Spit out the Bones .........

[sheep wrecked]

(01-10-2009 12:25 AM)strefanash Wrote:  Those who do throw out the baby with the bath water lwill look at the lamentable lives of us christians and conclude that the whole gospel is a crock, an absurdity, and nothing but fantasy or an excuse for tyrranizing one's fellows. That is to say unbelievers' rejecting christ because of us is a classic example of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I don't think that the analogy works in this case. Christianity is not the baby. True Christianity is the Gospel of Christ - untainted, unable to become corrupted - because it remains truth.

Man can "present" a skewed version of the Gospel, but man can never impinge on salvation itself - which is the true foundation of Christianity.

Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brothers.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no fickleness, neither shadow of turning.

Quote:put it this way. A preacher affirms the divinity of christ, but then preaches word of faith, latter rain and prosperity doctrine.

Are we to refuse to distinguish his true statement as to the divinity of christ from his heresies and then deny the divinty of christ because this preacher affirmed it?

Yes, we can dismiss him completely, for he errs in his theology. His Christ is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible, but another Jesus. Any teaching that appears to be "truth" is not because the true Gospel is not being preached. This is what both Jesus and Paul warned us about.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Another way of reading this is that many shall come in Jesus' Name saying that He is the Christ and shall deceive many - which I believe is the dual reading of the text. It is a double warning.

2Co 11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.

I could get into the whole origin of the charis/pentecostal movement, but it's a pretty deep subject - suffice it to say, that Charles Parham who created both denominations, denied the Deity of Christ, was a mason, and KKK member. This is the "tree" from which charis was birthed. Therefore; according to Jesus - it can only bring forth evil fruit.

Quote:If the answer is no we have applied the dictum "dont throw out the baby with the bath water". Or is it the case that because most heretics in the circles we move in affirm the divinity of christ that Christ is in fact not God the Son?

As I pointed out earlier with Christianity, the argument would be even more relevant with Christ. He is sinless, perfect, without blemish and untainted. He is not the baby, as he cannot get "dirty" or "slimed" up. That people try, is not indicative of who He is and what He did. He is above all human and demonic efforts to do so.

[Vic]

Hey Stref

The problem is Stref, is that the "baby" is Christ and the Word of God. It isn't Christianity perse. Because too many things under the banner of Christianity are not of Christ. You know that yourself. And Christ does not belong in the teachings of another gospel and another Jesus. He does not belong included with occult swill while claiming He would approve. That is what I take it to mean within the context of Christianity. It might mean other things in the secular world. But for Christians--if a Christian is going to claim a secular saying---it needs to abide to the Word of God, our standard for Truth. If it cannot stand that scrutiny, I don't believe we need to incorparate it as a Christian truth. You might think that is legalistic, but in reality, when we put on the whole armor of God (ephesians 6)--our sword is the word of God.

Eph 6:16-17
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

So just as I stated in my article--a little leaven--a little occult phrasing, word faith etc--corrupts the whole loaf--all the beliefs become permeated with the false--it changes beliefs and understandings, and therefore is not sound. All the while claiming to be giving the truth of the Scriptures, and they do not.

The Word of God stands on its own merit. It doesn't need a bath. Neither does Christ.

[strefanash]

Then you really must reject EVERYTHING I say. For being riddled with unbelief, which leaven corrupts all, I believe very little of what in fact I say on these lists. And why do I not believe these things? because i do not in spontaneity love ands liberty live these things

If you dont reject EVERYTHING *I* say you are inconsistently applying your own principle.

And the fallacy of ad hominem still applies as a fallacy, as does the equivocal fallacy of shifting between two senses of the meaning of truth, that of propositional content, and christ the person. As is the fallacy of denying abusus non tolit usum. Your thought propounds these fallacies

under your logic, if you understand the pervasive inward nature of sin you cannot listen to ANYBODY, unless they are perfect. and that includes yourself.

Have you faced the horror of that one? have you thrown out or tried to throw out or felt obliged to throw out all your own beliefs because you were aware of your own carnal mindedness.

I did, and committal to a psych ward was the end result

Legalism of thought, and that is what you are advocating, of this kind is extremelty dangerous. with it, if you apply your own princiuple consistently you cut yourself off from knowing anything at all, and the damage of that one (i still remember with blank horror that terrifying morning when i concluded that i could know nothing at all) is still with me

Put it this way, having had a history of "mental illness," having been diagnosed as a schizophrenic, the ONLY thing that got me out of this was God REASONING with me.

I cannot countenance such irrationality as you espouse, for i once held it and it devoured my own mind, because i did it with all rigour. No half measures for me, I was ever the rigourist

I am a firm believer in pure reason and logic, because without it i would be dead and damned

---

Strefanash earlier: put it this way. A preacher affirms the divinity of christ, but then preaches word of faith, latter rain and prosperity doctrine. Are we to refuse to distinguish his true statement as to the divinity of christ from his heresies and then deny the divinty of christ because this preacher affirmed it?

REPLY
Yes, we can dismiss him completely, for he errs in his theology. His Christ is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible, but another Jesus. Any teaching that appears to be "truth" is not because the true Gospel is not being preached. This is what both Jesus and Paul warned us about.

Stref NOW.

this is an equivocal fallacy (namely one word is used in two different senses but the distinction is missed, invalidating the logic of the line of reason offered. I said can we dismiss the divinity of christ befause of abuse, you said yes WE CAN DISMISS THE PREACHER.

the divinity of christ and a preacher abusing this are two different things.

What are the secret sins of your motivation which if they exist must of necessity permeate why you post here? Are you so pure as to have none? the lord showed me some of mine just today.

If my inner sin is pervasive and permeats all then you must dismiss me completely or in logic repudiate your position.

you must in logic distinguish between the truth of proposition and the truth of the person who is christ. to fail to do so is the equivocal fallacy.

as regards what for example a mormon means by the divinity of christ i distinguish what he means from the true meaning of it.

Ill say it again: i am sensitive about logic for without it i am a schizophrenic not far from madness, not far from despair

[sheep wrecked]

(01-11-2009 05:33 AM)strefanash Wrote:  What are the secret sins of your motivation which if they exist must of necessity permeate why you post here? Are you so pure as to have none? the lord showed me some of mine just today.

My motivation is Biblical truth. If one preaches against Christ, I have no use for that preacher/teacher/speaker. So, in order to listen to someone who under the auspices of "teaching", then I must research/question their "platform"/theology/teachings/doctrines and their displayed or hidden agenda for doing so. The agenda becomes clear dependent on their theologies. If that agenda is against scripture, the baby is as dirty as the bathwater ........ why should I keep the "baby"?

Let me give you an example - the Word of Faith preacher teaches that Jesus died spiritually, had to go to hell and fight satan literally in order to save from sin, took on the nature of satan [Christ's "brother"], wrestle satan for the keys of death and hell, listening to the mocking of the other demons, and then finally was "reborn" by God [and therefore; not God, but "a" god]. Why should I listen to anything that preacher or any other preacher has to say in that venue - even if he preaches the gospel? Is that the Gospel of Christ? In this case the baby is as dirty as the bathwater and I most certainly have, and will continue to throw the baby out ---- for the baby is not the Gospel, but the doctrine that this denomination is grounded upon.

[Vic]

Steve, the problem I see is that because you don't believe the Bible, and as you said, have no need of it, you are reasoning in a different way than I am. So we may not be thinking in the same way or understanding with the same words.

The Scriptures tell me this:

1. Jesus is the Word made flesh.

2. All Scripture was given for our edification, encouragment, growth, rebuke, corrections and such. It has nothing to do with "worship" of the bible as you have stated previously. It is our source of truth and a tool for us to use.

3. Without the Word I have no source of truth except my own reasoning and we know that we do not have any wisdom in ourselves that is worth anything.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

4. It is by use of the Word of God that we can learn to discern between truth and error; good and evil.

Heb 5:12-14
(12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
(14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

5. When we believe Christ, we enter into a relationship where He leads us into truth, and understanding of His word, His will for us and it is the Holy Spirit that opens our understanding to His truths.

6. If we advocate for wisdom of the world or our own "revelation" of truth, that means whatever we think is true trumps the scriptures---and I reject that totally.

7. God did not make it impossible to know Him or understand the things within the Scriptures, including how to live for Him. But it starts with faith and believing Him.

8. When we grow in Christ, so does our understanding of spiritual things, includng the Scriptures. That is the only way to know how to follow HIm--otherwise it's real easy to fall off the straight and narrow path--we are to follow Christ and Christ alone. When we interact with others it has to be always with the knowledge that each of us is on that path---if we believe Him. The problem arises when another gospel and another Jesus is presented as truth--when they are leading people away from Christ.

What does Paul say about those who bring another gospel or another Jesus ---

2Co 11:3-4
(3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Gal 1:6-10
(6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

You said Steve, that the things your write you don't believe, and yet you battle as one who believes what they are advocating. Everyone of us is weak without Christ. Everyone of us sins. Everyone of us falls flat on our face if we try to do things on our own. When we belong to Jesus Christ, that is when we know that in our weakness we are made strong in Christ.--not of ourselves--of Him.

Your experiences have left you believing that no one can really be living for Christ, and yet, if that were so--we are all lost. It's not based on our abilities---it's about faith and trust in Him.

When I evaluate things, it is always a comparison of is it Scripturally true. When someone says that something is a sound doctrine--then it needs to be evaluated to the Word of God. There is no other option for us. To not do so leaves us open to all manner of falsehoods and partial truths. That doesn't mean I have it all figured out, or that I may misunderstand something in the Scriptures. But it doesn't turn me inside out wondering--because I know what I have believed and Who, and I know that when I err, He will show me thru conviction of the heart, reading the Scriptures and allowing Him to teach me through them, and then studying even factual things to prove or disprove what someone may call true.

I don't see it as being any other way. I have been serving Christ for over 35 yrs, have had deep depression several times--where blackness enveloped and my cry to God seemed unanswered and it became a test of faith to know that He did in fact hear me. You see, we all go through our own trials of fire and its how we come out that matters. Believing and trusting God or not. I believe Him, every verse in the Scriptures and I believe the relationship I have with Christ. When I write something it is because I believe it is true from the Scriptures--I can't write it if I don't believe it. I really don't know how you do it, if you don't believe what you write.

This forum is for a discussion on all manner of things, including our walk with Christ, struggles and such. So that you don't feel that you should not speak--I would suggest you keep doing what you are doing here, and when we disagree--as in this thread---maybe we can all learn something.

[strefanash]

My motivation is Biblical truth. If one preaches against Christ, I have no use for that preacher/teacher/speaker. So, in order to listen to someone who under the auspices of "teaching", then I must research/question their "platform"/theology/teachings/doctrines and their displayed or hidden agenda for doing so. The agenda becomes clear dependent on their theologies. If that agenda is against scripture, the baby is as dirty as the bathwater ........ why should I keep the "baby"? Sign0137

Are you sure your motivation is Biblical truth? I was, once, until the Lord made it clear what my real motivations are.

I never said that i would NOT dismiss a heretical teacher. you appear to have misunderstood me on this. What i did say is that i would not dismiss a true doctrine just because it was abused by a heretical teacher?

Is this too abstruse to understand?

you still show confusion between persons and propositions.

I would also reject a heretical preacher, I did it when i left my old church, i did it when i flatly refuse to read the trash that comes out of "christian" book shops and radio . I do it when i refuse to support the street preaching in my home town.

You and Vic have misunderstood the dictum "dont throw out the baby with the bath water.

And as for my mentioning my unbelief, well that was a colossal tactical error on my part. When will i learn that admitting my sins to the people of God will NOT have themm look with grecognition at a work of God's grace.

Vic, you have misrepresented my expression of unbelief. I intellectually affirm all these things i advocate, but belief in the biblical sense is more than assent, and i have been forced to see how my fruit and life iundicate faith or not.

Have you never been convicted by the Spirit of unbelief?

my line here is not an example of the idea that you are reasoning according to scripture and i am not. you are arguing fallaciously

and as for your saying i have no need of the Bible,

SHOULD I BE INSULTED??????????????????

if i have been so greviously misrepresented by people i hold to be commonly decent, as opposed to the kind of fundamentalist brutes who punched my lights out, what really is the point

---

Steve, the problem I see is that because you don't believe the Bible, and as you said, have no need of it, you are reasoning in a different way than I am. So we may not be thinking in the same way or understanding with the same words.

Stref:
you have completely failed to distinguish a good faith admission of the sin of unbelief on my part from a principled, deliberate and considered denial of doctrine.

anbd of course it is self flattering as it assumes that your thought is biblical, when i have seen this kind of rationalization time and time again, and even done it often enough myself

As for writing what i do not believe, i hold the biblical definition of belief, and know i do not measure up to it. where is your depth of insight into the inner nature of sin if you have been serving god for 35 years? I have the perception enough to be aware of the difference between what i am and what should be AS REGARDS BELIEF as well as conduct, and when i speak of it it is as if i came to you speaking in Russian. Blank incomprehension. What are my grounds for believing you have such awareness

I admit my sins and then get them thrown back in my face, and i am to entertain the notion that your faith is worth more than mine?

Black depression? that is unbelief, pride, fear. As long as we are full of it we are walking in the flesh, and backslidden. But in his mercy as i cried to him he reached to me again, and does so daily. Can you claim this or is your God actually someone quite distant? Shall we compare notes as to the depth of the horror of the depression? a long slow road of repentance of sin has been the solution, and the person that did it was a Spirit.

And you who claim to believe the bible refuse to entertain the notion that the Holy Spirit could have long conversations with a totally tormented child like me and lead him out of madness before it killed him?

---

for the record i will define what i mean by belief.

Awarenes of truth is knowlege.

belief is ACCEPTANCE of it, whole hearted acceptance of it. and it is shown by ones fruit.

If your life is super abundant (you know the verses) , if you have the peace that surpasses understanding, joy spontaously flowing out of your being like living waters, a confidence that is therefore unflappable, then you believe these doctgrines.

If you life is not this abundant, then you dont.

MY life is not that abundant therefore i will hold, in accordance with teh law of God, which is there to discern my sin, that I do not believe these things either. But i wll not try to keep the LAw by force of will thinking that will remedy the situation, for it will not. This is not its proper purpose.

Having as one who expressly rejects the Bible, (spot the irony) put forward this defintion of faith (faith without works, works without love etc) I challenge you to refute it from the Book i claim i do not need and do not regard as the word of God (again spot the irony - and i have to say spot the irony because if i dont tell you to you will miss it

[Vic]

Quote:You and Vic have misunderstood the dictum "dont throw out the baby with the bath water.

Actually Steve, that is completely inaccurate. As my article showed the research of the origins and intent of the meaning. I reject it as sound doctrine. It is not Scripture. It cannot stand the test of Scripture. Therefore it is a secular saying. It is secular and worldly wisdom. It is not worth presenting as a Scriptural truth. Nor is it worth fighting for as if it were a Scriptural truth.

There is more than enough wisdom within the Word of God to find things to consider and study. We do not need to add to the Word of God by incorporating such nonsense as that saying along with many other similar things and defend them as if they were the Gospel.

1Pe 1:23-25
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
(24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
(25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

We are not called to incorporate worldly ideals and "wisdom" of the world into the truth of the Scriptures. We are in fact called to reject the wisdom of the world.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Quote:Black depression? that is unbelief, pride, fear. As long as we are full of it we are walking in the flesh, and backslidden. But in his mercy as i cried to him he reached to me again, and does so daily. Can you claim this or is your God actually someone quite distant? Shall we compare notes as to the depth of the horror of the depression? a long slow road of repentance of sin has been the solution, and the person that did it was a Spirit.

Are you so used to wearing your experiences and sin like a badge that you missed that I was merely letting you know that I too have experienced the blackness of depression? Did I need to do a point by point of what it was like? I don't think so. Did I know it was spiritual---absolutely--and guess what---I went to a pastor for help--and he told me to go teach Sunday School. I knew it was spiritual and he did not. Go figure.

I gave some of my testimony on my website---and expand a bit more about those things. When I Was A Child > My point was that when we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Our sins are removed as far as the east is from the west the Psalm says. So to dwell continually on them is to be bound to them. We are called to forget the things from the past and press towards the mark--which is Jesus Christ.

Are you so devoid of Scriptural knowledge that you think that you are the only one to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? And sweet communion with Him?

Do you not know that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers and is given to teach us--THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD. That is the standard of truth for us. Not a Voice.

You pride yourself on your intellect and wisdom and knowledge---please don't deny that--it comes through. Yet--you lack total logic with this Voice. Why? Because it gives you what you want to hear.

It keeps you focused on your sins instead of the forgiveness you have in Jesus Christ. It keeps you believing you are unworthy---despite the Scriptures that tell us that we have the righteousness of Christ in us when we believe and repent.

2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

What you seem to have failed to realize is that each and every person that accepts Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, has an equal high calling and that is to serve the Lord Jesus Christ and love God with all our hearts, minds and souls, and that He loves us and we are special to God because of Christ.

Your Voice tells you it is totally teaching Scripture and in total lack of logic and disobedience to the Scriptures---you agree with that so you don't have need of the Scriptures-and you have said you don't because you don't read them. Therefore---one must conclude despite the many contradictions -- you don't really believe the Scriptures because they are clear.

We are called to Study to show ourselves approved, a workman that need not be ashamed--yet you refuse to study the Word because the Voice gives you the direction you desire, the opposite information at times and it is so "pure". You make excuse because of your past--yet in Christ we are to be free of those things---a new creature. Our focus is to be Jesus Christ, yet yours is continually about your past, your sins, you. That is what is coming across Steve, intended or not.

Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: ...
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

In case you miss it Steve, I do understand the irony of your statements, the feelings of conviction of sin, the feeling of unworthiness before God, and so on. But you also contradict your own statements, and also contradict the Scriptures, which on the one hand you say you believe and on the other show that you don't read them or believe them. It's difficult to know the Author or understand His teachings when you don't read His Book.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

[Vic]

Steve, You said you are unlike others and don't have faith

Quote:I am a firm believer in pure reason and logic, because without it i would be dead and damned;..I intellectually affirm all these things i advocate, but belief in the biblical sense is more than assent, and i have been forced to see how my fruit and life iundicate faith or not.

Quote: ...Do i want to live for Him? NO! do i trust him? NO! Am I believing? NO! Do I even want to hear from him NO (became aware of this just yesterday) Do i listen to him? NO, i change the subject continually, ignore him, twist his words.... I have some kind of relationship with a Spirit being who canot be my imagination. ... through a conversation that has lasted over 25 years? When i panic when he speaks he calms me down, the way any book can never do

... he turned what i was terrified of into something that awes me, namely the imperium of the Tsar of Heaven. I am drawn back to him not by faith as commonly taught, but by fascination and by sober knowlege that my need will kill me, literally, if not met. ... i must have some kind of amenability to His voice, not that that means i dont fight it tooth and nail. If that amenablity is what you mean by faith...

I am long passed holding to scriptures in a death grip. The Spirit that I am talking to is having me admit that all this is legalistic and he is bringing to the surface my rebellion and unbelief ...

Why isnt he telling me to read the Bible? because he knows that i am so terrorized that it does no good.

[http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=54&pid=675#pid675 post #6]

Let me ask---would the Holy Spirit say it is teaching Scripture--and then teach against the Scripture and overturn them?

Logic and the Scriptures say no.

Let's see why.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jas 1:15-18
(15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
(16) Do not err, my beloved brethren.
(17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
(18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

1Co 1:19-20
(19) For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.(20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?...26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:29-31
(29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
(30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
(31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Jas 1:2-8
(2) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (3) Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
(4) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
(7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
(8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God does not lead His people away from Him or the Truth of His Word. God says the natural man cannot receive or understand the things of God. God promises that He will give understanding to those who belong to Him. It is a promise which He cannot and will not break. God does not give truth AND error at the same time. There is no error in Him.

John 17: 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The proof of our love for Him is in keeping His Word. Not rejecting or overturning it. It is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit that gives understanding and correction and sound doctrine, all through the Scriptures. To deny that is to deny the Word of God.

2 Timothy 2:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is the Word of God the Standard that ALL God's people must adhere to? It's not about feelings or opinion. It is about His Truth which does not change.

God's standard remains the same for all of us, because He is not a respector of persons. We all are subject to the Word of God. And truth from God does not hold any lies or hypocrisy.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

His will is that we obey His Word. His Will be done, by us not sinning and being holy as He is Holy, by full dependence on Christ. You are waiting for 'the voice' to give direction, when God wants you to go by HIS WORD.

Until you deal with these things, according to the Word of God, according to truth, you will not be free from the past or the deceptions or delusion that is part of the Voice. It's that clear according to the Scriptures--but you need to want that.

God calls us to a change in our lives, which reflects Christ. We're to use sound judgment and temperance, self control and such, based on the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit changes us to reflect Christ more and more. Every thought is to come into obedience eventually...that is the goal. And when we err, we are to repent and get out of the falsehood or wrong choices. Because that shows obedience to God's Word.

2 Cor 10: 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

No peace, no joy, no resting or abiding in Christ, which seems to be what you experience daily, Steve?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The issues are about TRUTH. It's about whether what we believe can stand the test of Scripture.

And my challenge to you Steve, is prove by the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit would tell you or teach you things contrary to the Scriptures.