Will God Say "Just Kidding" about Eternity?

[Mary]

http://www.seekgod.ca/eternity.htm

I have for some time been pondering on Hell - not necessarily from the perspective of eternal, but more on the meaning and reason for Hell. Although an interest (for various reasons) I have not done a deep Biblical study on the subject, but since a friend recently re-awakened my interest by introducing me to Evangelical Universalism. Anyone who reads this forum will know that I am convinced that universalism is heretical and non-biblical. However, sharing with my friend, and reading Thomas Talbott's book The Inescapable Love of God, has made me check myself, and look long and hard at what I thought I believed, and what I actually Believe.

I contacted Vicky about it, and she kindly linked me to her article, which I shared with my friend, who would like to discuss the article here.

Before we get into the discussion, I'd like to just present this quote from Jude: vs 20-25

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen

[Solo Christo]

I'm not sure what the best way to engage with Will God Say "Just Kidding" about Eternity? is, so I'm just recording my comments/questions as I'm reading through it (on my forum, but I'm copy them here to make it easier). i.e. the downside of my approach will be that some of my comments/questions will probably be already addressed by Vic further down...

Anyway, I'll post a few paragraphs at a time in order to give people the opportunity to engage with my comments/questions if they wish.

Vic Wrote:Recently I had a correspondence with an individual which began with comments about the ecumenical movement. The person, who remains anonymous, I'll call Joe.

Joe stated, "The main ecumenical movement that you will see in the days ahead is that toward the idea that Jesus Christ is the Lord of all. Therefore salvation has been made, and will again be made available to all men. If that makes the word ecumenical a bad word, then we as Christians had better evaluate if our will lines up with the will of God. He is willing that none should perish, and all should come to repentance..."

A little unsure what Joe means "will again be made available", as I believe salvation has never stopped being available to all. Also whilst I'm fairly optimistic about the number of people who will come to see "Christ as Lord" before Judgement Day, I suspect it won't be everyone.

Vic Wrote:There is to be unity in the Body of Christ—not a joining with ungodly and unbiblical beliefs or people. That is the difference between unity and ecumenicalism. Ecumenicalism is not a Biblical concept.

I think we all have our fair share of "ungodly and unbiblical beliefs" & part of being the "Body of Christ" is to help one another grow in maturity. However, I do acknowledge it's difficult knowing where to draw the boundaries, especially in regards to doctrine - none of us want to be led astray or to have our loved ones lead astray.

Vic Wrote:The fact that 'Joe' believes—‘salvation has been made, and will again be made available to all men’ ---suggests that he and many others believe that people have not had the gospel and chance for salvation before now. That is not only a Pentecostal belief, but is found in many groups who would agree that the gospel is only now being presented as it should be. Joe's thinking also suggests that those who have died prior to now—don’t have to face hell as “He is willing that none should perish, and all should come to repentance ‘” To not perish means to know Christ. However, that contradicts the stated belief that salvation was somewhat lacking or unavailable until now.

Sorry I'm a bit unsure about the logic here, I do think some people haven't had the gospel presented to them yet but I don't think that means no one will face hell.

Vic Wrote:No one comes to the Father except through Christ, hence in order to not spend eternity in hell, one must have known the truth of Jesus Christ and accepted Him as Lord and Savior.

I think that no one comes to the Father except through Christ, hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell), one must know the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior. i.e. I believe people anywhere can come to Christ (by the help of the Spirit).

Vic Wrote:The Scriptures say in 2 Corinthians 4: 3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

"if"... but even if it's not a hypothetical statement by Paul, I'd say that even those blinded by satan can be given sight by God.

Vic Wrote:God provided salvation for all—His hearts desire is that all mankind would accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord—but most will not know Him. Most reject the truth that all have sinned and need His Salvation. People have been created for honor and dishonor. People make choices about eternity.

This is a intriguing paragraph because of the mix of determinism ("provided", "His hearts desire", "have been created for" ) & freewill ("will not know Him", "Most reject", "People make choices") I guess some sort-of Compatibilism might untangle it, hopefully this is clarified later in the article.

Vic Wrote:Romans 9: 17 " For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

”if”... but again even if it's not a hypothetical statement by Paul, just because God needs to harden, destruct, or remold some vessels, doesn’t mean they have no hope of salvation later on. From memory there’s even a passage which talks of remolding for a positive purpose - Talbott addresses Romans 9 really well in “The Inescapable Love of God”.

[Mary]

[quote= I think we all have our fair share of "ungodly and unbiblical beliefs" & part of being the "Body of Christ" is to help one another grow in maturity. However, I do acknowledge it's difficult knowing where to draw the boundaries, especially in regards to doctrine - none of us want to be led astray or to have our loved ones lead astray.[/quote]

I've been a Christian for 42 years. The basic knowledge and beliefs that I gained as a child, that God is the Creator, that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that He gave His Son to take death, from and give eternal life for "whosoever believes in Him" is the truth for me to this day. I learned that I could trust God's Word; that I could trust Him to continue to give me understanding, even if it takes time. So over the years I have learned many things, but especially to keep coming back to the Bible, and to be wary of anything that might lead me away from Christ.

[Mary]

Joe's comments (quoted by Vic) are based 2 Peter 3 vs 9. - A verse that I love and found some years ago, and in fact what started me on "re-thinking hell" . But what does the whole chapter say? In summary I understand it to say that: scoffers will come and say Where is he, what's taking Him so long? Nothing has changed, everything is just the same as it was in the beginning. But they ignore the fact that He created the world out of water with a word, and with a word destroyed it with water. He's now storing/preserving it by His Word until He comes to judge and destroy utterly ungodly men, when He will burn it up so that it all melts away. It may seem like a long time to you, but time to God is not like time to us. He is patient, and what seems like delay to you, is not delay to him; so be ready. He could come at anytime, and when he does it will surprise you. You'll need to be blameless, pure; in His peace, waiting for him. Consider His patience, 'delaying'; longsuffering; as a chance to accept his salvation; because He wants all to come to repentance, he is not willing that any should be destroyed. It's like He's saying - "hurry up, come quickly, I'm waiting for you, but come now, be ready, don't be found with the ungodly when I return, which could be any day now".

[Vic]

(06-18-2012 07:49 AM)Mary Wrote:  [quote= I think we all have our fair share of "ungodly and unbiblical beliefs" & part of being the "Body of Christ" is to help one another grow in maturity. However, I do acknowledge it's difficult knowing where to draw the boundaries, especially in regards to doctrine - none of us want to be led astray or to have our loved ones lead astray.

I've been a Christian for 42 years. The basic knowledge and beliefs that I gained as a child, that God is the Creator, that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that He gave His Son to take death, from and give eternal life for "whosoever believes in Him" is the truth for me to this day. I learned that I could trust God's Word; that I could trust Him to continue to give me understanding, even if it takes time. So over the years I have learned many things, but especially to keep coming back to the Bible, and to be wary of anything that might lead me away from Christ.
[/quote]

Except I have only been a Christian 41 years And wasn't raised in a Christian home, didn't know Christ until a teenager. What I have learned is what Mary said also, and that the Bible is the standard we are to live by and test all things too, and being the Sword of the Spirit, it can stand alone without man's writings/speculations to give understanding because all understanding of His Word comes from the Holy Spirit; only Christ can open our understanding. Plus I have learned that some of the 'best' deceptions are wrapped within a package of some truth. Discerning between truth and error comes from continual use of and dependence on our Lord and His Word.

Hebrews 5:8-14 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10. Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Corinthians 2:7-16 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[Vic]

(06-17-2012 10:10 PM)Solo Christo Wrote:  I'm not sure what the best way to engage with Will God Say "Just Kidding" about Eternity? is, so I'm just recording my comments/questions as I'm reading through it (on my forum, but I'm copy them here to make it easier). i.e. the downside of my approach will be that some of my comments/questions will probably be already addressed by Vic further down...

Anyway, I'll post a few paragraphs at a time in order to give people the opportunity to engage with my comments/questions if they wish.

Vic Wrote:Recently I had a correspondence with an individual which began with comments about the ecumenical movement. The person, who remains anonymous, I'll call Joe.

Joe stated, "The main ecumenical movement that you will see in the days ahead is that toward the idea that Jesus Christ is the Lord of all. Therefore salvation has been made, and will again be made available to all men. If that makes the word ecumenical a bad word, then we as Christians had better evaluate if our will lines up with the will of God. He is willing that none should perish, and all should come to repentance..."

A little unsure what Joe means "will again be made available", as I believe salvation has never stopped being available to all. Also whilst I'm fairly optimistic about the number of people who will come to see "Christ as Lord" before Judgement Day, I suspect it won't be everyone.

Vic Wrote:There is to be unity in the Body of Christ—not a joining with ungodly and unbiblical beliefs or people. That is the difference between unity and ecumenicalism. Ecumenicalism is not a Biblical concept.

I think we all have our fair share of "ungodly and unbiblical beliefs" & part of being the "Body of Christ" is to help one another grow in maturity. However, I do acknowledge it's difficult knowing where to draw the boundaries, especially in regards to doctrine - none of us want to be led astray or to have our loved ones lead astray.

Actually sound doctrine is available and found within the Scriptures. Our understanding increases as we grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. To me it's not a quandry of knowing where to draw boundaries on doctrine because it was all written there for our learning and understanding.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

The issue as I see it, is knowing the Scriptures well enough to discern if what is presented as a doctrine can actually stand the test of Scripture--meaning all scripture that might be affecting a doctrine. Not just one side of a subject or limiting so verses are taken out of context. Mary's analysis of that Peter passage is an example of taking the whole of the intent of the passage rather than just viewing one or two verses and thinking that's the whole message. Just because someone says they are of Christ does not mean they are, or they have sound doctrine which can stand the test of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:2-11 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Vic Wrote:The fact that 'Joe' believes—‘salvation has been made, and will again be made available to all men’ ---suggests that he and many others believe that people have not had the gospel and chance for salvation before now. That is not only a Pentecostal belief, but is found in many groups who would agree that the gospel is only now being presented as it should be. Joe's thinking also suggests that those who have died prior to now—don’t have to face hell as “He is willing that none should perish, and all should come to repentance ‘” To not perish means to know Christ. However, that contradicts the stated belief that salvation was somewhat lacking or unavailable until now.

Sorry I'm a bit unsure about the logic here, I do think some people haven't had the gospel presented to them yet but I don't think that means no one will face hell.

JUst as was stated, Alex, many believe that the truth of the gospel was not around since the apostles walked the earth and these people are the ones who now hold the truth, that all the generations since X were without the gospel until such as the pentecostals/HR etc who hold that belief or whoever...now states people are now finally able to have the true gospel given to them. THerefore what Joe and other advocates are saying is basically universalism because if people didn't have this 'true gospel' until now they didn't know they should know Christ, therefore they wouldn't be guilty of rejecting Christ and therefore wouldn't face God's judgement and wrath and wouldn't go to hell.

Vic Wrote:No one comes to the Father except through Christ, hence in order to not spend eternity in hell, one must have known the truth of Jesus Christ and accepted Him as Lord and Savior.

I think that no one comes to the Father except through Christ, hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell), one must know the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior. i.e. I believe people anywhere can come to Christ (by the help of the Spirit).

Yes people anywhere could come to Christ but not all do. In fact most do not. The narrow road versus the wide road...and few find it as Jesus said. No one can come to Christ unless the Father first draws them, and people do say no to Christ. Making salvation available and a gift for all mankind, being longsuffering and waiting for as many as would/will come to Him is part of God's mercy and grace. That does not mean all people want Him.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Vic Wrote:The Scriptures say in 2 Corinthians 4: 3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

"if"... but even if it's not a hypothetical statement by Paul, I'd say that even those blinded by satan can be given sight by God.

Of course they can be delivered, and no one here that I know of has ever stated otherwise. Otherwise none of us could ever know Christ. We were all children of disobedience, born into sin, and without hope.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 5:1-11 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2. And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Vic Wrote:God provided salvation for all—His hearts desire is that all mankind would accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord—but most will not know Him. Most reject the truth that all have sinned and need His Salvation. People have been created for honor and dishonor. People make choices about eternity.

This is a intriguing paragraph because of the mix of determinism ("provided", "His hearts desire", "have been created for" ) & freewill ("will not know Him", "Most reject", "People make choices") I guess some sort-of Compatibilism might untangle it, hopefully this is clarified later in the article.

Apparently you may not be familiar with the many facets of God, His purposes and Scripture. I can provide Scriptures for each of those statements, so if you need it untangled I will do just that. "Compatibilism" -now that's a new one for me.... will work on this and the rest a bit later. Gotta run for now.

Vic Wrote:Romans 9: 17 " For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

”if”... but again even if it's not a hypothetical statement by Paul, just because God needs to harden, destruct, or remold some vessels, doesn’t mean they have no hope of salvation later on. From memory there’s even a passage which talks of remolding for a positive purpose - Talbott addresses Romans 9 really well in “The Inescapable Love of God”.
[/quote]

[Lois]

I had never heard of Thomas Talbott or his book so I googled him for some insight.I went to his website and he offers some of his book there to read for free which I did so I can see where some of you are coming from.
My first thought is that there is no mention of Jesus Christ on his entire website,anywhere..at all!So what is his purpose exactly?Is it to reconcile people to God?If it is I can't tell from his website..or maybe he thinks there is no need to mention salvation or Jesus because we will all be saved in the end.We'll ALL be saved by God's love,right..or is it Jesus Christ that saves us?
So we just trust in God's love no mention of His Son on the entire website...just Talbott's musings..anyway.
I obviously don't agree with Talbott's gospel but I'm not going to go into ALL that just yet.



I have a few questions Solo Christo here you say,

Quote:I think that no one comes to the Father except through Christ, hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell), one must know the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior. i.e. I believe people anywhere can come to Christ (by the help of the Spirit).

When you say,"hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell)",are you implying that you believe that people will have the opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him while in hell?
If so,how did you come to this conclusion?

[Vic]

(06-18-2012 12:47 PM)Lois Wrote:  I had never heard of Thomas Talbott or his book so I googled him for some insight.I went to his website and he offers some of his book there to read for free which I did so I can see where some of you are coming from.
My first thought is that there is no mention of Jesus Christ on his entire website,anywhere..at all!So what is his purpose exactly?Is it to reconcile people to God?If it is I can't tell from his website..or maybe he thinks there is no need to mention salvation or Jesus because we will all be saved in the end.We'll ALL be saved by God's love,right..or is it Jesus Christ that saves us?
So we just trust in God's love no mention of His Son on the entire website...just Talbott's musings..anyway.
I obviously don't agree with Talbott's gospel but I'm not going to go into ALL that just yet.



I have a few questions Solo Christo here you say,

Quote:I think that no one comes to the Father except through Christ, hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell), one must know the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior. i.e. I believe people anywhere can come to Christ (by the help of the Spirit).

When you say,"hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell)",are you implying that you believe that people will have the opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him while in hell?
If so,how did you come to this conclusion?

Interesting on Talbott, Lois. I was just reading a blog spouting about/against him (and against Christians etc) and came across this--no source mentioned but....

Quote:...Talbott wants to claim a true skepticism of suspended belief. For him this means being open-minded. As an example, with regard to reincarnation he says “I have no settled belief one way or the other on the matter.” And in a like fashion he’s says he’s equally open to the possibility that Jesus rose from the dead as he is to the possibility that he didn’t..."

I am thinking I will be fully skeptical on anything Talbott has to say and fully suspend any belief that he has something to offer in the way of Biblically sound doctrine. I think that's how it works on suspended belief. If I can find source quotes for these topics with him, I will provide them.

1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[Mary]

2 Ti3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I am actually reading Talbott's book and am up to chapter 5. Up to now, I do not think that what he says ignores Jesus Christ, doubts his resurrection or leads the reader away from Christ. Contrary to a universalist website I found recently which denied Jesus is God. I will keep reading Talbott, and have started again to look at Romans from the beginning, as Talbott discusses and uses Romans for much of his support of his universalism.

---

What I am getting from his book is some understanding of doctrine according to a Calvinist viewpoint, Augustinian viewpoint and an Arminian viewpoint. I have not previously given this too much thought, so I think it is important that I check my beliefs are truly biblical and not based in any or bits of those worldviews.

[Solo Christo]

Mary Wrote:I've been a Christian for 42 years. The basic knowledge and beliefs that I gained as a child, that God is the Creator, that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that He gave His Son to take death, from and give eternal life for "whosoever believes in Him" is the truth for me to this day. I learned that I could trust God's Word; that I could trust Him to continue to give me understanding, even if it takes time. So over the years I have learned many things, but especially to keep coming back to the Bible, and to be wary of anything that might lead me away from Christ.

Vic Wrote:Actually sound doctrine is available and found within the Scriptures. Our understanding increases as we grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. To me it's not a quandry of knowing where to draw boundaries on doctrine because it was all written there for our learning and understanding.

The issue as I see it, is knowing the Scriptures well enough to discern if what is presented as a doctrine can actually stand the test of Scripture--meaning all scripture that might be affecting a doctrine. Not just one side of a subject or limiting so verses are taken out of context. Mary's analysis of that Peter passage is an example of taking the whole of the intent of the passage rather than just viewing one or two verses and thinking that's the whole message. Just because someone says they are of Christ does not mean they are, or they have sound doctrine which can stand the test of Scripture.

I agree that continued reading, praying, & re-reading the Bible is extremely important for Christians. I agree that it's possible to have sound doctrine & I really hope my statement of faith is. Hopefully all Christians agree on all the core things, such as the Triune God, His grace not our works, the Bible, etc.). However, I was thinking about beliefs that vary widely across Christianity (e.g. baptism, communion, worship, tithing, fasting, leadership, male-female roles, details of Creation, schooling, etc.), as much as I want to only hold correct doctrines, I've almost certainly still got some things wrong. I agree that we need to look at verses in context. I agree that not all who claim to be of Christ are of Christ.

Mary Wrote:It's like He's saying - "hurry up, come quickly, I'm waiting for you, but come now, be ready, don't be found with the ungodly when I return, which could be any day now".

I agree, I think many passages urge people to repentance/faith now, rather than later.

Vic Wrote:What I have learned is what Mary said also, and that the Bible is the standard we are to live by and test all things too, and being the Sword of the Spirit, it can stand alone without man's writings/speculations to give understanding because all understanding of His Word comes from the Holy Spirit; only Christ can open our understanding. Plus I have learned that some of the 'best' deceptions are wrapped within a package of some truth. Discerning between truth and error comes from continual use of and dependence on our Lord and His Word.

I agree the Bible is the standard to live by & test against, and that we need the Holy Spirit's help in doing both. I agree that the hardest deceptions to spot are lies mixed with true.

(Btw I really like that you support your points with Scripture & your colour coding/formatting is helpful )

Vic Wrote:JUst as was stated, Alex, many believe that the truth of the gospel was not around since the apostles walked the earth and these people are the ones who now hold the truth, that all the generations since X were without the gospel until such as the pentecostals/HR etc who hold that belief or whoever...now states people are now finally able to have the true gospel given to them. THerefore what Joe and other advocates are saying is basically universalism because if people didn't have this 'true gospel' until now they didn't know they should know Christ, therefore they wouldn't be guilty of rejecting Christ and therefore wouldn't face God's judgement and wrath and wouldn't go to hell.

I agree with you that people are wrong to say the gospel has been hidden since the days of the apostles until Pentecostalism/HR/etc.

Vic Wrote:Yes people anywhere could come to Christ but not all do. In fact most do not. The narrow road versus the wide road...and few find it as Jesus said. No one can come to Christ unless the Father first draws them, and people do say no to Christ. Making salvation available and a gift for all mankind, being longsuffering and waiting for as many as would/will come to Him is part of God's mercy and grace. That does not mean all people want Him.

I’m thinking of "anywhere" with the broadest possible scope, i.e. even hell. I agree most don't come/find before death. I agree it's only those the Father gives the Son.

Vic Wrote:Of course they can be delivered, and no one here that I know of has ever stated otherwise. Otherwise none of us could ever know Christ. We were all children of disobedience, born into sin, and without hope.

I’m glad we agree that we need to be given sight by God. However, I was thinking of God’s ability of giving people sight in hell.

Vic Wrote:Apparently you may not be familiar with the many facets of God, His purposes and Scripture. I can provide Scriptures for each of those statements, so if you need it untangled I will do just that. "Compatibilism" -now that's a new one for me.... will work on this and the rest a bit later. Gotta run for now.

I’m sure you could, however my uncertainty here is that it’s unclear how you’re interpreting/weighing the Scriptures & where you’re ending up. For example, take these 3 propositions:

(1) It is God’s will to reconcile all sinners to Himself
(2) It is within God’s power to always achieve His will
(3) Some sinners will never be reconciled to God

At face value, particularly in English translations, there’s Scripture to support all 3, however I would suggest that logically all three can’t be held together equally, so usually Arminians end up emphasising 1 & 3, Calvinists 2 & 3, and Universalists 1 & 2.

I won’t try to explain all the complexities of free will & determinism, mainly as I’m not a philosopher so I don’t fully grasp them, but also because, as far as I know, Evangelical Universalism can work wherever one falls on that spectrum.

Lois Wrote:I had never heard of Thomas Talbott or his book so I googled him for some insight.I went to his website and he offers some of his book there to read for free which I did so I can see where some of you are coming from.
My first thought is that there is no mention of Jesus Christ on his entire website,anywhere..at all!So what is his purpose exactly?Is it to reconcile people to God?If it is I can't tell from his website..or maybe he thinks there is no need to mention salvation or Jesus because we will all be saved in the end.We'll ALL be saved by God's love,right..or is it Jesus Christ that saves us?
So we just trust in God's love no mention of His Son on the entire website...just Talbott's musings..anyway.
I obviously don't agree with Talbott's gospel but I'm not going to go into ALL that just yet.

”Vic” Wrote:Interesting on Talbott, Lois. I was just reading a blog spouting about/against him (and against Christians etc) and came across this--no source mentioned but....

I count Tom as a friend & brother in Christ, he’s also a respected philosopher (not a preacher, not a theologian, not an evangelist) but not really into doing websites. Even so, when I googled “site:www.thomastalbott.com Jesus” it shows he does mention Jesus. However, I agree with you that he should make his belief in Jesus more explicit on his site, so I’ll suggest that next time I talk to him.

Lois Wrote:When you say,"hence in order to not go to hell (or continue in hell)",are you implying that you believe that people will have the opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him while in hell? If so,how did you come to this conclusion?

Yes, I believe even in hell, God never gives up working in & with people, giving them the opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and accept Him. As is the case now, people might not be ready to even listen to God until He reveals to them their reliance on idols & their inability to save themselves - that can be painful when it happens here & now, but given the imagery used of hell, it’s likely to be much more intense there.

Historically many Christians have believed in some degree of postmortem repentance, sometimes based on passages like 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 3:19, 1 Peter 4.6, Eph 4:8-9, Isa 25, 1Cor 15:29, Mat 12:32, Rev 21:24. That gives some support, however I think it’s also a question of why won’t He? The OT is full of examples of God’s persistence, parables likes the Lost Sheep express it too, even the fact God’s called Father hints at it. Furthermore, I think:

(1) the Bible promises that everyone will be saved
(2) salvation is only by grace, through repentance & faith

As repentance & faith hasn’t occurred from many when they die, therefore holding 1 & 2 implies it occurs after.

”Vic” Wrote:I am thinking I will be fully skeptical on anything Talbott has to say and fully suspend any belief that he has something to offer in the way of Biblically sound doctrine. I think that's how it works on suspended belief. If I can find source quotes for these topics with him, I will provide them.

I think it’s good to test things. I don’t agree with Tom on everything, however I’d also want to ask him if he actually said that, what he means by that, and if he can support that from Scripture because, like you, I would be asking about 1Cor 15