sure if you knew but the name Palestine came from the "philistines" ancient enemies of Israel. They settled along the coast of the Mediterranean.

You are questioning Marie about whether the Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11 ... you cast doubt on that fact .....

Why do you always seem to find something wrong with the Jews or Israel every time somone tells you about problems caused by palestinians?

I do not suppose I will get an answer.

I just ask YOU Rose to not deceive yourself thinking there is some equivalency between wrongs caused by "Palestinians" and wrongs caused by Jews.

God is interested in Truth.
The truth shall make you free.

May God bless you and bring you freedom
Computerdoc.

(10-29-2011 11:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded


Perhaps it is because the primary offenders and terrorists are palestinians who are taught from young children to hate Jews. I know it from testimonies of people who lived in Palestine and from watching videos produced by palestinian tv for children and many, many other sources.

No one is saying that Israel is perfect. But would you have good feelings toward a group that has agreed many times to give peace if Israel only gives up a bit more land and they have NEVER once abided by their agreements?

Perhaps you do not realize that Muslims are encouraged to lie if it advances the cause of Allah. Remembering that most Muslims are victims of their own leaders and teachers, no prejudice.

For some strange reason I see no encouragement to lie in either the OT or the NT.

Computerdoc

I am finding my posts blank, no previews occur, and when I hit Post Reply, there is absolutely nothing there. Vic if you really don't want me on this board and are doing this deliberately can you not just tell me instead of this?

Okay this one worked but two others did not.

Here was the content of the last one.

(10-29-2011 11:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded


Perhaps it is because the primary offenders and terrorists are palestinians who are taught from young children to hate Jews. I know it from testimonies of people who lived in Palestine and from watching videos produced by palestinian tv for children and many, many other sources.

No one is saying that Israel is perfect. But would you have good feelings toward a group that has agreed many times to give peace if Israel only gives up a bit more land and they have NEVER once abided by their agreements?

Perhaps you do not realize that Muslims are encouraged to lie if it advances the cause of Allah. Remembering that most Muslims are victims of their own leaders and teachers, no prejudice.

For some strange reason I see no encouragement to lie in either the OT or the NT.

Computerdoc





Computerdoc

I am finding my posts blank, no previews occur, and when I hit Post Reply, there is absolutely nothing there. Vic if you really don't want me on this board and are doing this deliberately can you not just tell me instead of this?

Okay this one worked but two others did not.

Here was the content of the last one.

(10-29-2011 11:45 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Although I don't usually recommend videos to watch as I am more of a reader than a listener,here is one that is worth a listen as he makes so many many great points.
It's by Jewish Psychologist and christian, Mark Braverman and he asks the question Why do churches refuse to question Israel's actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSveCnwC-...r_embedded


Perhaps it is because the primary offenders and terrorists are palestinians who are taught from young children to hate Jews. I know it from testimonies of people who lived in Palestine and from watching videos produced by palestinian tv for children and many, many other sources.

No one is saying that Israel is perfect. But would you have good feelings toward a group that has agreed many times to give peace if Israel only gives up a bit more land and they have NEVER once abided by their agreements?

Perhaps you do not realize that Muslims are encouraged to lie if it advances the cause of Allah. Remembering that most Muslims are victims of their own leaders and teachers, no prejudice.

For some strange reason I see no encouragement to lie in either the OT or the NT.

Computerdoc





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