Universalism versus Evangelical Universalism

[Vic]

Open discussion! Universalism--will everyone be saved? Do all roads really lead to God?

[strefanash]

all roads lead FROM God, not to him, and we as sinners are frantically running down these AWAY From him.

Universalism is naive about the nature of sin.

I know for a fact that if i finally stubbornly and determindedly insist that he leave me alone HE WILL DO SO. This will be, IMO, blasphemy of the Spirit if it ever happened, for if he left me alone at my final behest, that solitude would last for all eternity and hell would be the place for it

---

Besides, despite the fudging of the issues that syncretists are fond of doing, all the other Gods logcally contradict each other as well as contradict the ONE lord. They cannot all be right. ON this simple logical ground they do not all elad to the same place

Moreover those liberal types who hope to reduce all religion to ethics (that's what they are saying, I think,) are patronizing genuine religious belief.

[sheep wrecked]

(02-05-2009 03:42 AM)strefanash Wrote:  all roads lead FROM God, not to him, and we as sinners are frantically running down these AWAY From him.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. In Christ, we are no longer considered sinners, but the righteousness of God in Christ. We still sin, but in Christ, we are forgiven.

1Co 1:30 But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2Co 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Quote:I know for a fact that if i finally stubbornly and determindedly insist that he leave me alone HE WILL DO SO. This will be, IMO, blasphemy of the Spirit if it ever happened, for if he left me alone at my final behest, that solitude would last for all eternity and hell would be the place for it

Why would you insist that God leave you alone? Why would you even think that? If you are a child of God, you know Him as Father. It is not question of blasphemy, but of acceptance and knowledge of who God is; trust in His ability to be faithful, when we are not; and belief that He will keep us as His own, because He loves us and has made His home within us. If we choose to throw that away, then it is us that has left Him, not the other way around.

1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called to the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he stays faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stayed with him.

[wiredgirl23]

Dos it not have to do with One World Religion and ultimately with the so-called Unity of the World where they try to bring all the Nations and religions together? If it is so....then I have to say it is wrong. Jesus says in the Word that He is the only way ...no other way leads to Heaven and ultimately to the Father God. They are trying more and more to push for a one world religion, where they try to unite the different so-called faiths together to a one-world religion. Where sooner or later we as Christians will be forced to deny Christ and pledge a legions to a false god. That is why I believe it is so very important to learn the Word of God as long we still have somewhat the freedom to do so. We need to stand firm in Jesus Christ. Be of good courage and strong in the Lord. At least that is what I know so far.
Any input on that? I would like to hear your take on that?
Love In HIM
wiregirl23

[Vic]

(01-04-2010 11:28 PM)wiredgirl23 Wrote:  Dos it not have to do with One World Religion and ultimately with the so-called Unity of the World where they try to bring all the Nations and religions together? If it is so....then I have to say it is wrong. Jesus says in the Word that He is the only way ...no other way leads to Heaven and ultimately to the Father God. They are trying more and more to push for a one world religion, where they try to unite the different so-called faiths together to a one-world religion. Where sooner or later we as Christians will be forced to deny Christ and pledge a legions to a false god. That is why I believe it is so very important to learn the Word of God as long we still have somewhat the freedom to do so. We need to stand firm in Jesus Christ. Be of good courage and strong in the Lord. At least that is what I know so far.
Any input on that? I would like to hear your take on that?
Love In HIM
wiregirl23

Hi wiredgirl,

Yes, it does have to do with the Unity, but it really has to do with unity in diversity--at least the surface view of diversity. It all comes from the same spiritual source and will have the ultimate end of being united against Christ.

Your reasoning against it is right on. Jesus is the only way and those who reject Him reject that Truth. I couldn't agree with you more about learning and knowing the Word. Without it we cannot discern between truth and error, or be able to stand, being fully armoured against all attacks.

[enricoy]

I believe it was the Orientalist Max Muller who said that there is no
such thing as a false religion unless you were willing to call a child a
false man.

I wonder if Muller's sentiment does or does not represent the point of
view of the "Universalist" Quakers in this discussion. It does extend a
certain validity to all religions, but it does not claim that all
religions are equally mature. If anything, it even presupposes that
religions are _not_ equally mature. I don't really know if Muller would
have considered Christianity to be one of the "mature" religions or one
of the "childish" ones.

Peace,
Hedgehog

[prayerwarrior35]

(01-04-2010 11:28 PM)wiredgirl23 Wrote:  Dos it not have to do with One World Religion and ultimately with the so-called Unity of the World where they try to bring all the Nations and religions together? If it is so....then I have to say it is wrong. Jesus says in the Word that He is the only way ...no other way leads to Heaven and ultimately to the Father God. They are trying more and more to push for a one world religion, where they try to unite the different so-called faiths together to a one-world religion. Where sooner or later we as Christians will be forced to deny Christ and pledge a legions to a false god. That is why I believe it is so very important to learn the Word of God as long we still have somewhat the freedom to do so. We need to stand firm in Jesus Christ. Be of good courage and strong in the Lord. At least that is what I know so far.
Any input on that? I would like to hear your take on that?
Love In HIM
wiregirl23

I think there's alot more to universalism than anyone wants to believe, thankfully it's all available in the Holy Bible. If we're furthering God's will then it's a good thing, but to go against God's will is a bad thing. In this case your talking about a gathering of all nations or all religions or all christians at least being bad, but God would have us all worship together: and satan is known as the accuser of the bretheren. I see many churches divided on topics that shouldn't be divided, they aren't black/white topics but open topics where we can all share common overall understandings and strive for better understanding. Many churches are divided by their spiritual gifts as well, it's the body of Christ in pieces, we all have different roles and different gifts but they all compliment each other for the greater good. I believe we should celebrate our differences with kindness and understanding (rather than anger and spite) and do our part to do God's will on earth (join together as the family of God).

BTW, denomination is from the root word denominate which you'll recall from basic math is the bottom number in a fraction or the number you DIVIDE by, thus a denomination is the division or separation... Show me any bible verse that supports the division of the body of Christ.

As far as universalism goes, it's the will of God as stated biblically that he desires for all his children to be saved, or how the "Good Shephard" will go after his entire flock of sheep, or how God died for the sins of the whole world, or how God gives ALL THINGS to Christ and how everything given to Christ will be saved. There's alot of supporting documentation out there, but then others about how the wicked will have an end, or the saved will trample on their ashes, or the second death. I think all Christians should believe in universalism because doing anything else would be passing judgement on others which is strictly forbidden and hope/pray for the best since this is God's will and we are supposed to pray for his will to be accomplished, but our loving Father may still destroy the wicked in the end, it's going to be his judgement alone that is important, I'm hoping / praying for the best though, and the fact that the Bible speaks about persons who were able to debate with God and had good outcomes, I think we should all pray for the salvation of mankind, let his will be our will.

[Mary]

Prayerwarrior: from Noahide Covenant thread.



Mary Wrote:
So what do you think Hebrews 11: 6 means?
Did you read the thread on British Israelism at all before joining this one?
No I didn't read the other thread, sorry.
A co-worker who served in the military told me that in the trenches when death was imminent that even the hardcore atheists were praying. I believe deep down that all humans have faith in their creator even if they try to convince themselves otherwise. But still, living a good life and treating others well and doing so in the name of Jesus will lead more people toward faith than screaming at them with a bullhorn saying your going to burn in hell, WWJD?

I would prefer to discuss this under Universalism if you don't mind rather than have the Noahic Covenant thread derailed, especially since it is already linked to the BI thread, and that is twisty and windy enough!

I hope you will have read the BI thread by the time you come to this response. I hope you will also consider what "whosoever" means in John 3: 16. Universalism and BI seem to come at "whoseover" differently, yet both in are error.

You ask WWJD? well what did He do? Think of the rich man who came to him asking what he must do to be saved. What did Jesus answer Him? What about Nicodemas?
What does Hebrews 11:6 mean to you ?

So if your soldier in a trench prays in desperation and panic, and God brings him out of that situation, and then as he continues to live his life he dismisses the experience and says he didn't really mean it, it was just panic . What will you make of Romans: 1 vs 28?

I agree we should pray for God's will to be done, and we should pray for the unsaved, but we should also like Paul, not be ashamed of the gospel - we should share the Good News and teach our children. It is more than just "hoping for the best". I think Christians should believe in Jesus and be wary of "isms" no matter hopeful and warm and fuzzy they make you feel.

[Mary]

Prayerwarrior:

"So do you really think that one of the sheep will still be lost and in the end Jesus fails? Or do you think that salvation through Jesus was adequate and God's will has/will be done. Even if you think Jesus' death was not good enough for the salvation of the world (even though he died for all our sins, and we're saved by grace) shouldn't you still pray / hope / believe in salvation for the whole world because that's what God wants, and we read in the bible where God has spared the whole world because of ONE person (yes Noah) so even if you thought Jesus wasn't good enough you could still plead with God to spare your fellow humans, isn't that what it means to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR anyways and didn't Abraham plead with God to spare an entire city and God listened and agreed?

What did Jesus say? Look at Mark Chapter 6 verse 7 -12:

"And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
And they went out, and preached that men should repent."

So yes Abraham pleaded for the city. But can you not see that there are and were, and will be people who will choose not to receive Him.

---

Prayerwarrior:
"What if all christians pleaded for the salvation of the whole world rather than passing judgement on others and telling them they are going to be supremely punished, don't you think this world would be a better place to live, don't you think Christians would have a better reputation, and don't you think Christians would be living closer to how Jesus taught us to live and treat others?"



What if we plead for the salvation the world and the world doesn't want to be saved?
To me your question goes nowhere.
The answer goes back to John 3 :16. - whoever out of all mankind, believes in Him - is saved.

Why do you think, because I believe John 3:16 that I do not love my neighbour?

Do you believe salvation is in how we live and how we treat others?

If I tell my neighbour, who believes in "god" and contacts "psychics and 'angels" and who is happy in the belief that god speaks to her in all sorts of ways except through the bible, and is happy with her "relationship" with God, that she cannot have a relationship with God except through Jesus,

John 14 vs 6 : Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

am I being unloving? You see, she has 'faith' as your soldier in the trench does, but because she has not seen Jesus, she has not seen the Father - God the Father. Instead her relationship is with the "prince of the air" Should I say nothing to her of this deceptive 'faith, and let her follow her 'god' to hell? without telling her the truth. I don't need to plead for her salvation. - Jesus has already provided it she only needs to reach out and accept it in faith and repentance. I can plead with her though, but then I might make her angry because she will feel judged: or get a reputation of being a bible basher. What to do? leave her alone and hope for the best? - that's universalism's answer?

[prayerwarrior35]

(07-21-2011 08:04 AM)Mary Wrote:  What did Jesus say? Look at Mark Chapter 6 verse 7 -12:

"And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
And they went out, and preached that men should repent."

So yes Abraham pleaded for the city. But can you not see that there are and were, and will be people who will choose not to receive Him.

---

Prayerwarrior:
"What if all christians pleaded for the salvation of the whole world rather than passing judgement on others and telling them they are going to be supremely punished, don't you think this world would be a better place to live, don't you think Christians would have a better reputation, and don't you think Christians would be living closer to how Jesus taught us to live and treat others?"



What if we plead for the salvation the world and the world doesn't want to be saved?
To me your question goes nowhere.
The answer goes back to John 3 :16. - whoever out of all mankind, believes in Him - is saved.

Why do you think, because I believe John 3:16 that I do not love my neighbour?

Do you believe salvation is in how we live and how we treat others?

If I tell my neighbour, who believes in "god" and contacts "psychics and 'angels" and who is happy in the belief that god speaks to her in all sorts of ways except through the bible, and is happy with her "relationship" with God, that she cannot have a relationship with God except through Jesus,

John 14 vs 6 : Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

am I being unloving? You see, she has 'faith' as your soldier in the trench does, but because she has not seen Jesus, she has not seen the Father - God the Father. Instead her relationship is with the "prince of the air" Should I say nothing to her of this deceptive 'faith, and let her follow her 'god' to hell? without telling her the truth. I don't need to plead for her salvation. - Jesus has already provided it she only needs to reach out and accept it in faith and repentance. I can plead with her though, but then I might make her angry because she will feel judged: or get a reputation of being a bible basher. What to do? leave her alone and hope for the best? - that's universalism's answer?

Ezekiel 16:48-50
As surely as I am the living LORD God, the people of Sodom and its nearby villages were never as sinful as you. They were arrogant and spoiled; they had everything they needed and still refused to help the poor and needy. They thought they were better than everyone else, and they did things I hate. And so I destroyed them.

We find that Sodom is a symbol of sin, death, punishment (basically the end of the wicked), but what is the final end for Sodom after Jesus redeemed the world?
Ezekiel 16:53 53 ‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them.
Why would our God do that, because no matter what he still loves his children?

To answer your question, yes simply hoping for the best is a better answer than telling her she's entering into a paganistic torture chamber. Seeking guidance of sages, or psychis is a sin as we see it goes against God's own will, but even God himself doesn't force his will on anyone, we choose to follow or go astray, it doesn't change his love for his children as we see in the prodigal son. You could try and explain why she doesn't need psychics, or just be a nice neighbor and explain how your own experiences have helped your life.

By the way, what did Jesus do when the rich man asked how he could enter into life? He told him to obey the commandments, when asked which ones, he named off 5 of the 10 commandments, 5 that dealt with how to treat others, the man stated he has kept all of these, then Jesus said he could sell all his possessions and give his wealth to the poor to be perfect. You see Jesus was more focused on how he lived his life today rather than what he had to do to enter into eternal life, is it because being a Christian according to Jesus isn't about how to get "there" but instead how to live a better life "here"?

Had Jesus come to condemn the world, or to save the world? John 3:17