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**Lois** · 06-30-2012, 10:55 PM

Solo,

I have a few questions for you?

1) Do you believe that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice?

a)If so,where in the Bible does Jesus,Paul or anyone else use your terminology("the Greek text says...a better rendering would be..etc)?

The Holy Spirit is our greatest Teacher.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

2) Who taught you that the Bible is not the infallible word of God,man or the Holy Spirit?

3) Who taught you that there was something "wrong" with the translation of the words eternal,for ever and such,the Holy Spirit or man?

I know you think I am just about starting a "mud fight" and probably don't want to respond to me but I will post to you anyway.

I wasn't yelling at you, using caps is my way of making inflection.You don't get to make the rules for how I type.
The way I type things out does not break any forum rules.

I googled your real name and I couldn't help but notice that most of the places where you have posted on other forums or in blog comments you repeatedly direct people to
the books of men.
I have not read everything that you have posted on the net but I have to wonder why you don't direct people to the Bible.
You are constantly pushing these books at people and not the Bible..even your website.
Your website is loaded down with the books of men..It looks like an online book store.(Of course you have every right to have your site the way you want it..this is just my opinion)

Why don't you offer the bible to anyone?

You don't find that kind of odd?

You may call it mud slinging or what have you but I think it's important for people to know where I stand on all this.
I don't mince words and I'm not good at being subtle.

God knows me and my heart.God knows that I use the Sword of the Spirit and not the hug of the spirit.
It's called the Sword of the Spirit for a reason..because it is not all peace ,love and marshmallows..as some would push.

So answer if you would like or don't..you have free choice.

Solo Christo · (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 12:23 AM by Solo Christo.)

Vic Wrote:2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Looking at the concordance (is that allowed?) it appears apōleias (v1) & apōleia (v3) should be translated “destructive/destruction” not “damnable/damnation”.

Vic Wrote:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I think it’s more helpful to translate it more literally “Tartarus” (a Greek name for the under-world) rather than add all the baggage associated with “hell”. Anyway, as it’s “unto judgment” this doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about what happens after judgment.

Vic Wrote:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: "

Sodom is a great example, because God promised to restore them in Ezekiel 16:53.

Vic Wrote:God’s Word is true and His purposes—for the just and the unjust---will be fulfilled.

Amen.

Vic Wrote:Subsequent to my response to 'Joe', was a reply which again renounces and rejects many Scriptures. However, it is an attitude that many have embraced and which must be addressed.

If he is rejecting many Scriptures, then I agree it’s good to address the issue, however I don’t know if he actually is - certainly the next quote seems quite reasonable...

Vic Wrote:
Joe Wrote:"...What we have commonly interpreted in the Bible as "eternal hell" or as being in torment "for ever and ever" or "everlasting" fire can also be translated (and I believe should be translated) as an "age." I am not an expert in Greek and Hebrew, but someone who after reading the Word felt there were too many contradictions in our modern interpretations that needed to be addressed. So I've researched these things and came to this conclusion. I hope you'll research these things with an open mind and a heart for Christ, and you too might come to the same conclusion..."

I agree that it’s good to research the words that are associated with hell, as it appears that unhelpful assumptions have been made in many English translations that miss the nuances of the words (e.g. simply translating Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, & Tartarus, all as "Hell"). Likewise translating Aiôn, Aiônios, & Aïdios, all as “Eternal” is overly simplistic to say the least.

Vic Wrote:Joe's view is not uncommon, as shown in our articles, Taking the Name, the Mark & the Number--Part 3: Taking the Number.

I started reading the linked article but found the reasoning often confusing & semi-conspiratorial :-/

Vic Wrote:Many not only deny the eternal concept of hell but reject the truth of any punishment for those who reject Christ.

I do believe there will be punishment in the age to come.

Sorry page hadn’t refreshed so did see your post.

Lois Wrote:1) Do you believe that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice?

I believe God is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice, but that God’s Word, with the Holy Spirit’s help, reveals God most clearly & is therefore more authoritative than any other text, philosophy, emotion, etc.

Lois Wrote:a)If so,where in the Bible does Jesus,Paul or anyone else use your terminology("the Greek text says...a better rendering would be..etc)?

Sorry your question doesn’t make sense to me. Where in the Bible does Jesus, Paul or anyone else, use computers, use toothbrushes, use English? Nowhere, therefore are you saying we shouldn’t either??

Lois Wrote:The Holy Spirit is our greatest Teacher.

I agree.

Lois Wrote:Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Amen.

Lois Wrote:2) Who taught you that the Bible is not the infallible word of God,man or the Holy Spirit?

I didn’t say the “Bible is not the infallible word of God”... Who taught you that the KJV translators were infallible, man or the Holy Spirit?

Lois Wrote:3) Who taught you that there was something "wrong" with the translation of the words eternal,for ever and such,the Holy Spirit or man?

The Holy Spirit.

Lois Wrote:I wasn't yelling at you, using caps is my way of making inflection.You don't get to make the rules for how I type. The way I type things out does not break any forum rules.

So others don’t misunderstand you, may I humbly suggest you google using caps. I didn’t invent netiquette.

Lois Wrote:I googled your real name and I couldn't help but notice that most of the places where you have posted on other forums or in blog comments you repeatedly direct people to the books of men. I have not read everything that you have posted on the net but I have to wonder why you don't direct people to the Bible. You are constantly pushing these books at people and not the Bible..even your website.
Your website is loaded down with the books of men..It looks like an online book store.(Of course you have every right to have your site the way you want it..this is just my opinion)

Why don't you offer the bible to anyone?

I tried signing up with my real name on this forum but it wouldn’t allow me. I have nothing to hide, my name is Alex Smith, although that’s so common I have no idea what you’ll find if you google it! I personally don’t sell anything on the Internet (even offline, I’ve only ever given away a few books, all my work online is voluntary, except as I work for an Optometrist, I helped design their website), and neither does the forum I help run. Of the thousands of posts I’ve written, few are about books. Many are actually about a Bible passages. I have given Bibles away before, however given the vast number of free online Bibles & the increasingly ubiquitous nature of the Internet, there isn’t a huge demand.

Anyway, like you tried to do with Talbott, again you’re attacking the person, rather than engaging with the Scriptures & points put forward :-(

Lois Wrote:God knows me and my heart.God knows that I use the Sword of the Spirit and not the hug of the spirit.
It's called the Sword of the Spirit for a reason..because it is not all peace ,love and marshmallows..as some would push.

”By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” not by how well you can fight :-| Sure defend your position but please let God’s Words do the cutting, not yours.

Mary · 07-01-2012, 01:54 AM

[quote=Lois said:
I agree but Ecumenicalism and EU share a lot of the same traits.

I've never heard of Jan Karon..so I really can't comment on her without looking her up.

Mary why don't you ask God for clarity on 1 Peter 4:17?

Why does the Bible warn us so often about false teachers and about having sound doctrine?Sound doctrine is essential to our salvation and we must demand it and defend it at all costs.

When a person or group resorts to undermining the Scripture to attempt to make their doctrine work,what would you call that?

When a person or group has to add to scripture or take away from it for their doctrine to make sense.what would you call that?

If someone teaches that one might be saved in a different way than the Bible teaches,what would you call that?

We cannot support, uphold, condone, encourage, promote (by word of mouth or way of life) that which is false doctrine without becoming guilty ourselves.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The Bible also teaches that we are to try the spirits.How do you suppose we are to try the spirits?

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I "try the spirits" by comparing what people claim with the known teaching of the Holy Spirit through the Bible.

John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees "a generation of Vipers" (snakes) (Matt. 3:7). Today, he would be accused of being unloving, unkind, and unchristian.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them " (Eph. 5:11). Reprove means to censure, condemn, find fault, rebuke, and to refute.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

"Preach the word",what word? Any word that pops into our heads?

It doesn't say preach your own brand of philosophy.

It is right to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). It was once delivered and it has never been recalled for revision.[/quote]

Hi Lois,

I'm really sad that this discussion has taken this tone. I'm also disappointed that you have made personal attacks on Alex and abused your status as moderator (a system issue, and not a real status I was given to understand) by looking into his "real name" that is for Vic to do. have you looked me up too?

I'm sorry too, that you have the attitude that you "don't assume" someone is a Christian just because they say they are, and then use your own standard for making up your mind. God's standard is the love between Christians (See Johns's letters), and if I apply that standard to this online discussion I could not say that Alex is not a Christian.

The reason I asked you to explain 1 Peter 4:17 is that you used it to say Alex is renouncing Scripture. I assumed you therefore were clear on the meaning of the verse ( and the context) and could therefore justify exactly what you meant by saying Alex is renouncing Scripture.

2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

I thought that since you were making the accusation, and trusting that you are a Christian as you say you are, I thought you would have applied the above verse; but there's always time.

I also believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us, and guides us in understanding; and that we should be wary of heaping up teachers, but what do you make of these verses in 2 Timothy 2:1-2:

"Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

The Holy Spirit has been gently guiding me to look more deeply into understanding "hell" and examining EU is another part of the process of getting this deeper understanding, but also of the process of giving "diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Solo Christo · 07-01-2012, 05:53 AM

Lois I came across a verse which actually talks about the Hebrew & Greek :-D

Revelation 9:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

**Lois** · 07-01-2012, 11:47 AM

Mary,

Quote:I'm really sad that this discussion has taken this tone. I'm also disappointed that you have made personal attacks on Alex and abused your status as moderator (a system issue, and not a real status I was given to understand) by looking into his "real name" that is for Vic to do. have you looked me up too?

I haven't abused any "status as moderator" as you say.Solo uses his full name on his forum and many places on the net.
I have the right to google anyone I want in and effort to know what I am up against,what they believe in or stand for.That has nothing to do with any perceived status.
It was a system issue.

I apologize if I appear to be to harsh.

Mary quite honestly,I have anguished in my spirit over you.(You have no idea how much)
I have cried for you and I have prayed for you because I feel that you are allowing yourself to be influenced by Alex.
I may have gone about things the wrong way but I have very much felt like a mother bear protecting a cub with you..with Alex being the perceived threat.
You are a grown woman and I have no control over the situation.You have freedom of choice.

Quote:The Holy Spirit has been gently guiding me to look more deeply into understanding "hell" and examining EU is another part of the process of getting this deeper understanding

I personally do not believe that the Holy Spirit guides or leads anyone to study false doctrines to find truth.
I don't believe that the Holy Spirit "guides" anyone to false doctrine for a "deeper understanding".

I'll just leave it that and be done with it.

Solo Christo · 07-02-2012, 05:06 AM

I can't see anyone's real name so I suspect you can only see it because you're a Moderator... I didn't mind at all that you googled me, however I didn't think it was loving or fair of you to make accusations about me (that turned out to be mistaken) without showing any evidence :-|

Anyway, sorry to hear you that you're stressing out about this & that you perceive me as a threat :-( I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit shows you that EU isn't a false doctrine, but that with the Holy Spirit's help, everyone will eventually repent & come to faith in Christ, so that God will receive the loving worship that He deserves from all creation.

I'll continue to post my comments on Vic's article so that when she's free, she'll hopefully get a chance to at least read them, and respond if she has the time.

Vic Wrote:"...It is noteworthy that many in "Christian" leadership denounce the existence of hell and heaven as "places". Bible reviser, B.F. Westcott wrote in 1886 to the Archbishop of Canterbury, "No doubt the language of the rubric is unguarded, but it saves us from the error of connecting the presence of Christ's glorified humanity with place: heaven is a state and not a place."

I think that both are a state & a place.

Vic Wrote:Pope John Paul II announced his views on this very issue, revealing his stand against the Word of God.
The Detroit Free Press Wrote:A week after telling Roman Catholics that heaven was not a place up in the clouds, Pope John Paul II said Wednesday that hell was not a physical place either.

'More than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy,' the pontiff said. . .

He described hell instead as 'the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God. . . . Eternal damnation is not God's work, but. . . our own doing.'

But demons do exist, he said, calling them spirits who have 'already given a definitive 'no' to God.'

The pontiff end-of-millennium guidelines on hell came a week after he told pilgrims heaven was not 'a physical place in the clouds but a living and personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity,' and that a foretaste could be had on earth." 37.

I think both Vic & the Detroit Free Press are misunderstanding the Pope, he says hell is “More than [just] a physical place”, which doesn’t mean he thinks it’s not a physical place. I think there’s some truth to his description of hell too. I also think he right that heaven isn’t an airy-fairy place in the clouds but more important is the relationship with God.

Vic Wrote:....In characteristic Masonic fashion, Pope John Paul II has denied the doctrine of God's wrath and approaching judgment against those who reject Him.

Masonic?? I’m not sure part of quote from a newspaper is the best way to establish the Pope’s doctrines, but I admit he does appear to be framing hell as more human driven than God driven, however from my experience that’s not unusual in Christian circles. Personally I think “hell” is used by God to help them come to repentance & faith, so I think God is very active there.

Vic Wrote:Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I’ve read in a few places that “brimstone” is sulphur & that’s an important anti-infection medicine. Biblically fire is also often associated with purity & cleansing e.g. Isa 6:5-7

Vic Wrote:20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

I believe ”for the eons of the eons” is a better translation. So it certainly seems to suggests a long time, but not necessarily infinite. e.g. it could be for the first few eons of many eons. Alternatively given the phrase appears in probably the most non-literalistic book in the Bible, it could simply be hyperbole. e.g. like when we say, “it’s going to take forever to get to work in this traffic!”

Solo Christo · 07-03-2012, 05:46 AM

Vic Wrote:20:14-15 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

I’ve always found this verse puzzling as Hebrews 9:27 says “man is destined to die once” i.e. not twice :? Anyway, putting that aside, again it depends a lot on what the imagery of the “lake of fire” symbolises - what the purpose of God’s punishment is.

Vic Wrote:The denial of the existence of heaven and hell contradicts many Scriptures and eliminates the consequences for sin, including worship of the Beast and taking the mark.

A qualified yes, as I believe in the existence of both, it’s just I don’t think an everlasting hell is what we find in the Bible, nor does it work very well philosophically e.g. if love means always wanting the best for the other, and being God means you have unlimited time/wisdom/power, then being the God who is love implies being able to achieve the best for everyone (which obviously isn’t everlasting conscious torment).

Vic Wrote:Those who take the mark or worship the Beast are warned in Revelation 14:9-11, that they shall receive the wrath of God, and "will be tormented with fire and brimstone . . . and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

See previous comment about “forever and ever”, although it should also be noted here that the smoke from Sodom’s(?) destruction in the OT was also described as going up “forever” and that only lasted probably a few weeks i.e. if you go to the site of Sodom in the Middle East today, there’s no smoking ruin.

Vic Wrote:In the preceding verses it should be noted that those who worship the Beast and take the mark, will do so because they are deceived. We can assume they will receive the mark believing it is a 'good' and religious thing to do, since many will be deceived by signs and lying wonders, especially the miracles of the false prophet, according to Revelation 13:12-14.

Sure, I think that’s a fair assumption.

Vic Wrote:Well, it may be a nice thought—that is-- that hell and eternal torment are not forever, and is merely 'an age'.

It’s interesting that our heart witnesses to us that it’s a good or “nice” thought. I don’t think there will be anything “merely” about the punishment! The intensity of the situation people will find themselves in, is probably the clearest thing about the imagery 9456

Vic Wrote:However, the same word for ‘everlasting’ hell, everlasting or eternal torment is the same Hebrew word for ‘everlasting’ or ‘eternal’ God. Everlasting also has the same meaning in the Greek word ‘everlasting’ hell, everlasting or eternal fire and everlasting God. It also has the same meaning as ‘everlasting’ life.

What Joe and others are saying by the definition of everlasting meaning ‘an age,’ is that God is not eternal—that is forever and without end, which also, according to that same meaning, negates His promise that those who have Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will have ‘eternal’ life.’ Eternal life is in that 'an age' definition, also just a limited time or a limited age of eternal life.

Please see earlier in this thread regarding what my research has found regarding aionios/olam.

Solo Christo · 07-03-2012, 07:12 PM

Vic Wrote:John 3: 15 "That whosoever believeth in him [Christ] should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

Btw, notice using “eonian” instead of “eternal” would work in this passage. There’s prima facie tension between v17 & v18, i.e. is He condemning or not condemning? I’ve always been under the impression “the world” was synonymous with creation or humanity, what do you think it means?

Vic Wrote:The dictionary definition of everlasting---lasting forever; never ending or stopping….an eternity.

The dictionary definition of eternal---without beginning or ending; lasting throughout all time; always and forever the same; lasting forever. Everlasting emphasizes having no end, but going on and on.

Dictionaries are written by uninspired men so I don’t take any notice of them ;-P Seriously though, I’m aware of the modern definition of “eternal”, but is that how the Church Fathers used it? I would suggest one of the main reasons it’s still translated “eternal” is because of the influence of the Vulgate tradition i.e. reliance on Jerome’s translation into Latin, not the Koine Greek usage, something I think we know more about now than he did, because of the discovery of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri & Dead Sea Scrolls.

Vic Wrote:In the Old Testament, everlasting, such as is found in Daniel 12:1-2

Quote:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
has the same definition as/and including, the definition of everlasting God, as found in Gen. 21:33 [ And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.];

Yes, the it’s the same word as far as I tell - life, contempt, & God, are all eonian - lasting, beyond sight, over the horizon. The Bible tells us more about each, just not using the adjective olam/aionios.

Vic Wrote:Isaiah 40:28 [ Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.] & 45:17 [But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.]

Again Isaiah 40:28 describes God as eonian, except in this verse it helpfully tells us more about God i.e. that He is the Creator, that He never faint/weary, that He has unsearchable understanding. Likewise in Isaiah 45:17 find the common Biblical theme of Israel being saved with eonian salvation. Oddly the KJV translates aion/aeon as “world”??

Solo Christo · 07-04-2012, 04:20 AM

Vic Wrote:The Hebrew word everlasting as found in Strong's Concordance is-- 5769 `owlam, o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703.

It’s strange how Strong justifies the huge change from undefined duration to an infinite duration, simply by saying “practically”?! Also given the Strong's Concordance was written before the Oxyrhynchus Papyri was discovered, I don’t think it doesn’t sufficiently takes into account the critically important Kione Greek.

Vic Wrote:The Hebrew word everlasting is also found with a different reference in Habakkuk. 1:12 [Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.]

This is an example of H6924 not H5769.

Vic Wrote:Strong's Hebrew ---6924--qedem, keh'-dem or qedmah {kayd'-maw}; from 6923; the front, of place (absolutely, the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward):--aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever(-lasting), forward, old, past. Compare 6926.

Again it’s odd how Strong mixes the undefined (ancient), with the infinite (everlasting) - that’s a wide semantic range.

Vic Wrote:Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting[H5703] mountains were scattered, the perpetual[H5769/G166] hills did bow: his ways are everlasting[H5769/G166].

This is a great example because it shows an inconsistency in translation & I assume you don’t thing the mountains or hills have always existed...

Vic Wrote:everlasting mountains—5703--`ad, ad ; from 5710; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):--eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

I still don’t get the jump to “eternity”, especially when surely mountains aren’t... :? Also “world without end” is an odd expression, given I thought the world was coming to an end, so that God could create a New Creation?

Vic Wrote:His ways are everlasting---5769---above.

I agree with the statement but don’t think we get that information from H5769.

Mary · 07-04-2012, 05:20 AM

(07-01-2012 11:47 AM)Lois Wrote: Mary,

Quote:I'm really sad that this discussion has taken this tone. I'm also disappointed that you have made personal attacks on Alex and abused your status as moderator (a system issue, and not a real status I was given to understand) by looking into his "real name" that is for Vic to do. have you looked me up too?

I haven't abused any "status as moderator" as you say.Solo uses his full name on his forum and many places on the net.
I have the right to google anyone I want in and effort to know what I am up against,what they believe in or stand for.That has nothing to do with any perceived status.
It was a system issue.

I apologize if I appear to be to harsh.

Mary quite honestly,I have anguished in my spirit over you.(You have no idea how much)
I have cried for you and I have prayed for you because I feel that you are allowing yourself to be influenced by Alex.
I may have gone about things the wrong way but I have very much felt like a mother bear protecting a cub with you..with Alex being the perceived threat.
You are a grown woman and I have no control over the situation.You have freedom of choice.

Quote:The Holy Spirit has been gently guiding me to look more deeply into understanding "hell" and examining EU is another part of the process of getting this deeper understanding

I personally do not believe that the Holy Spirit guides or leads anyone to study false doctrines to find truth.
I don't believe that the Holy Spirit "guides" anyone to false doctrine for a "deeper understanding".

I'll just leave it that and be done with it.

Hi Lois,
I'm sorry you have been in anguish for me, and thank you for praying for me. I wish you would have read my posts in this thread, and on the original Universalism thread I referred you too, as perhaps that would have spared you some anguish. But maybe not, we are all vulnerable and it's good to be cautious.

That's why I find it odd that you can be so concerned for me, yet in the Universalism/EU thread you encourage people to read up and find out for themselves about EU and Universalism - as this is exactly what I am
doing. I believe it is very important to really understand something before you can discuss it properly and if necessary challenge it.

That's why I haven't rushed out and googled Talbott and others to make decisions about him based on others assessments of him, and on how many or few times he mentions Jesus on his website. I tried to purchase his book on Kindle , but was unable, and Alex kindly lent me his copy.

I am a grown woman as you say, and my choice is to study things as well as I can and hold them up to God's Word. Sometimes we can react to something with fear and then anger - but I believe that we can trust God to guide us and show us the truth if we are diligent and careful and prayerful, and seek to understand his word.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit will lead us into a false doctrine either, nevertheless he has lead me to look more deeply into "hell" and also EU. If it is not the Holy Spirit, it is also you, encouraging me to read up and find out more about this doctrine myself.

I appreciate that you are a plainspeaking woman - but so am I and I believe we are to speak the truth in love, so once again, I refer you back to the verses I quoted from Jude.