Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc

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(10-27-2011 05:14 PM)computerdoc Wrote:  CHARLES: I agree with 99% of everything you are saying. So was Jesus Jewish? And I am part of his "body"? I think you may be over-reacting to my statements because of the HR people you have experienced. I am not an HR. I know all of the stuff you are saying. ...

It would be total Scriptural ignorance to suggest that Jesus was not Jewish in the flesh in order to fulfill prophecy, don't you think? I have never, let me repeat, NEVER suggested otherwise and have lost count of the number of times of stating that and showing it Scriptural. But it comes across that that information must have been new to you. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, the Son of God, and Lord and Savior. Those trump the fleshly focus. God's Salvation and plan was known by Him from beginning to end including the lineage and all the prophecies pertaining to it concerning Christ.

I am overreacting to nothing. I have reseached HR and the Messianic movement from one end of the spectrum to the other, historically and currently. Every single person, regardless of history or background who comes to Jesus Christ must pick up their cross daily and turn their back on the world and traditions and prior beliefs that do not uphold the New Covenant and what it means to belong to Christ.

Quote:Who would you consider to be the first Jew if not Abraham?

Well if you look at Scripture, the term did not come about until after Israel aka Jacob had his sons. And God had changed his name to Israel. Abraham was not Israel 'cause Jacob was after Abraham, unless my chronology is messed up. The descendents of Jacob became known as Israelites, with one of the children, named Judah [Yehudah] and then descendents called Judahites, later Judeans. Jew is a shortened version of that.

Abraham was both a Hebrew and Semite--a descendent of Shem- 'father' of the Semitic peoples--son of Noah. As Genesis shows, Hebrews descended from Eber which is also known as Heber which became Hebrews, and who was a great-grandson of Shem. Six generations after Heber, Abram, whose name was changed by God to Abraham, was born, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Eber/Heber and Shem. BY lineage through Isaac, and then Jacob/Israel was born literally with the 12 sons/tribes.

Just for info purposes the sons of Shem collectively begat the Elamites, Persians, Assyrians, Northern Iraqis, Chaldeans, Southern Iraqis, Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, Arabians, Bedouins, Moabites, Jordanians, Palestinians, Ludim, Lubim, Ludians, Ludu, Lydians, Chubs, Aramaeans, Syrians, Lebanese, and other related Semitic groups in Asia, Asia Minor, the Middle East, and North Africa.

And not forgetting that God promised Abraham, aside from the promise concerning Isaac, that Ishmael, his son by Hagar, Sarah's maid, would be made a nation as well. Ishmael was half Semitic and half Hamitic--Hagar was Egyptian. And we know that Arab Sunnites and specifically Arab Muslims view themselves as those descendents.

Quote::Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Quote:Charles: Was David Jewish?

Are you struggling with these Scriptures and really don't know the answer to that Charles?

Rth 4:21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,
Rth 4:22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

1Ch 14:2 And David perceived that the LORD had confirmed him king over Israel, for his kingdom was lifted up on high, because of his people Israel.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Quote::Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

CHARLES: So what does the above verse mean to you?

The faith as demonstrated by Abraham, so that it might be by God's grace; so the promise given to Abraham would be confirmed for all the seed---that is ALL who come to Jesus Christ, Jew and Gentile and not just those Jews who were said to be of the law ie the Sinai covenant, in distinction to the Gentiles who were not. It was for all who believe and became believers in Jesus Christ, because the salvation of God through the Gospel was for all. The promise was extended across time and was sure in that those who believed Christ, both Jew and Gentile would have salvation. Gentiles are not of natural descent of Abraham but rather it is the spiritual and faith issue that makes him 'father' of us all. It is the Seed being Christ that makes us one Body in the Spirit when we believe. Whether Jew or Gentile those who are Christ's are Abraham's spiritual seed and heirs of eternal life solely because of God's grace.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Quote:: Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [/b]

CHARLES: 1.1 Who does the "will call them my people" refer to in the above verses?
2.2 Who does the "call them my people who WERE NOT my people" refer to?

Well Charles, if you had kept the whole passage intact, it was self explanatory. You deleted the verses between 18 and 25 which I had pasted in for your understanding. Allow me to repaste some of those passages

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, ***not of the Jews only,*** but also of the Gentiles***?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

It's referring to the prophecy of salvation for Israel and then the Gentiles---who had never been God's chosen or beloved as Israel was. IN Christ, now beloved of God, both Jew and Gentile, the Body of Christ. It is the fulfillment of that and all those in Jesus Christ are called "the children of the living God" according to the Scriptures inspired by God Himself.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Quote:: Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

CHARLES: Who do you consider "Abraham and his seed were the promises made" to be referring to?

Quote:Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. [/b]

CHARLES: Who do you conisider "Abraham's seed ... and heirs.... promise" to be? Who was the promise originally made to?

Charles, it's very self explanatory if one allows the Holy Spirit to give understanding. In fact, that's the only way one can understand the Scriptures... "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. ALL Those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed. It's clearly in the Scriptures as that. What are you thinking it means? The promise was originally made to Abraham, and the gospel preached to him by God was about the spiritual issues because the Gospel is about redemption and spiritual life in Christ. THe Scriptures are cohesive and must be read in relation to one another. For ex. When we become born again we know that it is referring to Spiritual rebirth not physically being reborn.

Quote:CHARLES: We are all biased. There is no monopoly on truth is there? I am trying to push nothing unless what you say to me you also refer to as trying to "push" on me.

I was saying that when you have come out of something not good, not right, then you are more sensitive to anything that sounds close to it. I used common metaphors but this is what I meant. If you have been in a severe car accident, you tend to be a bit more fearful of accidents at least for awhile. If your husband died of Hodgkins Disease as my youngest daughter's did, you are more sensitive to critical health problems that may lead to death. That is what I am saying. If you have never experienced any of the above then you are NOT so sensitive to them.

Quote:And because you do not know me and see me defending what I consider true Christians with a "Hebraic flavour"

Quote:There are those who want to be "torah" followers and become like "pretend" Jews. However there are also those like John Parsons and many others that are not so pushy and believe in being a Christian first but that some things are allowed which are not part of the "torah".

I mean this in the same way that Paul did when they had the conference in Jerusalem and because gentiles were becoming Christians, decided to have a very few "rules" but definitely not circimcision or having to eat kosher etc.

Perhaps you have only or mainly had experience with the pushy "pretend Jewish" kind of messianic. But there are others and they probably have been Messianic Jews for a very long time. The ones I know about have been since the 70's or 80's. That is all I am trying to establish.

The pushy "pretenders" seem to be more recent. I see that is who you are trying to help because they definitely are in error saying things like "well I don't know about Paul" to make what Paul says less important than the rest of the NT.

The Truth is found in Christ and the Scriptures. Yes everyone has bias and misunderstanding etc. You have been pushing a perspective right from your first post where you promoted Hebrew4Christians as being the real way to view Messianics. The issue concerning all of this is using the Scriptures to determine sound doctrine and discern between truth and error. You have spent considerable time suggesting we just don't know what a 'good' messianic' or hebraic mindset is about. You are the one who has made the leap to suggest to disagree with doctrine is to view all those people as non -believers. And I have NEVER suggested that, although there are some who openly deny Christ and that is self explanatory on their spiritual condition according to the Scriptures. I have dialogued with and researched MJAA, etc. I have dialogued with Christian Jews who left the Messianic movement and explained why. I have dialogued with so called Messianic/Christian pastors whose hate for being challenged on promotion of various doctrine and practices would make your hair curl in the things that were said by them. I have seen both extremes, including those denying the divinity of CHrist and Christ Himself, and middle of the road. And the conclusions are the same. It's about Christ. And rabbinic traditions and teachings of Judaism are not part of that, although that is what many times is being incorporated. If you took the time to read those links I gave you, it presents a lot of my research and questions from exactly those perspectives and beliefs across the board.

And believe me, I have friends of Jewish heritage--who call themselves Christians and some call themselves Messianics. I also have Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews as friends, incoluding rabbis who have dialogued by email with me and we have had good discussions. I have dialogued with Sacred namers, Two House, Jews for Jesus etc. I've talked to those with recognised names and those who are adherents. I've studied the issues. The bottom line is that every one of us comes from something, some culture, some country, some race, some religion and we are to turn to Jesus Christ and leave those things, and mind the same things and follow the same things in Christ. As declared in the Scriptures. Heritage and geneology no longer matter-unless one thinks in the flesh, or ignores what the Scriptures say. You cannot merge two diametrically opposed belief systems and that is the bottom line-- regardless of what it is. When someone identifies themselves as being ? race---or country? or culture?------------what Scriptures support that in Christ?

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. ...

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.