Religion - what does it do?

[Mary]

I thought I would post a discussion that has started up on my facebook for your interest, and perhaps we can broaden it out further.

"Faith is the coward’s substitute for courage. It’s also really good marketing if you’re the one who controls the faith. If you’re afraid or unwilling to ssume total responsibility for your life, you’re a perfect match for religion. - Steve Pavlina"

Mary:
So be it. Happy to be God's own fool. One thing I've noticed though, on a daily basis, is that not only does my faith get me through, it gets a whole bunch of unbelievers who are in my prayers through events, difficulties, disappointments and often overwhelming odds against them, through too. So faith, if it's a cowards's courage it is a courage that is shared and actually quite powerful.:D

Con:
On balance, Mary, things turn out positively or negatively in equal measure for those who attribute things to faith and for those who don't. Naturally, those who "have faith" ascribe their positive outcomes to a higher power (or whatever), and their negative outcomes to being "part of the plan"...

Clay: I should stay out of this one, but there is that saying "That God helps those who help themselves", and there is the other argument where you see pictures of sportmen looking up at the sky to thank God for the game they have just won VS the...



Con: Heh, heh, Clay - I generally only post items in support of my world view when I've recently suffered a surfeit of religious platitudes imposed by God's fan club. What you say reminds me of the old saying: Religion is like a p*** - its fine to have one but you shouldn't go forcing it down other people's throats... (and my personal addendum - especially not childten's throats).

Con: More Steve Pavlina:
Religions are very effective at turning human beings into sheep. They’re among the most powerful instruments of social conditioning. They operate by eroding your trust in your own intellect, gradually convincing you to put your trust into some external entity, such as a deity, prominent figure, or great book. Of course these instruments are usually controlled by those who administrate the minion training program, but they don’t have to be. Simply by convincing you to give your power away to something outside yourself, religion will condition you to be weaker, more docile, and easier to control. Religions actively promote this weakening process as if it were beneficial, commonly branding it with the word faith. What they’re actually promoting is submission.

Religions strive to fill your head with so much nonsense that your only recourse is to bow your head in submission, often quite literally. Get used to spending a lot of time on your knees because acts of submission such as bowing and kneeling are frequently incorporated into religious practice. Canine obedience training uses similar tactics. Now say, “Yes, Master.”

Mary
the "saying" god helps... should be "gods" and comes from one of Aesop's fables. The saying has no place in the Christian faith, but I can see that it will be often needed in any other faith.

Mary:
I'd be interested in Steve Pavlina's comments on China. Now let's look at the "sheep" issue. If you know Christianity, as you claim to do, you will know that it's starts off with the presumption that people are in fact sheep. "All we like sheep have gone astray" "we are His sheep" and "My sheep hear my voice". So Christianity at least of all ""religions" cannot be accused of turning people into sheep, because it recognises that we already are sheep. You talk about religion being a tool of social conditioning. Come to Australia, a very secular country and you will see immediately how very obvious and intrusively secular social conditioning operates here. You talk about shoving religion down children's throats, again come to Australia where you will see Hitler's belief in incremental operation: ' that if the people can be made to believe that things are being done for the "good" of their children they will accept it, and believe me, like sheep they do.

Let's talk about submission. It is a fact of life, and something we all have to do daily in one way or another, consciously, sub- consciously, willingly or unwillingly. Sadly most people submit willingly without much thought about what they are submitting to. The Christian faith is very clear on submission, on who to submit to and how to submit and when to submit. There is no subterfuge, or hidden agenda in the Christian faith with regard to submission. Marriage is presented as a picture of beautiful and mutual submission and demonstrates the partnership and interchangeability of the master/submissive relationship. In Christianity no matter how you may have experienced or are experiencing the "religion" of Christianity; whether you are a child, adolescent or adult, you have to make the choice to accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and the Saviour. It is a personal, between you and God decision. Religion becomes irrelevant at that point.

[Vic]

"Faith is the coward’s substitute for courage. It’s also really good marketing if you’re the one who controls the faith. If you’re afraid or unwilling to ssume total responsibility for your life, you’re a perfect match for religion. - Steve Pavlina"

The problem with Steve is he thinks he can buffalo people into thinking they are wrong to have faith as he tries to make it an issue of courage versus fear and responsibility. People who have no faith aren't willing to stand in the face of such accusations. In other words, people of faith are proven again and again to go against the crowd of mainstream society and imposed thought whether it be political correctness or moral beliefs.. That takes much more courage than to go along with those who follow secular humanism and claim it isn't 'religion'.

Further, every single person has a 'spiritual'/religious belief---even ol Steve there. If he didn't think people had faith in something he didn't understand, then he wouldn't waste a kb, or a thought about it. It would be non -existant to him, in conversation and consideration. If something doesn't exist to someone---it literally is not entertained either by pros or cons. But Steve proves he considers what people believe and have faith in---he can claim to dismiss it as hogwash, but because it exists to him, it is real to him. Therefore he protests too much.

There is a huge difference in religion and faith, religion and spiritual condition and faith. Religion is something believed regardless of source or mindset good and bad. Believing God and belonging to Jesus Christ on the other hand is an entirely spiritual relationship. It's only provable to those who are part of the Body of Christ because of walking by faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Scriptures speaks of these things, which again means gaining understanding by faith, which is why so many miss the mark.

1 Corinthians 2:9-14 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Not a surprise that scoffers come along, because they have no understanding or grounding in Scriptural Truth or faith.

"you shouldn't go forcing it down other people's throats... "

I always love critics making that type of statement. It's so hypocritical. Because I haven't personally gone out and tried to force anyone to believe what I believe. Yet I suspect these characters came to your page and spouted their spew and fully expect people to applaud or agree. That they somehow have it allll figured out because they think when you believe Christ and walk in faith you somehow check your brain at the door, are mindless and basically involved in a mindcontrol cult. Those do exist. Just as secular humanism is the foundation for curriculum and thought pretty much world wide, to 'shove it down' the children's and adults throats. One merely has to read the theory behind it to understand that. The much used saying the last few years, 'the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world' and 'it takes a village to raise a child''--why? because if you allow other than secular humanism's agenda, the free thinking people of faith---that's the issue---the people of faith will raise their children to follow their spiritual beliefs, instead of that of the government imposed secular beliefs.

All in all it's that 'religion' that is being promoted as not really being a religion, that is forced upon all in one way or another, unless one has the faith and courage to stand up and say no to it, and yes to abiding in Christ. That's the courage true Christians have and have had over the centuries. It's people like Steve who accept the status quo of his 'religion' that are lacking in many things.

Look how many believers were persecuted and killed for their faith over the years...never denying our Lord. That isn't fear based beliefs. That's heart, soul and mind beliefs, filled with courage because of love of and faith in Jesus Christ. Being willing to put it all to the test...and passing that test.

Good points Mary.

"Simply by convincing you to give your power away to something outside yourself, religion will condition you to be weaker, more docile, and easier to control. Religions actively promote this weakening process as if it were beneficial, commonly branding it with the word faith. What they’re actually promoting is submission."

The problem with thinking one has a great power in themselves is that it makes the person self serving and self focused and well, selfish. It's kind of funny to consider that when Christians are to be the epitome of the model citizen, keeping the laws of the land, being at peace with others, etc, showing the love for others in what we say and do, and yet that's considered being weaker more docile and easier to control. Control by whom? The government? Secular humanists? False teachers/leadership--definitely an issue for those not walking by faith and not grounded in the Word.

Christians are called to be 'soldiers of the cross'. It's about spiritual issues, and it's about going against the grain of the masses, and standing firm in faith on what one believes. It's swimming upstream when everyone else is going the otherway. Taking the narrow path instead of the wide road so easily traveled by the 'sheep' aka masses of people who have no faith in God.

Faith and no courage? Hardly. If that was the case, no one would even know Christians exist, as they would be wimpy little mice, afraid of criticism and people's disdain. How sad is that, that people like Steve, think that talk is the way to treat others. And people of faith and who hold deep beliefs are the problem in this world?

John 15:17-23 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23. He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

Matthew 5:38-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So we pray for people like Steve and his buddies, and hope that God will open their understanding and give them true faith, authored by Christ; instead of faith and belief in a false religion called secular humanism and the bogus idea that believing one's self is all one needs. It seems the harshest critics are the one's desparately wanting and needing what they so vocally claim they reject.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

[infinitelove]

Its as if today in 2012; religion is Christianity and Christianity is religion. We can't mold Jesus in who we want him to be, we have to conform to his image. The gospels, tell exactly what most people in this world DON'T want to hear. Jesus says forgive those that hurt you, don't follow the world and what it does, money isn't the #1 objective in this life, crucify your flesh, let go of your pride, stop sinning, etc. No shame in following the real Jesus in the bible, he's the only way to life.

-Religion says do this and do that, set of rules. Following traditions of man/self. Satan has been doing everything possible to fool, desensitize the masses into not accepting Jesus as our savior.

[mjmselim]

When I think of religion as what people believe or practice or worship in whatever way beyond themselves or above their state, I find myself thinking of Paul and James speaking of what the Lord said to the Samaritan woman who in ignorance attached herself to a doctrine of God located in some special spot or way. Man knows God in fact, since in Him we live and move and have our being, as Paul preached. But man long ago left the truth and the knowledge of the truth, and has bound himself to notions, as in Job, passed down and about without any rule or measure of what is or is not. Men hostile to God and His Christ are opposed to His people, and will naturally speak nonsense and falsify others' faith and way. Friendship of this world even within religion is in conflict with God's Spirit and truth. I cannot, though I once did, judge religion in such a harsh way, supposing it was religion, that bond, that was defective, although it surely is, but rather that as James teaches that a man, or woman, being religious, need to be bridled in heart, that from it may flow a pure and undefiled way of living towards others, especially those needing help and love. The religious outcome is unworldly in the very things that give us and others the cause to speak so strongly against religion.

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain. Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.