Will God Say "Just Kidding" about Eternity?

[Solo Christo]

Vic Wrote:The Greek for everlasting as found in

Matt 18:8 [cast into everlasting fire],

Matt.19:29 [everlasting life];

Matt. 25:41 [Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:];

Matt. 25:46 [ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.];

John 3:16; 2 Peter 1:11 [everlasting kingdom];

2 Thess 1:8-9 [In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;];

Galatians 6:8 ” For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

Sure, aionios is the Greek word underlying each of those passages. However, the same word is underlying:
“ancient hills” in Hab 3:6 and

For Jer 18:15, ESV Wrote:But my people have forgotten me; they make offerings to false gods; they made them stumble in their ways, in the ancient roads, and to walk into side roads, not the highway,

For Ps 77:5, ESV Wrote:I consider the days of old, the years long ago.

For Eze 26:20, ESV Wrote:then I will make you go down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the world below, among ruins from of old, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set beauty in the land of the living.

For Proverbs 22:28, ESV Wrote:Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set.

For Proverbs 23:10, ESV Wrote:Do not move an ancient landmark or enter the fields of the fatherless

For Eze 36:2, ESV Wrote:Thus says the Lord GOD: Because the enemy said of you, 'Aha!' and, 'The ancient heights have become our possession,'

Whilst not as important as the above, it’s also used of finite things in other Koine Greek texts. e.g. Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to aionios imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years. Likewise The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. (Thanks Paidion for pointing these out)

Vic Wrote:Strong's Greek ---166-- aionios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

An overly simplistic definition that doesn’t take into account the range of uses in Koine Greek, although in Strong’s defence I don’t think there was much Koine Greek available for him to refer to when he wrote the above.

Vic Wrote:165 is the root word—not the actual word for everlasting as suggested by those who say that everlasting is an age.

I agree.

Vic Wrote:165. aiwn aion, ahee-ohn'; from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

I think his definition is right until he tries to guess the meaning “by extension” :-|

[Solo Christo]

Vic Wrote:Jude 6 also presents another reference to everlasting. ‘6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting[G126] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal[G166] fire.

It’s quite odd that the everlasting chains are only until Judgment Day, because generally aidios has a narrow semantic range with authors, especially in contrast with aionios. I guess the author really wanted to emphasize that the chains were unbreakable.

Vic Wrote:Strong's Greek ---126 aidiov aidios, ah-id'-ee-os; from 104; everduring (forward and backward, or forward only):--eternal, everlasting.

I think that’s a reasonable definition.

Vic Wrote:104. aei aei, ah-eye'; from an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever," by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly; --always, ever.
Always—means forever. Eternal or everlasting torment or eternal fire—which has the same Greek def. as 166.

I agreed until the last sentence because that’s only vaguely correct in Classical Greek (e.g. some Classical authors interchanged aidios & aionios, but much less so in Koine Greek.). Also Plato’s definition was much closer to timelessness, than everlasting (in time), which isn’t mentioned above.

Vic Wrote:Matthew 12:32 also shows that eternal or everlasting means forever, as does God’s judgment against the wicked. “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven[G863] him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven[G863] him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

I’ve thought, read (e.g. Mark 3:28-29) & prayed about this some more, and I think this implies that whilst someone is speaking against the Holy Spirit (be that in this age or the next), they won’t be forgiven & reconciled to God. However I believe God is able help them stop speaking against the Holy Spirit.

It’s also interesting to look at the semantic range of G863 (e.g. word underlies 146 words in the KJV: leave x52, forgive x47, suffer x14, let x8, forsake x6, let alone x6, misc x13). It’s possible that speaking against the Holy Spirit is something that can’t be just let-go/pardoned but requires God’s purging fire. I’m still thinking this through, but it seems plausible, an extension of the concept of discipline/sanctification, which is often painful but for our good.

Vic Wrote:Greek ‘everlasting or eternal' fire found in Matt 5:22 [Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell[G1067] fire.] ,

Neither the word everlasting or hell appears in this verse, the word is géenna (according to the concordance: a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom", a physical place outside Jerusalem).

Vic Wrote:7:[19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire].;

13:40-42 [40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth].;

Yes, but it’s important to see how the Bible uses the image (we are definitely talking about imagery e.g. fruit, tares) of fire (see p2 of this thread).

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The other thing I should've mentioned in regards to Matt 12:32 is that the word there is aion (eon) not world, and the Bible speaks of multiple eons. i.e. the non-forgiven eons could be sub-set of the eons.

[Solo Christo]

Another thought, the "eternal/unforgivable" sin passages aren't just difficult for EUs, but they should be for any Christian, because at face value, it's saying there's a sin greater than grace (whereas Paul tells us grace is far greater than sin), something the blood of Christ is ineffective for?! Equally problematic is that it's not clear what "speaking against the Holy Spirit" is, which means how can we be confident we haven't inadvertently done it... e.g. "all have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God" "No one seeks God", etc. :-/

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I don't think these passages are impossible (I've already offered some suggestions - another one I just found is that it's an unforgiven sin, rather than unforgivable sin), I just think, in light of everything else that the NT says about sin, forgiveness, etc., they need to be approached very carefully.

[Lois]

I have been prayerfully considering how to address you Solo, so that it does not come across as a personal attack.
I would like for the thread to continue on topic however there are a few things that must be addressed.

Quote:I can't see anyone's real name so I suspect you can only see it because you're a Moderator

I cannot as a moderator see anyone's names or personal information.Vic through private mail mentioned to me that an EU site had written an article about one of her articles.
By doing a google search of the term evangelical universalist(or universalism) your site comes up a few times so it was not hard to go to the site, look for the article and find your real name there out in the open.
It was not hard to piece together that you are the same person because you are coping and pasting the exact same answers that you used there and posting them here.

Quote:I didn't think it was loving or fair of you to make accusations about me (that turned out to be mistaken) without showing any evidence

Um, I never said I was mistaken about anything.I apologized for maybe coming across as harsh or seemly attacking.


Solo, you had to be warned here about dropping the names of authors and posting quotes from their books.

I am not promoting you or your site..but if someone goes there they can see for themselves that it looks like an online book store.
That is not a false accusation and I am not mistaken when I say such things..even in the google description it sounds like a book store.
There is no mention of God.



I stand by my opinion that you are a book promoter.





And more, you even give a link so people can buy it off amazon but I cropped the link out.(I can't help but wonder if you make money off the sales of all these books?)





Evidently your plea to get people to read and review the book worked and you are hoping to get them to read the next edition.



I only took one off Facebook.





So you see I don't believe that I mistakenly call you the promoter of the books of men..and it is all over your website as well.

[Solo Christo]

Lois Wrote:I have been prayerfully considering how to address you Solo, so that it does not come across as a personal attack.

Thank you, that’s honestly appreciated.

Lois Wrote:I would like for the thread to continue on topic however there are a few things that must be addressed.

I agree to about both.

I Wrote:I can't see anyone's real name so I suspect you can only see it because you're a Moderator

Lois Wrote:I cannot as a moderator see anyone's names or personal information.

No probs, my apologies, I was just going by what the Moderators on my forum can see.

Lois Wrote:Vic through private mail mentioned to me that an EU site had written an article about one of her articles.
By doing a google search of the term evangelical universalist(or universalism) your site comes up a few times so it was not hard to go to the site, look for the article and find your real name there out in the open.
It was not hard to piece together that you are the same person because you are coping and pasting the exact same answers that you used there and posting them here.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. Hopefully you noticed that I began posting my response there before here, as I was unaware of this forum. I had intended to completely finish my response then try to get in contact with Vic. However, once Mary informed me that this forum existed, I thought it might be more helpful to Vic to post my response here in smaller chunks so that we could discuss things along the way (I didn’t think she would be interested in joining my forum, although either of you are welcome to, as we have other non-EUs there). As I value feedback from peers, I thought I may as well continue posting in the original thread too (also I’ve had my posts deleted without warning on other people's’ forums so I see it as a backup of the many hours I’m spending on this).

I Wrote:I didn't think it was loving or fair of you to make accusations about me (that turned out to be mistaken) without showing any evidence

Lois Wrote:Um, I never said I was mistaken about anything.I apologized for maybe coming across as harsh or seemly attacking.

I think you were mistaken, for the reasons I gave & will give below.

Lois Wrote:Solo, you had to be warned here about dropping the names of authors and posting quotes from their books.

Sure, although I think it’s an odd rule (e.g. usually it’s helpful to read/learn from other mature Christians, even if they aren’t inspired. I assume that’s why you frequently quote the KJV translators, and I was simply doing the same with Talbott), I’m willing to abide by it so that you don’t ban me.

Lois Wrote:I am not promoting you or your site..but if someone goes there they can see for themselves that it looks like an online book store.
That is not a false accusation and I am not mistaken when I say such things..even in the google description it sounds like a book store.

I stand by my opinion that you are a book promoter.

LOL, it’s funny what Google randomly decided to put as a description, I thought I had told it to say, “A Christian forum for discussing Evangelical Universalism”. I can now see why you thought what you did. However, if you go to the front page, you’ll see that of the 45,000 posts on the site, only 67 of them are in the “Useful Materials” section . If you look further down the page, you’ll see we cover a huge range of topics, most centred on God & the Bible. Hopefully you’ll notice that of the 2,430 posts I’ve posted, over almost 2 years, I’ve only recommended (as far as I know, no one sells anything on the forum, although a few people have given away books) 8 books. That’s a very small percentage of what I’ve posted. Seriously, how can I prove that to you? (remember I’m not allowed to post links!)

Lois Wrote:There is no mention of God.

if you google “site:evangelicaluniversalist.com God” you’ll find about 17,100 results... 66,200 if you include “theo*”


When I found out my friend Robin was writing a 2nd edition, I offered to help him in, which I did. There was nothing in it for me, except the satisfaction of helping someone who had helped me discover the truth about EU.

Lois Wrote:And more, you even give a link so people can buy it off amazon but I cropped the link out.(I can't help but wonder if you make money off the sales of all these books?)

My wife laughed when I just told her that, I’ve given away almost $1000 worth of books now, and haven’t made a cent (being mindful of Paul’s warning that people are quick to judge those who profit off them).

Lois Wrote:Evidently your plea to get people to read and review the book worked and you are hoping to get them to read the next edition.

Asking people for feedback/criticism is not a sin! Of course I want people to read the book, I think it presents the strongest biblical theological case for Evangelical Universalism

Lois Wrote:

I only took one off Facebook.

I was excited that Robin had finally finished the edition, I know it took a lot of work.

Lois Wrote:So you see I don't believe that I mistakenly call you the promoter of the books of men..and it is all over your website as well.

Again, I can now see why you unfortunately came to that conclusion. It’s true that I’ve recommended a few books over the years, however it’s untrue that’s my focus or main topic, and it’s untrue that I profit in any way from recommending books.

Lois Wrote:and it is all over your website as well.

Please could you clarify what you think is my website?

It saddens me that you appear to have something against reading Christian books & recommending them to people :-( I read the Bible daily, I only read books occasionally (of the 8 books above, I’ve only finished reading 4 of them over about 2.5 years!) so I’m not saying they should replace reading the Bible, but it’s helpful to see how other Christians have tackled issues the Bible raises. We aren’t islands, we are part of the global community/body called the Church, we’re told to edify & teach one another, one of the ways we do that is by writing things for others to read.

[Vic]

Temporarily closing thread until I can catch up and respond. My apologies for the delay. Company and family needs have prioroty. THanks for your patience.

[Vic]

OK so I am opening the thread but ask that you, Solo, hold off posting until I am somewhat caught up. No point going further until I can deal with what's here. Thanks. Might take a bit, but in the meantime I do not want to see any more personal attacks, including subtle ones, as there have been many of those, as well as those not so subtle, here and in other threads. Thank you.

[Solo Christo]

(07-09-2012 02:48 PM)Vic Wrote:  OK so I am opening the thread but ask that you, Solo, hold off posting until I am somewhat caught up. No point going further until I can deal with what's here. Thanks.

That's totally fine

(07-09-2012 02:48 PM)Vic Wrote:  [color=#1E90FF]Might take a bit, but in the meantime I do not want to see any more personal attacks, including subtle ones, as there have been many of those, as well as those not so subtle, here and in other threads. Thank you.

sorry I honestly wasn't aware I'd made any person attacks against anyone?? Please show me where so that I may apologise for them and avoiding doing it again.

[Vic]

Don't worry about it, Alex. I wasn't just meaning you. I just wanted a blanket statement so things settle down in the conversation and should have split the statement from what I mentioned directly to you. However statements made can easily be viewed as an attack, whether intended or not. That's the problem with writing things rather than face to face.

[Vic]

I have been reading back through this thread and am actually quite appalled. The accusations and false accusations, the attempted interference in what could have been an official moderator posting, the implication and false accusation Lois was sneaking around spying on peoples 'real name'--which Alex, if your full name hadn't matched a heavily known spammer name, would have been what you had used as your nic on this forum to begin with-or did you forget what it took to get you onto this forum, and then suggesting to know it or find out about it was unloving and unfair, the put downs about the tone of the thread, ....the copying/pasting of all your stuff, Alex from your own forum Alex, the lack of discussion about my actual article versus full promotion of EU....which was to be discussed in the other thread....I am actually sickened by it all. Fully and completely disgusted. It appears actually quite pointless to attempt to discuss my article, but rather just shut this thread down and pursue the topic in the specific Universalism versus thread. What a waste of time this one is.


I am reopening this thread to discussion. Wednesday August 15.